Tim-ONeil Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Lots of debate here... but the bottom line is that we were lied to. The bottom line is that the Cartel Market is not what we expected because it is not what we were told it would be. It's a total scam. It was good interacting with you on the forums. Good luck in the future. When they warn you to stop posting something and you ignore that you know what happens next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Setting your own expectations as to what comes out of a grab bag is on you. Nothing anywhere promises what you will get in it. If you are unwilling to accept that then you simply do not participate. This is precisely what chronic gamblers say too: one more lever pull; one more double up; one more hand. What purpose is there to buy said boxes, to begin with, if not to pull that PRECISE thing you wanted? Because if you buy them for ALL possible drops, well... the argument if this is gamble or not is the least of your problems... Edited October 25, 2012 by Styxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) They only legislative evidence presented so far is that is it classed as a lottery, feel free to provide some to the contray (which would ironically then prove it was unlicensed gambling. ). It is legally classed as a lottery in many places (but take the US what is something in one state isn't in another), whether it's classed as that everywhere, I dunno. And again, even if your premise that it is lottery (which it is not), not all lottery falls under legal jurisdiction for gaming/lottery laws. The PTA at my daughters school for example has several lotteries each year, and it does not fall under state Lottery and Gaming law. As for presenting evidence, I'm not the one prosecuting a gambling complaint against Bioware in the forums. The burden of proof lies with the petitioner. Edited October 25, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I read the law you referenced. It was specific to trading cards where there was real monetary gain to be realized by aquisition. ie: the cards have real monetary value in the collectors market. You are trying to conflate that to virtual trading items where no real monetary gain is realized. Trading items for virtual items that can only result in personal satisfaction or fun do not fall under the law you are "seemingly" trying to pontificate upon. Indeed, which means that the virtual stuff may still be unlicensed. Virtual items have as much monetary value as real items these days (not that anything in said legislation say it has to have that, just that you have to pay, whichis a different thing entirely ), just ask any record executive, I don't think your "defense" would go down too well there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larity Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Lots of debate here... but the bottom line is that we were lied to. The bottom line is that the Cartel Market is not what we expected because it is not what we were told it would be. It's a total scam. Fun fact. They told us a cash shop was common. Thats it, previewed some items. Real Fact This is what a cash shop is, don't believe me? Look at maplestory, LOTRO, vindictus, STO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Indeed, which means that the virtual stuff may still be unlicensed. Virtual items have as much monetary value as real items these days (not that anything in said legislation say it has to have that, just that you have to pay, whichis a different thing entirely ), just ask any record executive, I don't think your "defense" would go down too well there. I see... so now you want to argue from the defense of IP perspective (which is what the record executive is concerned about)? OK.. fine...let's go there now... ALL CONTENT inside the game is owned and protected by IP rights of the game producer. You as a player do not legally own any of it. All monetary value of said IP resides with the legal holder of the IP, ie: Bioware. You would not want to claim that you pirated it and now own it because you bought if off the coin shop would you????? Edited October 25, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Whether or not "Grab Bags" are gambling or not, there is one thing you can do instead of QQ about this: Don't support it if you don't like it. If enough people feel the same, there will be a direct effect on the cash flow that these items were supposed to bring in to EAware. Vote with your wallet. Also, to the argument about "kids" getting addicted to Lock Boxes. The problem lies with the parent. If the parent gives the kid acces to their credit card and doesn't supervise their child then they reap the rewards of their poor parenting. Personally I wouldn't let a child play an MMORPG for many reasons. This is just one of many reasons not to allow children to play MMORPGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Whether or not "Grab Bags" are gambling or not, there is one thing you can do instead of QQ about this: Don't support it if you don't like it. If enough people feel the same, there will be a direct effect on the cash flow that these items were supposed to bring in to EAware. Vote with your wallet. Also, to the argument about "kids" getting addicted to Lock Boxes. The problem lies with the parent. If the parent gives the kid acces to their credit card and doesn't supervise their child then they reap the rewards of their poor parenting. Personally I wouldn't let a child play an MMORPG for many reasons. This is just one of many reasons not to allow children to play MMORPGs. I /endorse this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yes it is gambling, and it's often licenced as such, as a "lottery". Now morally whether it should be legal to aim those things at kids is a different kettle of fish, but yes it is legally classes as gambling and licensed as such. It is because what? Someone dug up something that says 1 state, in the entire world says so? California is pretty ridiculous in the laws that they make. Just about every product has a label on it that says "This is known the to state of California to cause Cancer" or something similar. I really cant believe you are getting all riled up over this. Go sue the world and tell them to take the baseball cards and football cards and magic the gathering, pokemon or any other cards out of business. Have them remove any vending machine that has toys or stickers or random colored gum balls out of here because thats gambling. You know, I hate yellow gum balls. When I get gum balls I prefer to get orange but usually get yellow more then orange. I hate gambling. This is all ridiculous and you are just butt hurt that you cant spend direct real life cash on something you want. I got a hint for you.... spend fake credits on the GTN instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 And I never questioned their drops. It IS debatable how many you need to buy for a specific drop. As I stated earlier, as an example, if I would want a specific item, it IS gambling, because I buy as many boxes to get it drop. Say I want one invisible chest for one of my nonexistent male avatars = I buy one box and it won`t drop. 0% chance. I buy another. No drop = 0%. I buy a 3rd one and it drops = 33% chance. Amount about 10 euro. It might be also blind luck, because my rolls have been about 33% lucky, not the actual drop rate, which might be lower. Yeah, Im gambling when i go in an Operation looking for a specific leg armor to drop too. They should just shut down the game. The entire game is one big gamble. Hell... In essence we gambled when we bought the game and gambled when we pay a subscription. I for one expected to play this game for the rest of my life, so Im gambling every month that I will be able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yeah, Im gambling when i go in an Operation looking for a specific leg armor to drop too. NO you don`t. A leg piece WILL drop 100% from the same Boss each time. You only gamble which class can use it, if it is under Campaign. Either way, you are gambling virtual goods for virtual goods. You would gamble if you`d pay 3 euro for each said leg armor drop, to drop at all. It might drop chest / boots / gloves /pet /boost / crystal BUT leg armor. Let alone the issue of said leg armor be of no use to you, at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 NO you don`t. A leg piece WILL drop 100% from the same Boss each time. You only gamble which class can use it, if it is under Campaign. Either way, you are gambling virtual goods for virtual goods. You would gamble if you`d pay 3 euro for each said leg armor drop, to drop at all. It might drop chest / boots / gloves /pet /boost / crystal BUT leg armor. Let alone the issue of said leg armor be of no use to you, at all So you are saying that its not gambling because you are not paying for it with real money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larity Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 NO you don`t. A leg piece WILL drop 100% from the same Boss each time. You only gamble which class can use it, if it is under Campaign. Either way, you are gambling virtual goods for virtual goods. You would gamble if you`d pay 3 euro for each said leg armor drop, to drop at all. It might drop chest / boots / gloves /pet /boost / crystal BUT leg armor. Let alone the issue of said leg armor be of no use to you, at all Technically he is right, he is gambling for it. Sure it may be a 100% drop, but theres a chance it might not be his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateops Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Oh that is so funny! If your truly concerned over gambling, get out of here and call a lawyer! Go after Bioware you champion of virtue! Now if you follow this need for attention logic, you could claim everything random is gambling! From drops in a game to planning a picnik in rl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Technically he is right, he is gambling for it. Sure it may be a 100% drop, but theres a chance it might not be his. Yup, he is gambling if he can use it or not, but it WILL drop.. each time, in the same spot. But the item itself is always there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larity Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yup, he is gambling if he can use it or not, but it WILL drop.. each time, in the same spot. But the item itself is always there. But you know the loot boxes tell you that it will guarentee a rare item (or two) with a chance for a super rare, with a guarentee of 100% companion gift, AND xp boost, AND crafting mat. so, those items WILL COME IN IT 100% OF THE TIME. So they are ALWAYS IN THERE. Its like a pack of pokemon cards, always hoping for a shiny or rare pokemon. So yes it IS gambling, but its LEGAL gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I`m saying it is not gambling if you have the chance of getting it at 100%. It would be gambling if said Boss would drop the full range of gear. The price tag is just to ensure the person doing it has a big "Dunce" written on its forehead. You have 100% chance of getting something if you kill the boss. You dont have 100% chance of getting something you want or could even use. Same thing with the grab bag. You have a 100% chance of getting something, it just might not be something you want. That range of gear is the fact that it might not be usuable by your class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yup, he is gambling if he can use it or not, but it WILL drop.. each time, in the same spot. But the item itself is always there. Karragas Helmit. /end arguement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 But you know the loot boxes tell you that it will guarentee a rare item (or two) with a chance for a super rare, with a guarentee of 100% companion gift, AND xp boost, AND crafting mat. so, those items WILL COME IN IT 100% OF THE TIME. So they are ALWAYS IN THERE. Its like a pack of pokemon cards, always hoping for a shiny or rare pokemon. So yes it IS gambling, but its LEGAL gambling. I was trying to prove it IS gambling. Even IF it would be proven illegal, they would just withdraw from the countries that have such legislation. But it will be held up in such delays that the game will be long dead by the time a verdict is reached. Which is an entire new story that I have no interest in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Karragas Helmit. /end arguement. Nobody in their right mind would pay real money to roll against what looks to be about a 10% drop chance. At least I HOPE such people don`t exist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Nobody in their right mind would pay real money to roll against what looks to be about a 10% drop chance. At least I HOPE such people don`t exist... That doesnt change the arguement. You are already doing so just by paying a subscription and raiding in hopes to get one. Hence, if you want to say a grab bag is gambling, then you would have to say raiding is gambling. You would have to say doing dungeons is gambling too. You could also say that the original way to aquire PVP gear was gambling. All of the above is just dumb thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larity Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I cheer on for Bioware and EA to create more Grab Bag things! Yay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) That doesnt change the arguement. You are already doing so just by paying a subscription and raiding in hopes to get one. Hence, if you want to say a grab bag is gambling, then you would have to say raiding is gambling. You would have to say doing dungeons is gambling too. You could also say that the original way to aquire PVP gear was gambling. All of the above is just dumb thinking. You don`t risk anything, except virtual goods vs virtual goods. A virtual repair bill, which you pay with virtual money, which you get by moving your virtual avatar. You gamble virtually, with no "real" consequences. Ultimately, the ONLY REAL investment is time, in this gamble, excluding the sub, which is paid once, at a fixed rate, for access to a service. With real money, you DO risk losing the money if you don`t draw what you wanted. All you get are items that you can sell 5 days later for virtual money. Suddenly, your gambling has a REAL price, which might add really fast for some. Still the same gamble, only with REAL consequences. As opposed to a fixed rate/price for each "drop". Just like that Japanese game I can`t remember with its boxes and keys scheme. Edited October 25, 2012 by Styxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 You don`t risk anything, except virtual goods vs virtual goods. A virtual repair bill, which you pay with virtual money, which you get by moving your virtual avatar. You gamble virtually, with no "real" consequences. Ultimately, the ONLY REAL investment is time, in this gamble, excluding the sub, which is paid once, at a fixed rate, for access to a service. With real money, you DO risk losing the money if you don`t draw what you wanted. All you get are items that you can sell 5 days later for virtual money. Suddenly, your gambling has a REAL price, which might add really fast for some. Still the same gamble, only with REAL consequences. As opposed to a fixed rate/price for each "drop". Just like that Japanese game I can`t remember with its boxes and keys scheme. You pay a subscription fee. If in paying that subscription fee, your desire is to get all the best gear.. it becomes a gamble by your own logic. Secondly, F2P players would have to pay money specifically to raid... thereby making it gambling by your own logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 You pay a subscription fee. If in paying that subscription fee, your desire is to get all the best gear.. it becomes a gamble by your own logic. Secondly, F2P players would have to pay money specifically to raid... thereby making it gambling by your own logic. Only the roll, or the chance at the said item to "drop" from any Boss, not the raid itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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