An in-depth look at: Lightsaber Forms- Niman

[Maaruin]

That's probably what he planned on doing, but it wouldn't have worked out. Even if Jango wasn't there, Dooku was very committed to the Dark Side and to seeing Sidious' plan fulfilled. He wouldn't be open to negotiation. At least someone tried though.

 

Yes, it wouldn't have worked out. Still, you see in the duel against Obi-Wan that Dooku isn't interested in killing his opponents quickly. He does like to show of his lightsaber skills to his oppenent. Coleman would have died, but not within 5 seconds.

[Aurbere]

Yes, it wouldn't have worked out. Still, you see in the duel against Obi-Wan that Dooku isn't interested in killing his opponents quickly. He does like to show of his lightsaber skills to his oppenent. Coleman would have died, but not within 5 seconds.

 

Yeah, Dooku's a classy duelist. He's not the guy that's just going to destroy you instantly just because he can. He's going to draw it out, usually just for the sake of the duel.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Yeah, Dooku's a classy duelist. He's not the guy that's just going to destroy you instantly just because he can. He's going to draw it out, usually just for the sake of the duel.

 

Oh btw off topic, though I think I asked before...but you also gonna do characters too? Was thinking of doing some, if you weren't.

[Aurbere]

Oh btw off topic, though I think I asked before...but you also gonna do characters too? Was thinking of doing some, if you weren't.

 

Yeah I was thinking of doing characters, but maybe we could do some sort of collaboration. I doubt I could cover ALL of the characters by myself lol.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Yeah I was thinking of doing characters, but maybe we could do some sort of collaboration. I doubt I could cover ALL of the characters by myself lol.

 

Well don't really need to cover all the chars, but just cover some and try to expand on ones that have little information...or the awesome ones that most don't know about besides the big ones. But ya we could work something out if ya want.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Well don't really need to cover all the chars, but just cover some and try to expand on ones that have little information...or the awesome ones that most don't know about besides the big ones. But ya we could work something out if ya want.

 

Sounds good to me. Like you could create threads discussing certain characters and then I'll use this thread series to do the same. It's a good idea because there are some characters that people don't really know about that they really should know.

 

Note: That's one of the reasons I started doing this. You know?

Edited October 21, 2012 by Aurbere

[Wolfninjajedi]

Sounds good to me. Like you could create threads discussing certain characters and then I'll use this thread series to do the same. It's a good idea because there are some characters that people don't really know about that they really should know.

 

Note: That's one of the reasons I started doing this. You know?

 

Yep, yep, though should probably PM a list of which ones your doing so I don't make the same ones.

[Aurbere]

Yep, yep, though should probably PM a list of which ones your doing so I don't make the same ones.

 

Lol yeah. I'll be sure to do that at my earliest convenience.

[RDeanOU]

I have always thought Niman was trash. It reminds me of when I was a kid and there was always a "balanced" character in video games that was terrible because he had no niche to exploit.

 

Think of it like an MMO. Niman is a character that can't tank as well as a pure tank, can't heal as well as a pure healer, and can't dps as well as a pure dps. It can't do anything very well because it wants do do a little of everything.

 

I think that the loss of so many Niman practitioners at Geonosis highlights this. When you try to be strong in everything you are strong in nothing. The claim that Niman has no weaknesses is false. Its lack of strengths is a massive weakness.

[Maaruin]

I have always thought Niman was trash. It reminds me of when I was a kid and there was always a "balanced" character in video games that was terrible because he had no niche to exploit.

 

Think of it like an MMO. Niman is a character that can't tank as well as a pure tank, can't heal as well as a pure healer, and can't dps as well as a pure dps. It can't do anything very well because it wants do do a little of everything.

 

I think that the loss of so many Niman practitioners at Geonosis highlights this. When you try to be strong in everything you are strong in nothing. The claim that Niman has no weaknesses is false. Its lack of strengths is a massive weakness.

 

 

Well, but Niman isn't trash.

 

There are at least two scenarios (maybe three) when I would recommand Niman:

 

1. When you are not a fighter, but a scholar, diplomat or whatever. Niman is easily learned and it is enough to practice 2-3 times a week (each other form has to be practiced daily). You learn Niman for self-defense, not for war. In a fight you won't beat your opponent, but you will be able to survive long enough to escape.

 

2. When you are willing to invest a lot of time and energy to master Niman. Ten years, practice daily (iirc the other forms take 2-3 years to master). Then you are a master of everything and you can counter every other form in most cases.

 

3. If you use the Force as your primary weapon and the lightsaber as support. Niman is the most Force-friendly form. (I'm not 100% sure about that one, though.)

 

All in all, Niman is underrated. If the form was trash and completely useless, it wouldn't be in use at all.

And IMO the fact that most Niman users died on Geonosis isn't because they were Niman users, it is because they used Niman as described under 1. They didn't train for battle at all.

 

Niman is probably the most underrated form. I'll again link to Jensaarai's videos:

[RDeanOU]

Well, but Niman isn't trash.

 

There are at least two scenarios (maybe three) when I would recommand Niman:

 

1. When you are not a fighter, but a scholar, diplomat or whatever. Niman is easily learned and it is enough to practice 2-3 times a week (each other form has to be practiced daily). You learn Niman for self-defense, not for war. In a fight you won't beat your opponent, but you will be able to survive long enough to escape.

 

2. When you are willing to invest a lot of time and energy to master Niman. Ten years, practice daily (iirc the other forms take 2-3 years to master). Then you are a master of everything and you can counter every other form in most cases.

 

3. If you use the Force as your primary weapon and the lightsaber as support. Niman is the most Force-friendly form. (I'm not 100% sure about that one, though.)

 

All in all, Niman is underrated. If the form was trash and completely useless, it wouldn't be in use at all.

And IMO the fact that most Niman users died on Geonosis isn't because they were Niman users, it is because they used Niman as described under 1. They didn't train for battle at all.

 

Niman is probably the most underrated form. I'll again link to Jensaarai's videos:

 

Your argument basically amounts to saying that Niman is good when you don't have the inclination to learn a form that is better. Yes, it's a great lightsaber form for someone who isn't concerned about how well they can fight with a lightsaber.

 

Your claim that, "When you are willing to invest a lot of time and energy to master Niman. Ten years, practice daily (iirc the other forms take 2-3 years to master). Then you are a master of everything and you can counter every other form in most cases," just isn't supported by what we see in the movies. Name a Niman master that could use it to counter every other form. That's the sound of crickets chirping that you hear. In general the notable duelists all mastered a form that had actual strengths they could use to their advantage.

 

Sorry, but I think it's a trash form for Jedi that didn't want to actually fight. That's why so many Niman practitioners died at Geonosis.

[ToEasy]

Well, but Niman isn't trash.

 

There are at least two scenarios (maybe three) when I would recommand Niman:

 

1. When you are not a fighter, but a scholar, diplomat or whatever. Niman is easily learned and it is enough to practice 2-3 times a week (each other form has to be practiced daily). You learn Niman for self-defense, not for war. In a fight you won't beat your opponent, but you will be able to survive long enough to escape.

 

2. When you are willing to invest a lot of time and energy to master Niman. Ten years, practice daily (iirc the other forms take 2-3 years to master). Then you are a master of everything and you can counter every other form in most cases.

 

3. If you use the Force as your primary weapon and the lightsaber as support. Niman is the most Force-friendly form. (I'm not 100% sure about that one, though.)

 

All in all, Niman is underrated. If the form was trash and completely useless, it wouldn't be in use at all.

And IMO the fact that most Niman users died on Geonosis isn't because they were Niman users, it is because they used Niman as described under 1. They didn't train for battle at all.

 

Niman is probably the most underrated form. I'll again link to Jensaarai's videos:

 

This is true. Also you are right about Niman being force friendly. It has some moves that involve force abilities.

[Slowpokeking]

I think Kun and Krayt use Niman simply because Jar'kai is good for dual wielding.

[Aurbere]

I think Kun and Krayt use Niman simply because Jar'kai is good for dual wielding.

 

Yes, both Kun and Krayt used Niman. Exar Kun was one of the most proficient user of Niman and Jar'Kai of all time. I'm not sure on Krayt though.

 

(Does anyone else think Krayt looks kinda like Shao Kahn from Mortal Kombat?)

[Maaruin]

Your argument basically amounts to saying that Niman is good when you don't have the inclination to learn a form that is better. Yes, it's a great lightsaber form for someone who isn't concerned about how well they can fight with a lightsaber.

 

An analogy. Would you call the mathmatics engineers use trash-math? I wouldn't, because it is enough for what they need to do in most cases. (Of course, if you assign an engineer the final thesis for mathmatics, he will fail.)

 

Your claim that, "When you are willing to invest a lot of time and energy to master Niman. Ten years, practice daily (iirc the other forms take 2-3 years to master). Then you are a master of everything and you can counter every other form in most cases," just isn't supported by what we see in the movies. Name a Niman master that could use it to counter every other form. That's the sound of crickets chirping that you hear. In general the notable duelists all mastered a form that had actual strengths they could use to their advantage.

 

Exar Kun.

 

He wasn't in the movies, of course. Actually, there was no Niman master among the main and intermediate characters. All we know about Niman is from EU.

 

Sorry, but I think it's a trash form for Jedi that didn't want to actually fight. That's why so many Niman practitioners died at Geonosis.

 

Niman is indeed the best form for Jedi who don't want to fight. But it is also a form good for Jedi who fight primarily with the Force. And a form for those few who would invest much more time into training to become real masters.

 

When you take all the Niman practicioners, you will probably get around 70% trash Niman, 15% Niman as secondary weapon besides the Force and 5% good Niman*.

 

*good Niman - Joclad Danva died while the clones got the Jedi out of the Arena. This means he survived the entire arena battle, which the majority of the Jedi didn't manage. So he was better than many practitioners of other forms.

[RDeanOU]

An analogy. Would you call the mathmatics engineers use trash-math? I wouldn't, because it is enough for what they need to do in most cases. (Of course, if you assign an engineer the final thesis for mathmatics, he will fail.)

 

 

 

Exar Kun.

 

He wasn't in the movies, of course. Actually, there was no Niman master among the main and intermediate characters. All we know about Niman is from EU.

 

 

 

Niman is indeed the best form for Jedi who don't want to fight. But it is also a form good for Jedi who fight primarily with the Force. And a form for those few who would invest much more time into training to become real masters.

 

When you take all the Niman practicioners, you will probably get around 70% trash Niman, 15% Niman as secondary weapon besides the Force and 5% good Niman*.

 

*good Niman - Joclad Danva died while the clones got the Jedi out of the Arena. This means he survived the entire arena battle, which the majority of the Jedi didn't manage. So he was better than many practitioners of other forms.

 

It's a lightsaber form for people that aren't concerned about using their lightsaber skillfully.

 

If that is who you are then yes, it is the best form for you.

 

I consider it the weakest of all the forms for precisely this reason. Having no strengths is an incredibly huge weakness. Go back to my MMO analogy. What would you call a class that tries to tank, heal, and dps, but cannot do any of those things nearly as well as someone who specializes in one of those roles? I think the best word for that class is "useless." Niman fails to do anything well because it seeks to do everything well.

[Preventer-Blaze]

It's a lightsaber form for people that aren't concerned about using their lightsaber skillfully.

 

If that is who you are then yes, it is the best form for you.

 

I consider it the weakest of all the forms for precisely this reason. Having no strengths is an incredibly huge weakness. Go back to my MMO analogy. What would you call a class that tries to tank, heal, and dps, but cannot do any of those things nearly as well as someone who specializes in one of those roles? I think the best word for that class is "useless." Niman fails to do anything well because it seeks to do everything well.

 

I don't know about it. For me, this goes for the Master of this Form (like all other forms). That said, think about it, if you can really achieve your true potential with the form, can you tell that this form is useless?

This has been told, Niman balances well with Force powers, better than the others imo.

If the master really know the form, know how to give yourself to the force to take the best of the form, why would he be useless?

 

In MMO? Well.. if you lose a tank and this "wanna be all" help you out, not so good, but make your group succeed, what would you think?

 

And Niman was never intended to do anything well, Niman was intended to be a form with a good mix between some forms, be to thats who seek the balance with the peace, the calm mind.. and the force, my friend.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean this is the best form, I'm only pointing that this form isn't useless.

Nothing is really useless in my eyes, if we can do something about that, nothing is really useless in my eyes..

[Aurbere]

It's a lightsaber form for people that aren't concerned about using their lightsaber skillfully.

 

If that is who you are then yes, it is the best form for you.

 

I consider it the weakest of all the forms for precisely this reason. Having no strengths is an incredibly huge weakness. Go back to my MMO analogy. What would you call a class that tries to tank, heal, and dps, but cannot do any of those things nearly as well as someone who specializes in one of those roles? I think the best word for that class is "useless." Niman fails to do anything well because it seeks to do everything well.

 

Niman is a balanced for that combines the capabilities of the previous five forms with moderation. Moderate attack, moderate defense, moderate speed and so on. The Form is strong in nothing, but weak in nothing. I can see what you mean by no strengths being a weakness. But the form wasn't meant for war or any sort of 'heavy lifting' that the other forms are for. It was meant for peace-keeping missions. Which is one of the reasons that so many Niman users fell at Geonosis, but the true masters of Niman were not killed in the battle. Joclad Danva was killed during the retreat from the arena. So he survived the arena. But this could be due to his Jar'Kai mastery, as well.

[Joronas]

Generalists are a great thing. You send them when you don't know what to expect.

 

Seriously. If you're expecting major fighting, send a combat-specialist. If you're expecting negotiation, send a diplomat.

 

If you can't expect anything, well, you send someone who can do everything, because then you don't have someone who is weak to the situation dealing with it. The generalist might not excel the way the expert does, but he will do better then the those who are not good at the situation. At worst, they buy time for the experts to arrive.

 

Likewise, in your MMO analogy.. taking the generalist means that when things go sideways, you have someone who can respond to it. Flexibility is wonderful.

[Maaruin]

It's a lightsaber form for people that aren't concerned about using their lightsaber skillfully.

 

If that is who you are then yes, it is the best form for you.

 

I consider it the weakest of all the forms for precisely this reason. Having no strengths is an incredibly huge weakness. Go back to my MMO analogy. What would you call a class that tries to tank, heal, and dps, but cannot do any of those things nearly as well as someone who specializes in one of those roles? I think the best word for that class is "useless." Niman fails to do anything well because it seeks to do everything well.

 

MMO forces everyone into the trinity. I'd like to use another analogy.

 

In soccer football there are some positions/play styles who are balanced. I'm not an expert, so I'll just quote Wikipedia:

 

Midfield playstyles:

 

[...]

 

Box to box

Box to box midfielders help with almost every aspect of the game. They need immense stamina as they need to cover most areas of the pitch, as well as some degree of passing skills. They normally play as central midfielders but some play as defensive or attacking, and others can also play on the flanks as wing-backs or wide midfielders.

 

[...]

 

Playmaker

Playmakers are midfielders with good on-the-ball control and good passing ability but also good off-the-ball ability to be able to read the game and to seek goal-scoring opportunities. Playmakers usually play as attacking midfielders, but some play as defensive or central midfielders (deep-lying playmakers). Some also play on the flank usually on their weaker side as that gives them the opportunity to cut infield.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football_positions#Midfield

 

Now, people like me who played football only at school and learned some basic defense and attack moves are also "balanced", but we would simply suck at every position. But "balanced" professional players are quite useful in addition to "specialists".

Edited October 22, 2012 by Maaruin

[RDeanOU]

All this talk, but when it came down to it Niman just wasn't adequate for fighting. Geonosis proved that. It was only adequate for an era when you didn't have to be skilled with your lightsaber.

 

I think that fact alone proves my point. Balanced approaches without strengths or weaknesses are inherently weak.

[MasterMe]

All this talk, but when it came down to it Niman just wasn't adequate for fighting. Geonosis proved that. It was only adequate for an era when you didn't have to be skilled with your lightsaber.

 

I think that fact alone proves my point. Balanced approaches without strengths or weaknesses are inherently weak.

 

You're right to an extent.

 

But you've got to realize that a true master of this form (there are very few) was a master of EVERYTHING. A true master had only strengths, no weaknessess. At least that's what I think.

[Joronas]

See... the thing is, you don't judge adequacy for combat for average users by throwing them into an extreme melee. That's a specialist/master test.

 

That's like saying if you can't swim across the English channel, your swimming technique is inadequate. If the situation is for a hyperintense combat, send the combat specialists. Niman has few combat specialists (the masters), it has generalists, so it was a bad fit for what they do. Not a valid way to judge the form.

 

That's like saying Ataru is a weak form because all the masters died while fighting in this tunnel scenario. You just don't send the ataru-using people into that type of fight, because it's not what they are trained for. You could send Niman-users into it, and unless it turned out to be an extremely intense fight that would push a specialist in that style of fighting to the limits, they'd do alright.

[Maaruin]

All this talk, but when it came down to it Niman just wasn't adequate for fighting. Geonosis proved that. It was only adequate for an era when you didn't have to be skilled with your lightsaber.

 

I think that fact alone proves my point. Balanced approaches without strengths or weaknesses are inherently weak.

 

Niman was in use for thousands of years, in times of peace and times of war.

 

"The style was adopted by the Legions of Lettow, a group of Dark-siders responsible for the First Great Schism of the Jedi Order. After the defeat of the Legion at the hands of the Jedi, Niman was adopted by the Jedi Order, eventually being refined into the sixth form of lightsaber combat, referred to by the same name. [...] During the various wars against the Sith, Niman was prized by some for its general versatility on the battlefield, though heavily criticized by others for being insufficiently demanding." (From Wookiepedia, Form VI: Niman)

 

Which fits to what I am trying to say the whole time: If you want to use Niman in war, you have to practice it for war. Which most of the PT-Niman-users simply did not do.

[Rayla_Felana]

Your argument basically amounts to saying that Niman is good when you don't have the inclination to learn a form that is better. Yes, it's a great lightsaber form for someone who isn't concerned about how well they can fight with a lightsaber.

 

Your claim that, "When you are willing to invest a lot of time and energy to master Niman. Ten years, practice daily (iirc the other forms take 2-3 years to master). Then you are a master of everything and you can counter every other form in most cases," just isn't supported by what we see in the movies. Name a Niman master that could use it to counter every other form. That's the sound of crickets chirping that you hear. In general the notable duelists all mastered a form that had actual strengths they could use to their advantage.

 

Sorry, but I think it's a trash form for Jedi that didn't want to actually fight. That's why so many Niman practitioners died at Geonosis.

 

That's the most backwards argument I've ever seen.

 

1.The Lightsaber Forms aren't mentioned at all in the films and only in novelisations.

2.Exar Kun mastered it so perfectly that the Jedi he did fight could see no weakness and were always on the backfoot due to the amount of unpredictability and power he applied.

3.Only a true master with years of dedication could use Niman to it's greatest potential, the other forms don't require such besides the obvious Juyo/Vaapad if you don't want to go all Anakin.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Rayla_Felana