TalonVII Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Anyone who loses to Hayden Christiansen in the movies....twice (included Jumper) does not even deserve consideration, much less stealing the ethnicity of a classic Marvel hero. he didn't steal crap. 1. Stan Lee orgionally intended for Nick Fury to be black. But back in the 60's it wouldn't of gone over real well to have a black man in control of the most super secret spy force in the world. So Stan made Nick white. 2. Once he could redo Nick Fury, Stan Lee INTENTIONALLY crafted Nick Fury off Samuel L Jackson, that's how he envisioned Nick fury. So...with that last remark, know your history and back round before going off half cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterMe Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Technically he didn't lose to Hayden he lost to Ian McDiarmid aka MR. UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAAAHHH!!! AKA *Cough Cough Most Powerful Sith Ever According to George Lucas Cough Cough* You do realize that Mace Windu is also voiced by TC Carson in most Appearances of the character even more than Jackson....AKA KRATOS: THE GOD OF WAR. He didn't lose to Ian McDiarmid. He was about to kill him when Hayden backstabbed him. If that punk weren't there, Mace would've won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AhsokaTanorules Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 he didn't steal crap. 1. Stan Lee orgionally intended for Nick Fury to be black. But back in the 60's it wouldn't of gone over real well to have a black man in control of the most super secret spy force in the world. So Stan made Nick white. 2. Once he could redo Nick Fury, Stan Lee INTENTIONALLY crafted Nick Fury off Samuel L Jackson, that's how he envisioned Nick fury. So...with that last remark, know your history and back round before going off half cocked. Let me ask you this then. Know of the SHIELD character GW Bridge? Instead of killing him off wouldn't it have made more sense for him to take over after white Fury was gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilikaa Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 He didn't lose to Ian McDiarmid. He was about to kill him when Hayden backstabbed him. If that punk weren't there, Mace would've won. I disagree. Palpatine most ikely would have beaten Windu IF Anakin was not going to arrive. Think about it. Palpatine was manipulating Anakin for years to turn him to the Darkside. He knew the Jedi would come for him. He was ready for the fight. Palpatine was playing Windu, buying time for Anakin to arrive. He needed Anakin there to see what was going on and to give him that final push. That is why he played the weakend old man just as Anakin was rushing to his office. Seriously think about it. Palpatine was doing fine against Windu, then suddenly he is on the ground begging for his life seconds before Anakin shows up. He then plays on Annie's emotions by talking about saving Padme as Windu tries to convince him that Palpatine has to die. It was a setup to push Anakin to the Darkside entirely. Windu was doomed from the start. Palpatine suckered him in. Basically, Windu got got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revansowns Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Mace Windu all day every day. He beat the most powerful Sith Lord in Galactic History, nough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilikaa Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Mace Windu all day every day. He beat the most powerful Sith Lord in Galactic History, nough said. Did he really? Read my previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Mace Windu all day every day. He beat the most powerful Sith Lord in Galactic History, nough said. In saber combat yes, in the fight as a whole no. His lighting was BENDING Mace's saber, and he was losing his grip on it. If he had lost his grip, bye bye lightsaber and he gets fried just like he was only without his hand being cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterMe Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 In saber combat yes, in the fight as a whole no. His lighting was BENDING Mace's saber, and he was losing his grip on it. If he had lost his grip, bye bye lightsaber and he gets fried just like he was only without his hand being cut off. But he didn't lose his grip. So in fighting as a whole, Mace won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterMe Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I disagree. Palpatine most ikely would have beaten Windu IF Anakin was not going to arrive. Think about it. Palpatine was manipulating Anakin for years to turn him to the Darkside. He knew the Jedi would come for him. He was ready for the fight. Palpatine was playing Windu, buying time for Anakin to arrive. He needed Anakin there to see what was going on and to give him that final push. That is why he played the weakend old man just as Anakin was rushing to his office. Seriously think about it. Palpatine was doing fine against Windu, then suddenly he is on the ground begging for his life seconds before Anakin shows up. He then plays on Annie's emotions by talking about saving Padme as Windu tries to convince him that Palpatine has to die. It was a setup to push Anakin to the Darkside entirely. Windu was doomed from the start. Palpatine suckered him in. Basically, Windu got got. That's a very good theory. But a theory isn't fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) I disagree. Palpatine most ikely would have beaten Windu IF Anakin was not going to arrive. Think about it. Palpatine was manipulating Anakin for years to turn him to the Darkside. He knew the Jedi would come for him. He was ready for the fight. Palpatine was playing Windu, buying time for Anakin to arrive. He needed Anakin there to see what was going on and to give him that final push. That is why he played the weakend old man just as Anakin was rushing to his office. Seriously think about it. Palpatine was doing fine against Windu, then suddenly he is on the ground begging for his life seconds before Anakin shows up. He then plays on Annie's emotions by talking about saving Padme as Windu tries to convince him that Palpatine has to die. It was a setup to push Anakin to the Darkside entirely. Windu was doomed from the start. Palpatine suckered him in. Basically, Windu got got. This is partially correct. Yes Windu got played, but GL has stated that Windu won the Lightsaber duel. Which means that Windu is a better duelist than Sidious. Now if Sidious did use his full power, Windu wouldn't have a chance. Simplified: Windu > Sidious - Lightsaber Sidious > Windu - Force Power It's only partly correct. If you want me to go in-depth over it, say so. Edited October 9, 2012 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismercu Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I disagree. Palpatine most ikely would have beaten Windu IF Anakin was not going to arrive. Think about it. Palpatine was manipulating Anakin for years to turn him to the Darkside. He knew the Jedi would come for him. He was ready for the fight. Palpatine was playing Windu, buying time for Anakin to arrive. He needed Anakin there to see what was going on and to give him that final push. That is why he played the weakend old man just as Anakin was rushing to his office. Seriously think about it. Palpatine was doing fine against Windu, then suddenly he is on the ground begging for his life seconds before Anakin shows up. He then plays on Annie's emotions by talking about saving Padme as Windu tries to convince him that Palpatine has to die. It was a setup to push Anakin to the Darkside entirely. Windu was doomed from the start. Palpatine suckered him in. Basically, Windu got got. This is man speaks the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilikaa Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) This is partially correct. Yes Windu got played, but GL has stated that Windu won the Lightsaber duel. Which means that Windu is a better duelist than Sidious. Now if Sidious did use his full power, Windu wouldn't have a chance. Simplified: Windu > Sidious - Lightsaber Sidious > Windu - Force Power It's only partly correct. If you want me to go in-depth over it, say so. That's just it. he lost the saber part of the fight. But since he needed Anakin present he did not use his full Force power. Anakin had to be given that final shove to the Darkside. Palpatine could not give that shove if he went all apes#$@ crazy with his powers. Look how insane he was fighting Yoda in the Senate chamber. The man was clearly gone mentally lol. I agree Windu won the saber fight, but he was sucked into a trap by Palpy, as was Anakin. If Annie wasn't on Coruscant at the time I think Palpy would have gone into full Force power mode, probably destroying his office with Windu. We can go into more depth on this, I would welcome that. It would make for a good discussion. But is it possible to have that on the forums? lol:D Edited October 9, 2012 by Kilikaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterMe Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 This is partially correct. Yes Windu got played, but GL has stated that Windu won the Lightsaber duel. Which means that Windu is a better duelist than Sidious. Now if Sidious did use his full power, Windu wouldn't have a chance. Simplified: Windu > Sidious - Lightsaber Sidious > Windu - Force Power It's only partly correct. If you want me to go in-depth over it, say so. I just realized something. 1. We know that Mace is a better duelist then Sidious. 2. We know that Qui-gon, Dooku, and Yoda where all equals in lightsaber combat with Mace at one time. If this is so, I guess Sidious isn't so special with a lightsaber (obviously he makes up with this in force beastliness). Perhaps I'm thinking through this incorrectly, but does this mean that Dooku is a better duelist then Sidious? That just seems crazy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I just realized something. 1. We know that Mace is a better duelist then Sidious. 2. We know that Qui-gon, Dooku, and Yoda where all equals in lightsaber combat with Mace at one time. If this is so, I guess Sidious isn't so special with a lightsaber (obviously he makes up with this in force beastliness). Perhaps I'm thinking through this incorrectly, but does this mean that Dooku is a better duelist then Sidious? That just seems crazy to me. Actually no. Mace Windu beat Sidious through the use of the Vaapad form (created by Windu himself). Vaapad acts as a sort of siphon of the Dark Side. If his opponents use the Dark Side, the form draws that Darkness into Mace Windu, which he uses to enhance his dueling and Force skills. Mace Windu was very close to falling to the Dark Side in his duel with Sidious. Sidious is a master of the seven Lightsaber forms and could wield them with either hand, giving him the element of surprise in a duel. Seeing a duelist switch hands mid-duel can throw off many duelists. He was a very capable duelist, but he really specializes in Force power. As great a duelist as Dooku and Qui-Gon are, they aren't on the same level as Sidious. And because they don't have Vaapad, they wouldn't be able to beat Sidious. Very few duelists can beat him. We have seen him beat Yoda and Luke in a duel. Granted Luke wasn't in his prime, but it is still an amazing feat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) That's just it. he lost the saber part of the fight. But since he needed Anakin present he did not use his full Force power. Anakin had to be given that final shove to the Darkside. Palpatine could not give that shove if he went all apes#$@ crazy with his powers. Look how insane he was fighting Yoda in the Senate chamber. The man was clearly gone mentally lol. I agree Windu won the saber fight, but he was sucked into a trap by Palpy, as was Anakin. If Annie wasn't on Coruscant at the time I think Palpy would have gone into full Force power mode, probably destroying his office with Windu. We can go into more depth on this, I would welcome that. It would make for a good discussion. But is it possible to have that on the forums? lol:D You are correct that Mace Windu was played. The duel was one by Windu, strictly from a Lightsaber perspective. Sidious believed that he could hold Mace off until Anakin arrived. Which he did, but not in the best way. By the time Anakin arrived, Sidious was about to be cut down. Perfect timing? Maybe. Perhaps Sidious felt Anakin's presence approaching and threw the duel. A good assumption, but ruled out by GL. Anyway. Had Sidious fought Windu like he did Yoda, then he would have won. Mace would have put up a better fight though. Thanks to Vaapad of course. I love a good debate, but we seem to have similar views of this so there is no point lol. Edited October 9, 2012 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 John Williams comes in the room, and blasts the two using his music defeating them both...because we all know without John Williams, there is no Star Wars. But really, dunno haven't really read up on Kyle enough to make a descision. Fun fact. John Williams holds the record for most award losses(last I heard). This is probably due to John Williams seeing the awards as petty and unworthy of his awesomeness and the people are afraid of invoking his wrath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 I just realized something. 1. We know that Mace is a better duelist then Sidious. 2. We know that Qui-gon, Dooku, and Yoda where all equals in lightsaber combat with Mace at one time. If this is so, I guess Sidious isn't so special with a lightsaber (obviously he makes up with this in force beastliness). Perhaps I'm thinking through this incorrectly, but does this mean that Dooku is a better duelist then Sidious? That just seems crazy to me. Their facing Mace when he Mace couldn't use Vapaad at its best. Vapaad is only really amazing against Dark-Side Users because it channels inner Darkness from the user and the opponent. And Sidious is the darkest of them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Mace Windu vs. Kyle Katarn... Samuel L. Jackson vs. The Guy That Chuck Norris Wishes He Could Be..... Hmmmm...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterMe Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Actually no. Mace Windu beat Sidious through the use of the Vaapad form (created by Windu himself). Vaapad acts as a sort of siphon of the Dark Side. If his opponents use the Dark Side, the form draws that Darkness into Mace Windu, which he uses to enhance his dueling and Force skills. Mace Windu was very close to falling to the Dark Side in his duel with Sidious. Sidious is a master of the seven Lightsaber forms and could wield them with either hand, giving him the element of surprise in a duel. Seeing a duelist switch hands mid-duel can throw off many duelists. He was a very capable duelist, but he really specializes in Force power. As great a duelist as Dooku and Qui-Gon are, they aren't on the same level as Sidious. And because they don't have Vaapad, they wouldn't be able to beat Sidious. Very few duelists can beat him. We have seen him beat Yoda and Luke in a duel. Granted Luke wasn't in his prime, but it is still an amazing feat. This makes since, I guess I hadn't realized that Mace wasn't at his best when fight Dooku and Qui-gon 'cause he wasn't able to use Vaapad. This would explain a lot. Vaapad is a very complicated form that I think is worthy of a thread, hint, hint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) This makes since, I guess I hadn't realized that Mace wasn't at his best when fight Dooku and Qui-gon 'cause he wasn't able to use Vaapad. This would explain a lot. Vaapad is a very complicated form that I think is worthy of a thread, hint, hint. It is a good idea for a thread. I probably will cover it soon. I plan on doing Lightsaber forms after the current, multi-part thread is done. That's going to cover Vaapad as well as the other forms. By the way, part two will come out tomorrow morning (US). Edited October 9, 2012 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 One word: Vaapad. Katarn has nothing for Vaapad. If someone needs more convincing, lets do a quick comparison. Windu defeated the most powerful sith lord in history (Sidious) in a lightsaber duel. Katarn was defeated by Darth Cadeous when Katarn had not only ambushed Cadeous but also had another master and several knights with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilikaa Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 One word: Vaapad. Katarn has nothing for Vaapad. If someone needs more convincing, lets do a quick comparison. Windu defeated the most powerful sith lord in history (Sidious) in a lightsaber duel. Katarn was defeated by Darth Cadeous when Katarn had not only ambushed Cadeous but also had another master and several knights with him. If you are referring to the fight on Coruscant, the goal was not to beat Jacen. The goal was to make it look like an assassination attempt and plant a tracking device on him. Kyle was not out to kill him. You can't use this as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 If you are referring to the fight on Coruscant, the goal was not to beat Jacen. The goal was to make it look like an assassination attempt and plant a tracking device on him. Kyle was not out to kill him. You can't use this as an example. Exactly this. Everyone knows that Katarn could wipe Caedus out any day of the week. Remember, there is NO Sith Order. Just a list of Sith that Kyle allows to live....for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Exactly this. Everyone knows that Katarn could wipe Caedus out any day of the week. Remember, there is NO Sith Order. Just a list of Sith that Kyle allows to live....for now. Sorry but no, Caedus is above Kyle Katarn, anyone who could face Grand Master Luke and not look like an idiot automatically trumps 99% of people, including Katarn, Caedus was quite literally Vader without a suit, he was growing so powerful that even though Luke knew he'd beat him, he also knew that if he left him to garner strength and continue down the Dark path, things might not be so lopsided eventually. Please don't underestimate Caedus and that goes for anybody, he knew things Katarn couldn't even grasp, it's that simple, the Jedi Order itself, including the High Council stated that the only Jedi they believed could face Caedus at all, was Luke. And yes before anybody brings it up, I know Caedus acknowledged Kyle's power, but the Jedi Order also recognised he was above all but their Grand Master. Edited October 13, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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