Healing Sage: 0% Alacrity?

[Krazy_Karl]

Nothing has changed for healer statwise since launch, barring the initial surge DR nerf.

 

Wrong. When Deliverance was a 1.5 second heal when used with the Conveyance proc, Alacrity was extremely useful as it reduced the GCD for all spells cast at 1.5 seconds or lower. In addition, I was referring more to the changes to the structure of encounters, the gearing (augments), etc. Once you step into TFB HM, you'll see that it is more execution of strategy than "if I can output X amount of HPS we win".

 

Dismissing other peoples opinions for explaining why it was better in terms of maths is outlandishly arrogant btw.

 

I dismissed the attitude that "math and HPS" is the end all be all of the discussion. And Aurojin stated an "opinion" veiled as fact. And thus, it was dismissed as such.

 

Regards,

KK

Edited October 3, 2012 by Krazy_Karl

[GeckoOBac]

I would not do crit as with 2200 willpower your almost hitting the soft cap on crit, so more power/surge would give me more sustained healing like the op plays.

 

Just wanted to point out something...

 

Crit from main stat does NOT use the same diminishing return as critical rating. The two are completely separated. The diminishing returns on the crit portion of the main stat mean that the soft cap is around 8k (that's 8 thousands) main stat, in your case willpower. Critical rating will start seeing serious diminishing returns at 300, 350 ish, independently from other buffs or critical gotten from willpower.

[Khevar]

Pot,

... People like Aurojin respond to threads like this because he seems to believe "his way is the best way PERIOD" and do not want to have a discussion. ...

I'd like you to meet Kettle:

... I dismissed the attitude that "math and HPS" is the end all be all of the discussion. And Aurojin stated an "opinion" veiled as fact. And thus, it was dismissed as such. ...

Edited October 3, 2012 by Khevar

[CaptainApop]

Wrong. When Deliverance was a 1.5 second heal when used with the Conveyance proc, Alacrity was extremely useful as it reduced the GCD for all spells cast at 1.5 seconds or lower. In addition, I was referring more to the changes to the structure of encounters, the gearing (augments), etc. Once you step into TFB HM, you'll see that it is more execution of strategy than "if I can output X amount of HPS we win".

 

The GCD reduction on fast cast spells ( >1.5s) does not make alacrity more valuable. All it does is prevent alacrity from becoming worthless on anything with a 1.5s cast time.

 

As to your addition, there is no compelling way to gear for TfB specifically. There just isn't. At the end of the day you satisfy a bunch of softcaps then stack as much bonus healing(power/mainstat) as you can because diminished stats don't keep up. "Skill" then determines how much you get out of the gear.

 

Skill is irrelevant for the gearing side because a stat does not become significantly more or less powerful because it's user is inept.

 

And before you fall off the high horse and break your neck. I've been in TfB hm since day one so don't pull the "once you get where I am" crap

Edited October 4, 2012 by CaptainApop

[Khevar]

All snarkiness aside, I firmly believe the point I made earlier:

 

Both a 0 alacrity healer and a mid-rage (~285) alacrity healer can succeed at any content in the game, up to and including HM TfB. There is not a single encounter that requires absolute perfect Best in Slot across the board.

 

This leaves then:

 

1. What's best for a personal playstyle.

and

2. What gear will give you the most possible healing.

 

Any discussion about #2 should involve math. Just sayin'

Edited October 3, 2012 by Khevar

[CaptainApop]

All snarkiness aside, I firmly believe the point I made earlier:

 

Both a 0 alacrity sage healer and a mid-rage (~285) alacrity healer can succeed at any content in the game, up to and including HM TfB. There is not a single encounter that requires absolute perfect Best in Slot across the board.

 

This leaves then:

 

1. What's best for a personal playstyle.

and

2. What gear will give you the most possible healing.

 

Any discussion about #2 should involve math. Just sayin'

 

Pretty much, nightmare might necessitate some of this but for the moment it's optimizing for the sake of crutching or just for the fun of it.

You can't just eye-ball optimal in a game where the formula for crit chance looks like this.

 

5% + 30% * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( PrimaryStat / max(Level,20) ) / 2.5 ) ) + 30% * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( CritRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.45 ) )

Edited October 3, 2012 by CaptainApop

[Aurojiin]

People like Aurojin respond to threads like this because he seems to believe "his way is the best way PERIOD" and do not want to have a discussion.

It's amusing, really. You posted this thread looking to discuss gearing choices. I pointed out that your gearing choice was sub-optimal in terms of healing output in a sustained casting scenario. This is a mathematical fact, whether you appreciate it or not. Since then you've done nothing but attack me, and try to deflect any contributions you don't appreciate by maintaining some sort of self-gratifying moral high ground.

 

The only person here who doesn't want to engage in a real discussion is you.

 

The best part is how you built your original post around the effects of Surge vs Alacrity on healing output, then once you were contradicted you suddenly pulled the "everything's easy to heal and I don't have to try anyway" card.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Aurojiin

[theborch]

Even if everything in end game is easy to heal and the range is just how easy it will be, there is still, no matter what, one combination of stats and skill tree that is the ideal combo. The real issue is no one here is going to sit down and run multiple simulations and crunch 50+ equations to figure out what that ideal is. There is a mathematically ideal setup but who is actually going to take the time to find it? I think comment that pointed out an 8% gain in alacrity is more beneficial then a 2.5% gain of surge is probably in the right pall park when it comes to optimizing those two specific stats.

[CaptainApop]

The real issue is no one here is going to sit down and run multiple simulations and crunch 50+ equations to figure out what that ideal is. There is a mathematically ideal setup but who is actually going to take the time to find it?

 

Actually, people were doing exactly that just a matter of months ago. Had they actually fiddled with more than just expertise with the 1.2 patch we'd probably be doing some more at this point.

Edited October 4, 2012 by CaptainApop

[Cleet_Xia]

It's really a bit of a wash. It's certainly possible to heal with, or without it. And I don't think it's important which is mathematically optimal according to XYZ sim or parser results. The difference isn't enough to allow or prohibit you from clearning content.

 

The effect of alacrity on regen is pretty negligible, if you heal with lots of Noble sac & Salvation that aspect is irrelevant. Self healing with Salvation to offset Noble Sac works fine with or without alacrity. But I do find resource management to be a little more difficult when alacrity goes over 11%, and I start having to intentionally idle.

 

Myself I try to avoid using Salvation, and prefer to single target heal instead. I'm with you on the idea that Benevolence doesn't belong in the toolbox of healing spec sages. It's really only an emergency cast for dps sages. But, on the subject of Deliverance I've got to disagree. Because you can't hardly single target heal without it. Sure single target healing is more spikey, but it doesn't pen the group to standing in a relatively small circle either. It's definately a matter of prefference.

 

I don't think there is any real advantage to single target healing Vs spamming the AoE, it's just not mind numbingly boring. For me, single target healing minimizes my usage of Noble Sac, so I can use those GCD's for other casts. It's a difference in style of play. And in the situations that require it, I'm not barred from switching to Salvation & Noble Sac by my gearing. With low alacrity, I'm essentially forced into casting Salvation & Noble Sac more frequently. I prefer to maintain my flexibility.

 

Without starting yet another debate of whether or not healers should dps, by speccing for the cheapest and most effective Salvation, we also specced for the most effective Force Quake. I also tend to pepper my healing with Disturbance and Tk Throw. All of which are influenced by alacrity. My opinion is that dpsing is just too risky with less than 3% alacrity. About 5% alacrity it becomes possible to sneak in a Disturbance, with little impact on healing. Part of the time required to cast Disturbance is created by the effect of alacrity on my large heals. Using Tk Throw requires me to have even more alacrity.

 

Now that I've said that, I'll go ahead and admit to being a heretic, get out the torches and pitchforks. I'm specced for Concentration. So I manage the proc from Disturbance, to maintain a 3 stack if possible. I find that it "decellerates" the decline of my force pool enough that I can dps for several minutes, before I have to begin idling for resource conservation, without using Noble Sac. I do it because I enjoy it. If I manage my concentration proc anywhere close to optimally, the boosted regen during my heals is enough to pay for the Disturbance. With the regen boost, TK throw becomes force positive. And TK throw provides almost enough force to make my next HT or Deliverance resource nuetral. I could idle during these dps casts & be sitting on a larger force pool, but if it never gets used ~ what is the point of even having it? Insurance policies are worse than worthless if you never, ever, collect.

 

In the end....

I think maybe the most relevant aspect of alacrity, isn't really how it shortens casting times, it's how alacrity shortens the time that you are "rooted" by your own casts. Those tenths of senconds can make a real difference. And it creates a little more wiggly room for making errors.

 

I like my alacrity between 8% -10%, just for the feel of it. I like it higher on my PvP gear. And I don't like having less than 5% at all.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Cleet_Xia

[theborch]

Actually, people were doing exactly that just a matter of months ago. Had they actually fiddled with more than just expertise with the 1.2 patch we'd probably be doing some more at this point.

 

I am just saying if people fiddled with it enough there would be an exact answer, but I don't see it anywhere or being shown here. What I see here is just a lot of... "I played with my gear and this set up feels right"

[CaptainApop]

I am just saying if people fiddled with it enough there would be an exact answer, but I don't see it anywhere or being shown here. What I see here is just a lot of... "I played with my gear and this set up feels right"

 

Most of the heavy theorycrafters aren't here anymore or have become bitter

 

And you're never going to convince all people of anything like this. For starters having declared the best course of action to be decided mathematically I'd say a large portion of the playerbase will immediately shut off and never go in that deep.

Back over in wow, where you literally had people creating full on sims to crunch rotations, you still had people vehemently insisting otherwise. It's just the way of things :L

Edited October 4, 2012 by CaptainApop

[enoax]

I am just saying if people fiddled with it enough there would be an exact answer, but I don't see it anywhere or being shown here. What I see here is just a lot of... "I played with my gear and this set up feels right"

It's all on mmo-mechanics. It's all been figured out there. Look there is you want an inteligent discussion on gearing. The official forums has too much chest pounding and epeen stroking to have any kind of real discussion ... This thread is a perfect example of that.

[Khevar]

I am just saying if people fiddled with it enough there would be an exact answer, but I don't see it anywhere or being shown here. What I see here is just a lot of... "I played with my gear and this set up feels right"

This post is a comprehensive coverage of Sage dps theorycrafting:

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-947.html

 

Here is one discussing the SimC parsing of BiS (as of 1.3) Sorcerer/Sage dps:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=499626

 

This healing thread is unfortunately, less comprehensive:

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-954.html

 

IMO, this is due to the nature of the beast. In a PvE situation a dps has a simple job. Deal as much damage as fast as possible in the alotted time (oh, and don't stand in the red circles!)

 

Healing on the other hand tends to be more reactive. If you heal past full health or bubble someone not taking damage, that is overhealing and is a waste of resources. If a someone makes a mistake and other raid members start taking excess damage, you have to juggle more things at once.

 

This is one of the reasons that the SimC devs haven't modeled a healing scenario in their app. That said, much of the logic that can be applied to calculating dps can also be applied to calculating hps.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Khevar

[Cleet_Xia]

The problem with trying to find "mathematically optimal" is the number of variables.

 

Spec, rotation, player skill, & any strange preference or avoidance of abilities

 

ALL have an impact on what is optimal. And those are just the variables that are under the control of the sage healer themselves. It's not just how much you're healing, it's also what you're healing and how.

 

When you start bringing in the external variables (such as the above set for the players being healed) ~ the complexity of a truely accurate sim grows exponentially with the sophistication of the engine behind the game itself.

 

You can find optimal for a grossly limited set of variables, but then you throw in the wild card of people making a single random mistake, and "optimal" just went right out the window. I don't know about you, but my mistake CD is about 20 seconds. Few of those mistakes are party wipes, but I'm nowhere near playing "optimally", and I'm never going to achieve that.

 

The results from a napkin math rotation or even an awesome sim, don't mean squat as soon as you bring the variables from other players and different boss mechincs into the picture. It's actually what makes the game interesting, and player skill relevent. How can you accurately simulate a task that requires you to respond to randomness?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

The emergent properties of the game are such that at the almost every stat past the DR softcap is of subjective value. That is a pretty good design....

[Aurojiin]

The problem with trying to find "mathematically optimal" is the number of variables.

 

Spec, rotation, player skill, & any strange preference or avoidance of abilities

The concepts of mathematical optimality and subjective preference for abilities have no business consorting with each other.

 

For example, you may choose to spec into Concentration and not use Salvation. That's perfectly fine, but it doesn't change the fact that your choices greatly restrict your healing output in an operations context. There is an immense amount of value in theoretical modelling despite the complexity of "real-life" situations, because it gives you insight in the most effective courses of action.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Aurojiin

[Cleet_Xia]

The concepts of mathematical optimality and subjective preference for abilities have no business consorting with each other.

That is precisely my point. But I'm sure everyone who's read this has some preferences in which abilities they use, and when. I'm sure they all believe those choices are based entirely on reason and logic. And I'm also sure that even you have your preferences. Careful how much logic you try to bring into a subjective conversation.

 

For example, you may choose to spec into Concentration and not use Salvation. That's perfectly fine, but it doesn't change the fact that your choices greatly restrict your healing output in an operations context. There is an immense amount of value in theoretical modelling despite the complexity of "real-life" situations, because it gives you insight in the most effective courses of action.

I understand what your getting at, but my spec is an outlayer on the bell curve. I'm sure it's nowhere close to optimal, in a relative sense. I'm also playing with extremely high latency, a 3 button mouse, small monitor, & a dirty keyboard. I sometimes like to eat while I play as well. I have yet to play while drunk, but it seems to be a popular thing to do. I have never felt that my play was optimal. But I'm also not playing this game in some futile attempt to mimic the best dang seer AI ever invented either. I'm playing it to have fun. And if i have more fun playing it in a sub-optimal way, doing so is far more logical than paying my sub and not enjoying it. I could be healing 5% more just by changing everything I'm doing now, that's nice ~ still don't care, don't subjectively feel that I need the 5% boost.

 

What I'm talking about in differences of spec is the fact that there are 37 slots in the healing tree, 10 each in both the Tele and Balance trees you can put your 41 points in. And only 1 of them has to have a point in it to have Salvation. You don't have to spec for Rejuvenate. You don't have to spec for HT. Not sure why you'd do that to yourself ~ but it is possible to skip both of them and still have an AoE heal.. If I didn't use HT at all ~ I might drop it from my build ~ because that could actually work pretty good. You can design an optimal spec, and you can run a sim of optimal rotations with that spec. But as soon as you move 1 point, the results will be different, within the realm of hair splitting. You've got 57 places to put 41 points. That's 16 empty holes, and 6 of them can be in the healing tree, a lot of room for a lot of variation. It's finite ~ but players do have options.

 

As far as preferences for abilities, people go back and forth over Deliverance and HT. Eventhough, Deliverance on conveyance proc & HT can be so close enough in casting time, net cost, and the healing done that they can be pretty close to interchangeable. Some sages use Benevolence ~ some don't. Players use Force armor quite differently. Some players use rejuvenate for topping up DPS, while others only cast it on the tank. Whether or not any of these are the right decision to make can depend on who is standing where. You can't accurately simulate that, because it adds too many variables. The raw quantity of healing you can do is meaningless in a vaccume.

 

The sims require you to adhere to something of an ideal roation ~ can you actually do that in practice? Well guess what, that chucked optimal out the window, because your regen is now in a different place than it should be according to the model. Someone misses an interrupt, optimal blown. What about people playing well? ~ then you've got a lot less to heal, and optimal isn't hardly relevant anymore. Identifying an optimal roation and spec through a simulation only tells you what the maximum theoretical amount of healing is possible, it does very little to help you actually achieve it. You can say things like, "well I could use X ability less frequently" And that's about it. Helpful?....possibly Absolutley vital ZOMG I Gotta know NAO information.... not really.

 

So now that we've passed through the layers of spec and ability usage variables, there is still the the gear layer. Yes you can run the sims with an ideal BiS gearing, and that can actually be mathematically determined. If you make an assumption like "BiS means largest number of total stat points possible". Otherwise, at some point past the DR for secondary stats you get into value judgement territory. Because you're splitting hairs fine enough that you're not going to percieve the difference in practice. The sim might identify a difference, but chances are ~ the player won't. But if you're wearing BiS, how much are you still playing the toon? And if you're not running with BiS, what does the sim tell you? The answer is exactly what you already knew about the DR curves ~ and that you're not optimal. Gee, already had that information.

 

The sim accounts for a certain amount of mistakes, weird spec choices, gear, & general bad play? Well, where you set the bar is entirely subjective, and the sim is now completely pointless. Let's recap- the sim describes a theoretical maximum you will never obtain ~or~ it provides you with equally meaningless information, that looks a lot more like player parses.

 

I'm playing a game with all these options, but I'm supposed to pick exactly the same one's as everyone else?...... that's a lot of fun, and so incredibly interesting. I have an idea, balance things so that a stupid amount of variation is possible, and people get to try things out to their subjective preference....more better. Oh wait, they tried that, and the forum filled up with QQ that the content was too easy.

 

Lets face it... napkin math, sims, and threads like this... they're just fun, and that's good enough reason to have them. But the existence of those things doesn't make threads like this any less subjective. The Op is subjective. But it's a great thing to bring back up, for the people who havn't been around since launch.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Cleet_Xia

[SoonerJBD]

You are confusing and mixing two concepts that really don't belong together. You can play however you like. That's not the issue here. The OP used the term min/max. And you responded to the term "mathematically optimal." Those terms are not subjective. No one is suggesting you can't clear all the content if you put a point somewhere else in the skill tree or change out a couple of pieces of gear. But for people who are on raid progression currently working on Terror from Beyond on hard mode, cranking every last ounce of DPS or healing possible from their toon is a priority. To suggest there is no value in determining the best way to do that is ridiculous. Mathematically optimal can be measured. Is it some sort of untouchable golden rule requiring everyone to conform to that standard or else? No. But it's a good barometer and can definitely help people determine where they can improve if they want to get better. Running with no alacrity is not min/max and not mathematically optimal. You are still allowed to gear that way if you choose, and if you can still clear the content, that's just dandy. But don't call it min/max or mathematically optimal.

[Cleet_Xia]

I understood the OP's usage of min/max = purple 26 mods of their choosing & various engame gear that did not provide any alacrity. Because that's the information the OP provides.

 

And then people went all donkey kong about min/max without alacrity =/= mathematically optimal ~ eventhough the entire content of the OP is purely opinion. The OP identified it as such. So what if they don't feel alacrity helps them? They also said that Deliverance is useless. They were asking if anyone shared the opinion. NOT for everyone to explain to them why they feel the OP is an idiot. Nowhere did they claim that their approach was mathematically optimal. They did react to people's criticism in a way that was inflammatory.

 

I answered the op by saying , "NO, I like my alacrity. But I'm sure you can get by without it, and hey that's your choice" ~ albeit in a very wordy post..

 

I responded later to a few posts that were made concerning people's opinions about what constitutes ideal.

 

I do have to laugh at myself though, for going off into my "sims & parsers are just tools to sell banner ads" rant.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Cleet_Xia

[SoonerJBD]

My problem is with usage of the term min/max. Min/maxing means minimizing bad traits and maximizing good ones to create the best character possible. You can't do that without alacrity. If the OP wants to cut out alacrity for additional surge, he can knock himself out, but don't call it min/max.

[logankeepes]

The problem with my Sage is that i have very little Alacrity. Before i got rid of my alacrity, I had no problems keeping up with my guild mates on a parser, but since i've gotten rid of it i am no use to them. My scoundrel is fine with no alacrity because of the way scoundrel healing is built, but my sage just HAS to have alac. my HPS and total healing are embarrassing with my sage. i've got 2350 willpower, 35% crit chance, and i'm surely over the surge cap. when i get off work i'm switching my enhancements out for alac ones.

[Kuvox]

The problem with my Sage is that i have very little Alacrity. Before i got rid of my alacrity, I had no problems keeping up with my guild mates on a parser, but since i've gotten rid of it i am no use to them. My scoundrel is fine with no alacrity because of the way scoundrel healing is built, but my sage just HAS to have alac. my HPS and total healing are embarrassing with my sage. i've got 2350 willpower, 35% crit chance, and i'm surely over the surge cap. when i get off work i'm switching my enhancements out for alac ones.

 

Same scenario tried.

 

In May a fellow Sage healer and I thought that dropping alacrity in favor of surge would help us clear HM Kephess. We parse everything. We did 7 fights one night with both of us having little to no alacrity in our gear. Our healing output was about 200 HPS lower than what we were used to. The next night I increased alacrity to around 9.5% or so but my friend didn't have the credits to pull out his mods and enhancements so he continued healing with little alacrity. My healing increased to where it had been previously while my friends was quite a bit lower than mine (and we are usually neck and neck).

 

And to the OP's point that alacrity is not needed b/c of frequent use of Salvation and Healing Trance I would argue that that's not really true until boss fights are really down pat. For example, tonight we did HM Denova. I rarely used deliverance or benevolence. By contrast, last night we did the first 4 bosses of HM TFB. Because we don't have HM TFB down yet, and had new players, I had to use Deliverance and Benevolence WAY more than I would have liked. When Salvation and Healing Trance were both on cooldown the raid was taking such damage that I was absolutely forced to use deliverance and benevolence and was very glad to have had a decent alacrity rating when using those heals.

[Krazy_Karl]

But for people who are on raid progression currently working on Terror from Beyond on hard mode, cranking every last ounce of DPS or healing possible from their toon is a priority.

 

Not true. TFB HM is complete, and it was done without what the thread seems to label as "ideal" optimization.

 

Running with no alacrity is not min/max and not mathematically optimal. You are still allowed to gear that way if you choose, and if you can still clear the content, that's just dandy. But don't call it min/max or mathematically optimal.

 

Min/Max != mathmatically optimal in the context of what I was initially curious about. Min/Max in what I was saying is that I optimized all of my mods such that I used none of the "lettered" mods/enhancements, the optimal armorings, and the ideal main stat allocation.

 

Play style plays such a huge factor into the "secondary" stats which is what we were discussing and I was curious as to peoples mileage, not what formulas say. The best and only argument for Alacrity that was valid in said context was the mobility and use of "downtime" when not casting heals. Anything that relies on a sim, or a theoretical view of sustained healing (HPS) is irrelevant in the context of this discussion because we are not healing in a vacuum. Maybe I was not eloquent enough in my original post, and apologies for that.

 

However, if players want to base how they "feel" their healing is on math and HPS, so be it. But unless they actually try other combinations, how will they know what is best for them for sure?

 

Regards,

KK

Edited October 5, 2012 by Krazy_Karl

[Ycoga]

Not true. TFB HM is complete, and it was done without what the thread seems to label as "ideal" optimization.

An advertisement that you clocked TFB HM without a specific gear setup. Congrats...

 

Play style plays such a huge factor into the "secondary" stats which is what we were discussing and I was curious as to peoples mileage, not what formulas say. ... However, if players want to base how they "feel" their healing is on math and HPS, so be it.

Am I the only one who has min/maxed my full Campaign gear such that I run with 0% Alacrity?

 

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that 0% is mathematical and that it affects my HPS mileage. Min, max... hmm.

 

And if you're using either of the other two spells (Deliverance, Benevolence) with any frequency at all, you're doing it wrong.

Frequency? Would you mind proving that for us? Or would that be too mathematical and an indication of mileage? A mile being a measure of distance, where mileage is distance over time (or distance per unit of resource consumed).

 

But hey, you could just go with how 'you feel', which is obviously a certain smugness.

 

Say... are you that special guy that runs with 0% alacrity?

Edited October 5, 2012 by Ycoga

[Khevar]

...

 

However, if players want to base how they "feel" their healing is on math and HPS, so be it. But unless they actually try other combinations, how will they know what is best for them for sure?

 

Regards,

KK

This is a fair point, but logankeepes, Kuvox and myself all posted specific experience with 0% alacrity -- the claims we make aren't being made from an Ivory Tower of pure theory.

 

In this thread I've seen mention of math and theorycrafting describe the benefits of a moderate amount of alacrity. I've had personal experience in end-game content with it, and I've seen a very clear example of Kuvox losing healing without alacrity and gaining it back when put back in.

 

Seems pretty cut-and-dried.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Khevar