@ BioWare: Is the population wrong or did Marauders Need Buffs & Mercs Nerfs?

[Slicktime]

I didn't say I was great. I'm actually just a pretty average marauder player. Commandos have the tools to counter a marauder. Not to mention can get a bubble that makes then uninterpretable.

 

I played a marauder when they were Underpowered; Damage was subpar, a number of abilities didnt work correctly, and there were a few talents that didnt apply their correct damage increases and multipliers.

 

The fact is marauders are not overpowered. But they do counter some class more effectively than others. Stealth classes and snipers can destory all but the most pro-marauder players.

 

go ahead name the tools that we have. woooo a bubble. a marauder gets 3 which 1 makes them invincible and they get to disappear. so again... what tools.

[americanaussie]

First off, I don't see anything different about Marauders. (Yes, I have a level 49 marauder, a level 50 operative, and a level 50 merc).

 

This latest game update was all about getting Mercs benefits they should have had to begin with including an interrupt shot. So mercs didn't get nerfed.

 

Lastly, the reason a marauder CANNOT force leap at a SNIPER is because they are "IN COVER". That totally goes against the whole going in with guns blazing mercenary style of play. If you don't like that style of play and want to snipe at things from afar, behind a cover, then play a sniper.

 

Oh and operatives are not a ranged class. Their best attacks are all up close and personal so force leaping at them should be fine as well.

Edited September 30, 2012 by americanaussie

[Slicktime]

First off, I don't see anything different about Marauders. (Yes, I have a level 49 marauder, a level 50 operative, and a level 50 merc).

 

This latest game update was all about getting Mercs benefits they should have had to begin with including an interrupt shot. So mercs didn't get nerfed.

 

Lastly, the reason a marauder CANNOT force leap at a SNIPER is because they are "IN COVER". That totally goes against the whole going in with guns blazing mercenary style of play. If you don't like that style of play and want to snipe at things from afar, behind a cover, then play a sniper.

 

Oh and operatives are not a ranged class. Their best attacks are all up close and personal so force leaping at them should be fine as well.

 

the kb with stockstrike was 10000x more usefull against marauders than an interrupt. ravage/master strike cannot be interrupted, with our stockstrike kb we could. a stun that breaks after 2 sec. is nothing. it does nothing. we can still be slowed we can still be rooted we can still be attacked in that 2 second period they are rooted. so again the root we have now is complete and utter crap

Edited September 30, 2012 by Slicktime

[Jherad]

Commandos have the tools to counter a marauder. Not to mention can get a bubble that makes then uninterpretable.

 

Er... What? Commandos are dogfood to marauders.

 

Combat medics can pop a shield once every 2 mins that makes them uninterruptable for 12 seconds. The major complaints about commandos are for DPS.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Jherad

[Dacer]

the kb with stockstrike was 10000x more usefull against marauders than an interrupt. ravage/master strike cannot be interrupted, with our stockstrike kb we could. a stun that breaks after 2 sec. is nothing. it does nothing. we can still be slowed we can still be rooted we can still be attacked in that 2 second period they are rooted. so again the root we have now is complete and utter crap

 

ravage/master strike can be stopped with a stun, mez or knockback. And its base CD is 30 seconds.

[Slicktime]

ravage/master strike can be stopped with a stun, mez or knockback. And its base CD is 30 seconds.

 

right. i had 2 kb now i only have 1 with patch 1.4 they made stockstrike a 2 second stun right next to me instead of a knockback. so now i have 1 stun and 1 knockback. thats it. thats all the survivability i have, and guess what.... everybody knows it so they have no problem using the cc breaker when they fight us because they know after our 1 stun and 1 kb we are out of tricks.

[ArchangelLBC]

I didn't say I was great. I'm actually just a pretty average marauder player. Commandos have the tools to counter a marauder. Not to mention can get a bubble that makes then uninterpretable.

 

I think you'll find it's the healing spec that has the tools. Only they can make Reactive shield give you interrupt immunity, which of course makes them really annoying when someone fills their resolve bar and now they're free to pop reactive shield and heal themselves to full in the knowledge that there's nothing anyone can do about it. They also got a ranged on demand snare added to their AoE heal (snares enemies, heals allies I'm assuming), which is way nicer than the snares attached to the other two trees.

 

The DPS trees are very VERY limited in their available tools to effectively deal with melee. I have a 46 sent now so I better understand where Sents/Maras are coming from, but fair is fair and my response to you is to go and try it. You know how maras play and should effectively have the knowledge to counter them assuming you really have the tools. Go and try it.

 

This latest game update was all about getting Mercs benefits they should have had to begin with including an interrupt shot. So mercs didn't get nerfed.

 

Lastly, the reason a marauder CANNOT force leap at a SNIPER is because they are "IN COVER". That totally goes against the whole going in with guns blazing mercenary style of play. If you don't like that style of play and want to snipe at things from afar, behind a cover, then play a sniper.

 

The interrupt was something they should have had a long time ago as you said, but BW giveth and taketh away it seems. The change to the stockstrike knockback made an already poorly performing PVP spec even worse. They took that knockback which was useful for knocking off people of ledges in Huttball and for interrupting Ravages and Masterstrikes which is not to be overlooked. The change to a root is kind of a sick joke tbh. We've said for awhile that we needed a root or reliable baseline snare as something that's in the toolbox of EVERY ranged class in many games, including the ranged and even the melee classes in this game and when they finally give it to us they attach it to an ability with a 4m range? Are you SERIOUS? Screw you Bioware.

 

You might think some sort of cover mechanic goes against the guns blazing merc style but again I feel like you don't really play the class. The casting nature and vulnerability to interrupts, along with no real way to create distance and keep it that way can make the class a nightmare if you get singled out. I've been asking for a long time for a Hold the Line/Hydraulic Override type ability high in the vanguard tree (a tree with only 2 abilities btw) which grants a short spurt of interrupt immunity, possible leap/pull immunity too though at this point I'm not all that picky. 8s of interrupt immunity high in the tree with a 30s cooldown? It's use would be tactical but it would give the class a TOOL and I think make it both more fun to play and make it much more potent in all warzones.

 

Now you may have some objections to this idea, and certainly there are those who can make the class work, but honestly I wouldn't bother if I were you. Rest assured that bioware isn't listening.

[Xerain]

all my abilities have a cast time or channeled sooooooo that is impossible. don't comment when you don't know what you are talking about.

 

You have plenty of abilities that are instant cast and can be used on the run.

 

The difference between a good ranged player and a bad ranged player is the good ranged player knows when to stop casting and start using instants to keep the melee at ranged.. You have to run and gun sometimes and youc ant just be a turret all the time.

[Jherad]

ravage/master strike can be stopped with a stun, mez or knockback. And its base CD is 30 seconds.

 

And the base CD on our stun is 60 seconds. Not to mention that every marauder and his dog picks up ravager, increasing the damage and reducing the cooldown of ravage to 27 seconds.

 

Against a marauder we have to burn out main knockback early (assuming we were leapt to), as they tend to frontload their damage whatever their spec. Then against an equally skilled, equally geared marauder, we're essentially hoping we have ALL our cooldowns available, they have none, and that help is on the way. We could delay the inevitable a little longer with the second knockback to break the ravage.

 

The OP knows what he is talking about when he asks why Marauders needed buffs. He plays one of the better ones on our server, along with one of the best mercenaries.

[rob_y]

With Combat Medics now having a 30m snare on Kolto Bomb and Assault Specialists really only having one ability they need to stop and cast often (Full Auto, since they can now use both Assault Plastique and Sticky Grenade in the same rotation, it keeps the damage higher without stopping to cast), it's really only the Gunnery spec that has any sort of issue with keeping melee off, and I would imagine that that's SUPPOSED to be the weakness of a class like that. So... working as intended?

[Jherad]

With Combat Medics now having a 30m snare on Kolto Bomb and Assault Specialists really only having one ability they need to stop and cast often (Full Auto, since they can now use both Assault Plastique and Sticky Grenade in the same rotation, it keeps the damage higher without stopping to cast), it's really only the Gunnery spec that has any sort of issue with keeping melee off, and I would imagine that that's SUPPOSED to be the weakness of a class like that. So... working as intended?

 

Heh, I have yet to see the assault spec commando that could 'keep off'' a top marauder. They're better, yes... In that they can take down a little more of the mara's HP before dying.

 

As for gunnery commandos, sure. Why is it that gunnery spec is the only AC spec in the game expected to have this weakness, to this extent? (To the point where NO self respecting RWZ teams use them) Past a certain team skill level, gunnery commandos are obselete in that they can be rendered completely useless, no matter the skill with which they are played.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Jherad

[rob_y]

Heh, I have yet to see the assault spec commando that could 'keep off'' a top marauder. They're better, yes... In that they can take down a little more of the mara's HP before dying.

 

As for gunnery commandos, sure. Why is it that gunnery spec is the only AC spec in the game expected to have this weakness, to this extent? (To the point where NO self respecting RWZ teams use them) Past a certain team skill level, gunnery commandos are obselete in that they can be rendered completely useless, no matter the skill with which they are played.

 

It's my personal belief that Sentinels/Marauders are designed to be better at 1v1 than other classes, and I like it that way (I actually have neither a Sentinel nor a Marauder, but I do have a 46 Commando). I don't want all classes to have equal abilities in all situations. I'm not saying that Commandos don't maybe need another buff, but in my ideal world, classes like Commandos and Sages do their best to get away from a 1v1 with a Sentinel or Marauder of equal player skill, while providing more to the team fight than a Sentinel would (this is the part that might not currently be true).

 

I don't know if Bioware thinks the same way, but it seems that way.

[ArchangelLBC]

With Combat Medics now having a 30m snare on Kolto Bomb and Assault Specialists really only having one ability they need to stop and cast often (Full Auto, since they can now use both Assault Plastique and Sticky Grenade in the same rotation, it keeps the damage higher without stopping to cast), it's really only the Gunnery spec that has any sort of issue with keeping melee off, and I would imagine that that's SUPPOSED to be the weakness of a class like that. So... working as intended?

 

Actually Charged Bolts also has to be casted if you want to reset HiB more than once every 15ish seconds. And unlike Full Auto you have to cast the entire bloody thing to get the effect, whereas with FA the proc will pop up immediately if its gonna show up at all. Also sticky grenade damage is meh at best. I mean don't get me wrong. I like that we essentially have another instant use ability but I'm not entirely sure they intended to do that and even if they did it doesn't change the fact that after the initial burst you're left casting.

 

The weakness of a class like gunnery is the same as the weakness of say the marksmanship sniper. You're effectively immobile so that you can cast effectively which don't let anyone fool you is where a lot of the effective damage comes from. The difference is Snipers have the tools to counter this weakness. It's like how melee their weakness is that they have to engage at range, but this is made up for by many of them with gap closers. Gunnery Spec is to ranged classes what a DPS Operative/Assassin would be without any sort of stealth or sprint.

 

It's my personal belief that Sentinels/Marauders are designed to be better at 1v1 than other classes, and I like it that way (I actually have neither a Sentinel nor a Marauder, but I do have a 46 Commando). I don't want all classes to have equal abilities in all situations. I'm not saying that Commandos don't maybe need another buff, but in my ideal world, classes like Commandos and Sages do their best to get away from a 1v1 with a Sentinel or Marauder of equal player skill, while providing more to the team fight than a Sentinel would (this is the part that might not currently be true).

 

I don't know if Bioware thinks the same way, but it seems that way.

 

The problem right now is that the way sents/maras perform better at 1v1 is to have quite a lot of burst combined with good defensive cooldowns. This is as opposed to my Hybrid shadow which has great survivability but is not exactly setting any records in the burst department. On my sent I can just roll up on someone and have them dead a few GCDs later. This means that sents work well 1v1 AND in group situations since burst is king of PVP (whereas again my shadow which is good 1v1 isn't all that great in the group where burst is king). So yeah, especially once you also account for the group buffs sents/maras give, they're contributing more in both a group setting and when left to go off on their own.

 

Also I hate when people say "Commandos should be avoiding 1v1s vs Sents/Maras. I know this. They know it too though. They KNOW they're going to come out on the good end of a 1v1 encounter and so it's in their interest to seek the encounter out. Left to my own devices I'm a threat to what they're trying to do within the framework of the warzone. If they engage me I stop being a threat. Snipers are the same way but the sniper can make the Sent pay cash for his trouble. Commandos can't do that, and we can't keep them away. We have to make ourselves try to go unnoticed and that puts our performance way too much in the hands of the other people in the warzone, both allies and enemies.

Edited September 30, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[Jherad]

Yeah:

 

a) warzones are such small scale (8v8) that any class that is 'better' for a 1v1 automatically has an advantage, especially when there are splits (eg. 2 guarding or attacking a turret/door)

 

b) With the exception of snipers, the concept of 'ranged' in pvp is little better than a temporary illusion in this game. Most melee have the ability to close to their optimal distance and stay there virtually at will.

 

c) there is no such thing as being able to 'avoid' fighting particular classes as a commando. You have no escape tools, and no means of picking and choosing your fights.

[Xerain]

Yeah:

 

a) warzones are such small scale (8v8) that any class that is 'better' for a 1v1 automatically has an advantage, especially when there are splits (eg. 2 guarding or attacking a turret/door)

 

b) With the exception of snipers, the concept of 'ranged' in pvp is little better than a temporary illusion in this game. Most melee have the ability to close to their optimal distance and stay there virtually at will.

 

c) there is no such thing as being able to 'avoid' fighting particular classes as a commando. You have no escape tools, and no means of picking and choosing your fights.

 

Well do the smart thing and learn to focus off a melee and use your group to have peels pull off you and guard.

[Spoletta]

Or just learn to kite marauders, it's the easiest class to kite in the game, even with a commando.

 

No you will not get many cast time done, but you can take them down with just instant cast. No ok it will never happen, the marauders have a lot of defensive CDs but in return can't effectively inflict damage on commandos, so the most likely scenario is that someone else intervenes in the fight before it ends.

 

Marauders are good in a group pvp coordinated situation where they have a CCed, force slowed or rooted target to maul, since they have no real stun and a pitiful snare that get cleansed by really too many classes.

And don't cry about ravager, a good commando will never eat one in a 1v1 situation (friendly tip: You can cleanse) from a watchman spec.

 

No, i don't play marauder and don't have one.

[Jherad]

Well do the smart thing and learn to focus off a melee and use your group to have peels pull off you and guard.

 

Or, you know, the group could just bring a dps along (ie. any other) that doesn't REQUIRE peels and a guard.

 

Or just learn to kite marauders, it's the easiest class to kite in the game, even with a commando.

 

That's the second time I've heard you spout that BS. Do you even have a commando?

[Spoletta]

 

That's the second time I've heard you spout that BS. Do you even have a commando?

 

This is the second time i've heard you spout your "I'm high valor so i'm obviously better than you and whatever you say i'm right and you are wrong" attitude. Learn to learn.

 

I could explain you step by step how to kite a marauder, but it would require a long post and i have little time on my hand right now. Will post it this evening.

[Jherad]

This is the second time i've heard you spout your "I'm high valor so i'm obviously better than you and whatever you say i'm right and you are wrong" attitude. Learn to learn.

 

I could explain you step by step how to kite a marauder, but it would require a long post and i have little time on my hand right now. Will post it this evening.

 

No no, that's fine. Just one answer will do... again...

 

Do you even have a commando?

 

Edit: I'm overjoyed that you want to help us learn to play. I'm willing to come to your server, find a top rated marauder or sentinel and fraps a few fights between your commando and them. I'll post them to youtube and we can all experience your wisdom demonstrated in a practical setting. You know, IF you have a commando.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Jherad

[bathrobe]

No commando is going to kite my Mara for long. They might be able to delay the inevitable, in a duel scenario, but in a wz, it's a different story.

 

I'm a Mara, and it's stupid obvious that Mercs need love. Even their healing spec is inferior to either an Op or a Sorc. However, there's no quick fix. They need a fundamental change in the way they deal damage and the way they kite. Right now, there's no reason to bring a merc over a PT, none.

[Slicktime]

No no, that's fine. Just one answer will do... again...

 

Do you even have a commando?

 

Edit: I'm overjoyed that you want to help us learn to play. I'm willing to come to your server, find a top rated marauder or sentinel and fraps a few fights between your commando and them. I'll post them to youtube and we can all experience your wisdom demonstrated in a practical setting. You know, IF you have a commando.

 

i would LOVE to see that video.

[Slicktime]

No commando is going to kite my Mara for long. They might be able to delay the inevitable, in a duel scenario, but in a wz, it's a different story.

 

I'm a Mara, and it's stupid obvious that Mercs need love. Even their healing spec is inferior to either an Op or a Sorc. However, there's no quick fix. They need a fundamental change in the way they deal damage and the way they kite. Right now, there's no reason to bring a merc over a PT, none.

 

exactly ^^^^

[MidichIorian]

I think it's funny how warriors argue that one of their trees needed a buff. How about you just *********** head to the skill mentor and re-spec instead, FOR FREE. I guess that's too much trouble for them but they're perfectly fine with everyone els grinding a new class to 50 since their current classes didnt have any viable trees. Actually, I take that back because 99 % of the current warriors have done just that. They played sorcs and werent even good when sorc was refered to as OP so when the next class was flagged as fotm they didnt hesitate a second. I really feel your pain warriors.

[Dacer]

I think it's funny how warriors argue that one of their trees needed a buff. How about you just *********** head to the skill mentor and re-spec instead, FOR FREE. I guess that's too much trouble for them but they're perfectly fine with everyone els grinding a new class to 50 since their current classes didnt have any viable trees. Actually, I take that back because 99 % of the current warriors have done just that. They played sorcs and werent even good when sorc was refered to as OP so when the next class was flagged as fotm they didnt hesitate a second. I really feel your pain warriors.

 

I for one have been playing a marauder since early access.... I can tell you, and you should know if you were around back then, that marauders were all but totally broken until 1.2.

 

In fact the only worse class in terms of not meeting desired performance was an Operative. Where they could pop their adrenals and relic and stun lock and kill Anyone in 3-4 seconds.

 

Fact is... from what bioware sees in their game metrics - marauders are performing as intended.

 

Why dont you all complain about assassins and the crap they can do?

[Slurmez]

If you knew how to play and stay at ranged you'd know a marauder can't face tank every other class. You'd know a sniper counters us pretty hard.

 

If you have problems with a sniper on a mara then the issue is entirely you