FreePrometheus Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The thing is, no matter what you put in front of todays playerbase. They will never be happy. Its as simple as that. Admittedly some things do better than others. They stay the course. But, i dont think i have heard of many games in the past few years that DIDN'T get some bashing from gamers. People are too impatient, and too sure that they alone know what is right for a particular game. I'm sure ive been the same. At the end of the day, most of the people that will come to SWTOR will be MMO players. They play, realise the game isnt up to their standards yet and leave. The mainstay of the more hardcore SWTOR players will be Star Wars fans of various backgrounds. If you are going to rely on things such as statistics for a game like this, then you will be severely fooled. As i say, the MMO players will try the game out and leave. Which skews the statistics somewhat as it assumed they are part of the main playerbase for this game. There are also other factors such as financial situations for various people. Just because subs go down, doesnt mean the game is bad. It means, that casual players have got bored (as they do with most games) and left. And some people have had to unsub for other reasons such as financial problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenlo Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 SWTOR forums. You'll never find a more wretched hive of QQ and Negative Nancies, we must be cautious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreePrometheus Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 SWTOR forums. You'll never find a more wretched hive of QQ and Negative Nancies, we must be cautious. Someone had to say it Suprised i havent seen it already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphandor Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) SWTOR a failer? That is news to me. People need to stop using WoW as the standard. People will not just up and leave a game they have years invested in. It doesn't happen. Didn't fully invest myself into SWToR until I walked away from WoW. This is really a fun game and in many ways a bit more complex then the now dumbed down for 5yr olds WoW. These people need to know this game is great. My hope is that FTP will prove it. Prove it by showing people like and love this game just do not want to pay a sub for two games because they can't leave the other. No matter what that other game happens to be. People do not walk away from characters they dedicated part of thier life to. Edited September 30, 2012 by Gryphandor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphandor Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 SWTOR forums. You'll never find a more wretched hive of QQ and Negative Nancies, we must be cautious. Well I am sure a good chunk of the population are people from SWG. They make up a good bit of the wretched hive you are speaking of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durasturan Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The thing is, no matter what you put in front of todays playerbase. They will never be happy. Its as simple as that. Admittedly some things do better than others. They stay the course. But, i dont think i have heard of many games in the past few years that DIDN'T get some bashing from gamers. People are too impatient, and too sure that they alone know what is right for a particular game. I'm sure ive been the same. At the end of the day, most of the people that will come to SWTOR will be MMO players. They play, realise the game isnt up to their standards yet and leave. The mainstay of the more hardcore SWTOR players will be Star Wars fans of various backgrounds. If you are going to rely on things such as statistics for a game like this, then you will be severely fooled. As i say, the MMO players will try the game out and leave. Which skews the statistics somewhat as it assumed they are part of the main playerbase for this game. There are also other factors such as financial situations for various people. Just because subs go down, doesnt mean the game is bad. It means, that casual players have got bored (as they do with most games) and left. And some people have had to unsub for other reasons such as financial problems. Your reasoning is kind of weird and I don't think it is at all accurate. Look at the first thing you said... "they will never be happy..." well why is that? Because when a player can say "I just won't resub this month and use that money to buy TL2 and play that until new content gets released" and then new content doesn't come out, so that player stays unsubbed and uses that money to buy a different game, they aren't being some fickle stupid child that is just never happy with anything. MMO's have gotten lazy, they haven't adapted to the market. They have drastically more competition than when WoW released and more and more games are released, some of them are really good and some of those are really cheap. If SWTOR wants to compete, if they want people to STAY SUBBED and that's the kicker, not just having people come in, play the new content for 2-3 months and then leave again, they need to get some content that forces people to stay in. Right now they may be offering a "good" product, but not at the price they're asking and that has nothing to do with players being "entitled" but seeing the options and saying "pass." Because players aren't just "MMO players," they are consumers. Add on top of that the fact that the big name titles are drastically LESS interested in qualitly... Look at Activision and EA's quarterly financials, how much they spend on development vs. advertising. They'd rather skimp on the actually game, but super hype it and drive up sales that way and its making for crappier and crappier games. Since gaming has devloved from "group of friends colleagues gets great idea they are passionate about and put in 60+hr weeks to bring it to market relying on word of mouth to carry it" into "mega production study cashes in on latest market trend, scours America for recent grads with no experience to take advantage of recently acquired IP," quality has been in steady decline and CONSUMERS notice it. SWTOR released about 6 months too early, should have released at stage of 1.2 or maybe 1.3. The client is crap, single threaded lol? Didn't hire enough experienced talent, look at mistakes like Ilum and all the bugs that have plagued this game. It all comes down to money, they were willing to sink 150M to make this game, but not another 50 to actually make it truly great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Well I am sure a good chunk of the population are people from SWG. They make up a good bit of the wretched hive you are speaking of. Right and most of them are here to fulfill Seawulf56's agenda of trashing the game no matter what Bioware does until LA forces Bioware to sunset the game like they did SWG they have this stupid hope that if TOR closes they will bring back SWG or make SWG2. IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN Edited September 30, 2012 by Jett-Rinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durasturan Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Right and most of them are here to fulfill Seawulf56's agenda of trashing the game game no matter until LA forces Bioware to sunset the game like they did SWG they have this stupid hope that if TOR closes they will bring back SWG or make SWG2. IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN I think most of the SWG fans are rightly pissed that a game they loved was shut down to make way for this one and it hasn't lived up to the hype surrounding it, much less their expectations. Speaking as a SWG fan myself I don't want SWTOR to fail, I want it to incorporate the things that made SWG good. I'll be the first to admit galaxies had some pretty crappy stuff in it too, but new titles should learn from the mistakes of their predecessors and SWTOR doesn't seem to have done that. They are making the same mistakes MMO's have made since the genre started (as well as some new ones)... and it's not very fun to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I think most of the SWG fans are rightly pissed that a game they loved was shut down to make way for this one and it hasn't lived up to the hype surrounding it, much less their expectations. Speaking as a SWG fan myself I don't want SWTOR to fail, I want it to incorporate the things that made SWG good. I'll be the first to admit galaxies had some pretty crappy stuff in it too, but new titles should learn from the mistakes of their predecessors and SWTOR doesn't seem to have done that. They are making the same mistakes MMO's have made since the genre started (as well as some new ones)... and it's not very fun to watch. That isn't going to happen bolting on SWG will work about as well as the NGE did and then these same malcontents will be screaming New NGE on the forums and demanding the game to be shut down, I'm very familiar with their manifesto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durasturan Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 That isn't going to happen bolting on SWG will work about as well as the NGE did and then these same malcontents will be screaming New NGE on the forums and demanding the game to be shut down, I'm very familiar with their manifesto. I really don't believe you are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) I really don't believe you are... Tough. All the SWG crying is nothing but noise on the forums, the devs see it for what it is and ignore it. Edited September 30, 2012 by Jett-Rinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplius Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 SWTOR forums. You'll never find a more wretched hive of QQ and Negative Nancies, we must be cautious. and there is one more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blinkyn Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I am not sure any new MMO can succeed in the current marketplace since WOW's release. This is not because WOW is the end all/be all of MMO's, nothing could be farther from the truth, but because they all try to chase the WOW MMO design theory and ignore the traditional MMORPG design that kept people engrossed for years. WOW succeeded with its race to the end game design only because they brought an existing fan base of RTS and FPS players who loved the Warcraft story line and truly believed that Blizzard was the best game company on the planet. Now the entire genre is defined this way and the original concept of an open world that a players character lives in has been discredited and even an expansion with 1 month leveling process, to max level, sends the impatient players into a rage. How can any game succeed when it must spend a year or more creating content that is consumed in a month? What is the point of a player chasing gear as they level when every expansion obsoletes all but the very best gear of the previous expansion, in the first zone, and then allows players in quest greens to earn this new gear in under an hour of play? WOW does not evolve the game with each expansion, it rewrites the game with new combat/talents/play styles and completely obsoletes all previous content so that replay value is limited to a rushed leveling process. The majority of the WOW zones are completely empty because of this design and no CRZ, their latest idea, can make obsolete zones meaningful again. New MMO's, like SWTOR, are caught up in the WOW design theory as they want the 10 million subscribers bringing in the big bucks, but cannot meet player expectations for content and abilities that match WOW of today. Perhaps if SWTOR had included 4 expansions worth of leveling content, that players could blow through in a couple of weeks and never visit again until they create an alt, they would have been considered more even with WOW when in truth the only content in WOW that matters in the latest expansion. I do not know if the traditional MMORPG design could succeed today with a player base caught up in the "end game is all that matters" endlessly repeated content style of WOW. But if one did come out, where it was once again "about the journey and not the destination", I would love to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) It's funny how fanboys haven't realized this game IS a failure. Regardless if you like it or not, the game IS a failure by any measure. There's no way to argue that the BIGGEST MMO launch in history, losing some 70% of their players in a matter of months, could in any way shape or form be anything BUT a failure. And if you argue the majority of people didn't quit, your a fool, merely looking at the 100+ servers consolidated to 8 is absolute proof the game lost a TON of people. You have to be literally blind to believe the game is a success, or succeeding in any way. Many senior devs have either quit or been canned, there's been 2 rounds of lay offs, 2 waves of server merges, and the game is about to go free to play. And before you spout off the usual lies/excuses that were used to save face, the makers of the game for months before said they had no plans to decrease the size of the game team, and never had any plans to go free to play. They did both because the game failed, and failed hard. Depends on your defintion of failure I would guess. My definition of failure may be entirely different from yours. For me for someone or something to fail is that they completely give up and stop trying. While there are some things they haven't done so well I will grant you that they have yet to stop trying. I don't see them sitting on their hands and not trying . They have added a few things (correctly this patch had too many bugs) but to me that shows they are trying so it is not a failure . That has been my defintion of failure since I was a child. My parents instilled in me the only way to fail is to stop trying. Sure things may not work out at first they way you expect but you haven't fail unless you stop trying and I have not seen them stop trying. Edited September 30, 2012 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Well I am sure a good chunk of the population are people from SWG. They make up a good bit of the wretched hive you are speaking of. Lets be careful in lumping all SWG players as whiners. I will grant most are but not all. I'm from SWG and you can check my posts and find I rarely complain unless it is something that really needs fixed (like the ship bug at the moment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utio Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Depends on your defintion of failure I would guess. My definition of failure may be entirely different from yours. For me for someone or something to fail is that they completely give up and stop trying. While there are some things they haven't done so well I will grant you that they have yet to stop trying. I don't see them sitting on their hands and not trying . They have added a few things (correctly this patch had too many bugs) but to me that shows they are trying so it is not a failure . That has been my defintion of failure since I was a child. My parents instilled in me the only way to fail is to stop trying. Sure things may not work out at first they way you expect but you haven't fail unless you stop trying and I have not seen them stop trying. No, try not. Do, or do not. Lol, couldn't resist. I'm not sure the game is a failure. It failed at a lot of things, but it's still going, so it's not a complete failure IMO. They really need to up their game tho, excusing the pun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Tough. All the SWG crying is nothing but noise on the forums, the devs see it for what it is and ignore it. Correction a lot of SWG players are crying but not all. There are some that came to SWTOR with no expectations but to find a game and play it with friends as I have and am enjoying it. I have never once wanted this game to be like SWG. The only thing I ever stated I wish was more like SWG was the crafting. I have always wanted more detail and more personalization with the crafting (i.e. more colors) Edited September 30, 2012 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) No, try not. Do, or do not. Lol, couldn't resist. I'm not sure the game is a failure. It failed at a lot of things, but it's still going, so it's not a complete failure IMO. They really need to up their game tho, excusing the pun. (lol i was sort of expecting that but funny thing that line never worked on my parents lol) Edited September 30, 2012 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplius Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I am not sure any new MMO can succeed in the current marketplace since WOW's release. This is not because WOW is the end all/be all of MMO's, nothing could be farther from the truth, but because they all try to chase the WOW MMO design theory and ignore the traditional MMORPG design that kept people engrossed for years. WOW succeeded with its race to the end game design only because they brought an existing fan base of RTS and FPS players who loved the Warcraft story line and truly believed that Blizzard was the best game company on the planet. Now the entire genre is defined this way and the original concept of an open world that a players character lives in has been discredited and even an expansion with 1 month leveling process, to max level, sends the impatient players into a rage. How can any game succeed when it must spend a year or more creating content that is consumed in a month? What is the point of a player chasing gear as they level when every expansion obsoletes all but the very best gear of the previous expansion, in the first zone, and then allows players in quest greens to earn this new gear in under an hour of play? WOW does not evolve the game with each expansion, it rewrites the game with new combat/talents/play styles and completely obsoletes all previous content so that replay value is limited to a rushed leveling process. The majority of the WOW zones are completely empty because of this design and no CRZ, their latest idea, can make obsolete zones meaningful again. New MMO's, like SWTOR, are caught up in the WOW design theory as they want the 10 million subscribers bringing in the big bucks, but cannot meet player expectations for content and abilities that match WOW of today. Perhaps if SWTOR had included 4 expansions worth of leveling content, that players could blow through in a couple of weeks and never visit again until they create an alt, they would have been considered more even with WOW when in truth the only content in WOW that matters in the latest expansion. I do not know if the traditional MMORPG design could succeed today with a player base caught up in the "end game is all that matters" endlessly repeated content style of WOW. But if one did come out, where it was once again "about the journey and not the destination", I would love to play it. "nobody can beat him, so hes no champion anymore"..really? i dont know wows starter budget , but i doubt it was 200 mio and six years developement and wow lore counts more than SW lore? no all those VO simply wasted too many resources leaving only a fraction for actual content,,some of the maps are smaller than my yard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlazingShadow Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Most SWG players already stopped playing the TORtanic. I'm here because it's the only Star Wars choice I have. If they release a Sonic the Hedgehog MMO or a new openworld SWG-esque MMO, I'm gone. Just biding my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) "nobody can beat him, so hes no champion anymore"..really? i dont know wows starter budget , but i doubt it was 200 mio and six years developement and wow lore counts more than SW lore? no all those VO simply wasted too many resources leaving only a fraction for actual content,,some of the maps are smaller than my yard Most of the people I know do not think the VO was a wasted resource. As far as Wow is concerned it matters little to me what their budget or anything else is regarding Wow. I played it once for maybe a month and left but yet I never went to the forums to complain over and over about it either. It didn't fit what I wanted to play so I just left. Edited September 30, 2012 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Correction a lot of SWG players are crying but not all. There are some that came to SWTOR with no expectations but to find a game and play it with friends as I have and am enjoying it. I have never once wanted this game to be like SWG. The only thing I ever stated I wish was more like SWG was the crafting. I have always wanted more detail and more personalization with the crafting (i.e. more colors) Point taken and you are right sadly the majority drowns out folks like you which is why the mods have stepped up taking action on the agenda based and mindless hate posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Point taken and you are right sadly the majority drowns out folks like you which is why the mods have stepped up taking action on the agenda based and mindless hate posts. Unfortunely I will admit you are right . Sometimes I really wonder why they came to play here if all they want to do is stir up trouble. I also wonder if that is not the reason SWG was shut down. I can remember going to the forums before the announcement and seeing complaint after complaint about this or that. No matter what they added to SWG they would complain and then when they announced they were closing SWG the same ones that were complaining and bashing the game did an 180 turn around and change their tune. I know what was told to us by the devs that it was a mutual decision and it probably was but I am also wondering if in part the devs were tired of dealing with the same complaints day after day no matter what they tried to do. And yea I am probably going to get some people mad at me for saying that. Edited September 30, 2012 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoobie Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Point taken and you are right sadly the majority drowns out folks like you which is why the mods have stepped up taking action on the agenda based and mindless hate posts. Since most of the "agenda based and mindless hate posts" seem to be coming from the games hardest defenders, this is great news if true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplius Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Most of the people I know do not think the VO was a wasted resource. As far as Wow is concerned it matters little to me what their budget or anything else is regarding Wow. I played it once for maybe a month and left but yet I never went to the forums to complain over and over about it either. It didn't fit what I wanted to play so I just left. ok wasted may be too harsh, but it surely wasnt the big thing either,,if they had only done VO on story and epic missions, ,,cheaper and still enough to give the story some drive but since all the small "kill 3 rats" missions have it too, VO loses a lot of its impact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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