Reverse Engineering Other People's Crafted Black Hole Mods for schematics

[KorrigTS]

I am in support of keeping things the way they are. crafters have to spend millions (typically gbank money) to learn the schematic, so it is not unfair to those that learned them to begin with. The gear grind carrot is not what this game is about, but if u want that for yourself, then don't buy or have crafted any gear. making us suffer a million lost rolls because you dont want to allow crafters to be relevant is selfish in many ways.

 

I'm actually arguing the opposite. I want crafters to be relevant. I think if someone puts in the countless hours raiding and wiping to learn a schematic, then it should be relevant. However, when someone learns the recipe once and then multiple people steal the recipe, then it starts to become less valuable.

[KorrigTS]

I'll admit that I am curious though, how quickly you feel people should be able to gear up. Should a new 50 have to climb the gear ranks completely, from Tionese to Dread Guard, going through weeks of unlucky EV and KP drops, without skipping a step? What about when the next tier is released, is it okay to give them a leg up or is that cheapening the experience? I mean, you had to grind to the top, why shouldn't they?

 

Again, my issue is not with the speed that players can gear up to a point that they can participate in raids. That process should be relatively quick. You can participate in raids with gear much lower quality than BiS. My only issue is the speed at which people can gear up to full BiS, even those that don't step foot into HM TFB.

[moonshoter]

I am in support of keeping things the way they are. crafters have to spend millions (typically gbank money) to learn the schematic, so it is not unfair to those that learned them to begin with. The gear grind carrot is not what this game is about, but if u want that for yourself, then don't buy or have crafted any gear. making us suffer a million lost rolls because you dont want to allow crafters to be relevant is selfish in many ways.

 

I agree and DO to , I learned a armor off of kephess yes it was a Kephess Drop to those who feel insulted by this ... I have sold about 20 mill creds of that armor sense I have Learned it ... and others have learned a Schamaitc Off mine ,,,...

 

AND YOU KNOW WHAT IT DOES NOT BRO ME ....I have spent all most 35 mill learning Schamatic this way , I don"t see the Issue why all the whining .. and YES I RUN HMTFB and HAVE A FEW 27s and could care less If anyone lerans a Schamatic from what I know .....

 

And the Eleite are allways selfish , can't stand it when others have something they think should only be theres ...

 

SO im SO gald this is not a exploit . ))).......... and may or maynot be improved upon later on .... .

 

 

TY BW for this and I hope you keep it up ,,,,

Edited October 19, 2012 by moonshoter

[moonshoter]

And, last month, when I was typing about schematic stealing and ppl going bis too fast because of morons that were giving away g26 (and now 27) for free I was flamed, called elitist and other crap... There even were arguments that the sods who stole my schematic didn't steal it because they had to buy the overpriced (lololololo, charging 50%-25% of the crafting price is overcharging? You people are just scabby) item first...

 

To everyone that steals schematics to flood the servers: screw you. You are the one contributing to unsubbing and demise of your game, because you leave players with no further work.

 

I hate to say it but you are being a elitist , I don't calll others names like you did why are they morons ? ...Ive found that most of those doing this are allerady runin end game content and don't care if any one learns it ... they run HMTFB etccc ...

Edited October 19, 2012 by moonshoter

[KorrigTS]

And the Eleite are allways selfish , can't stand it when others have something they think should only be theres ...

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't have any issue with anyone having it if they acquired it through downing the encounters that dropped the mod in the first place.

 

It has nothing to do with being "elite". Loopholes (read as unintended features in this context) provide people easier ways of obtaining things that others had to put in a lot of effort for. This is a concept that applies to all aspects of life, not just TOR. Nobody likes to feel like their effort is wasted and be left with asking themselves "Why bother?"

[aeterno]

The only thing more ridiculous than BW allowing this to happen is the notion held by some that this was ok before it got widespread and was contained within top guilds as an "alternative gearing path" and is now problematic.

[dinwitt]

You seem to be missing the point of end game raiding. Sure there is the competition side of things, but it really diminishes end game raidings purpose when a crafter can just abuse a 'glitch' or cheat like this and flood the market.

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth so I would appreciate it if you stated clearly what you think the point of end game raiding is. Because what I think it is has no problem with the current crafting system.

 

I know on my server tons of folks did it and it has destroyed the server economy forever. There are people and guilds boasting hundreds of millions of credits now its ridiculous.

 

Those people and guilds with all those credits got it by exploiting a monopoly on the schematic and price gouging anyone that wanted or needed it. The quickest way to stop this is for others to learn it. The easiest way for others to learn it is to buy the crafted product and learn from that. In other words, eliminating the current system will only make this problem worse.

 

I think this will be my last month playing this game at least for a while. I am tired of how bioware has constantly mismanaged their game. They obviously were not prepared for this.

 

And the only reason I've kept playing is because of this crafting sub game and ahving a reasonable way to learn the schematics. It kept things interesting for the long period when I was sick of doing EC HM and waiting for TFB, the same period that caused half my guild to quit.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't have any issue with anyone having it if they acquired it through downing the encounters that dropped the mod in the first place.

 

What's your opinion on people who are clearing the instances, not getting lucky on their reverse engineernig attempts, but still learning schematics from goods bought on the GTN?

 

I'm actually arguing the opposite. I want crafters to be relevant. I think if someone puts in the countless hours raiding and wiping to learn a schematic, then it should be relevant. However, when someone learns the recipe once and then multiple people steal the recipe, then it starts to become less valuable.

 

This idea of others stealing the schematic is ridiculous. You invested time to learn the encounters and got lucky learning a schematic. They are investing credits to buy your products and making the same choice you did, that they'd rather try and learn the schematic than put it to immediate use. If the credits you are receiving for selling the products isn't adequate compensation for the time you spent raiding then its a pricing issue, not a theft one.

 

Again, my issue is not with the speed that players can gear up to a point that they can participate in raids. That process should be relatively quick. You can participate in raids with gear much lower quality than BiS. My only issue is the speed at which people can gear up to full BiS, even those that don't step foot into HM TFB.

 

We could go back and forth on this until the cows come home. You appear to be one of the people who paid exorbitant fees to get into the special club and are upset that the price of admission is being driven down over time. I'm also one of the people in the club, but I'm doing my best to subsidize anyone that wants in after me because I think the party will be better with more people in it.

 

If raiding is about the gear then yeah, the current system stinks. But raiding in SWTOR for the gear has always been a dismal affair since each tier is such an incremental upgrade. If raiding is about the experience then being able to acquire and/or supplement your gear outside of the operation can only serve to reduce the tedium of repeated runs.

[Telanis]

Man I really hope everyone so upset about this unsubs like they're threatening to or claim other people have over this.

 

I raid every week, I've destroyed my gear REing, and yes spent millions buying mods from others to RE. Yet I have 6 enhancement 26 schematics and that's it. No 27s, no hilts, no mods, no barrels, no armorings. And I am one of 2 people in my guild trying to learn these for people.

 

Even with this "feature" learning to craft this stuff is incredibly hard (unless you're filthy rich I suppose). I wouldn't support any move to make it harder. This may not have been intended but it should have been. Raiding every week isn't enough for my guildies to get geared in a reasonable amount of time, most still aren't ready for TFB, and I want to help out by crafting the stuff they didn't get as a drop.

 

I also can't feel sorry for someone who is upset that they used to make 2.5 million per and now only make 400k - 1.5million per. How horrible that must be for you. Nor the people who who are angry because it "shouldn't" be "so easy" to get BiS. Why the hell do you care? It doesn't affect you! You don't have to buy it! You don't have to derive your self-worth and enjoyment of the game from doing things the hard way, either. You're just blaming everyone else for your own mental problems.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Telanis

[Samoth_Nomad]

I can see both sides of the argument.

IMO, acquiring the millions of credits needed, to buy BiS gear off the GTN is just as large of a time investment as Raiding to get BiS. Acquiring the millions of credits needed to buy then RE BiS gear is even bigger(right now, advanced resolve hilt 27 is 15 mil on my server. pretty big cost for a 20% chance...).

I see two alternate routes to gearing and both require a lot of time and dedication to the game.

[Ansalem]

mr super long poster... End game raiding is primarily a competition to get kills first, but its also there for folks to get BiS gear. By having the exploited crafting system like this you diminish the purpose of guilds going to raids every week to gear up. Why would people want to continue going to the end game content if they already have all the best gear? It kills the driving motivation behind raiding. Once the world and server first kills are gone and your guild has cleared the content all that is left is gearing up and with the exploited crafting system you take that away...then people arent going to show up on raid nights...then they go inactive...then they start thinking hey should I go back and play with the next patch...its a snowball effect and Ive experienced this in my guild already in a super short time thanks to the crafting exploits. There is no point chasing after a carrot when you can goto the store and buy a bagfull.

As for the guilds and monopolies not really true...the earliest exploiters did make the most profit but prices are still pretty inflated though Ive actually noticed the materials themselves for the crafting have inflated through the roof ! first day of patch molecular stabs were going for 85k on GTN...price check today is 220k...its causing widespread issues with the economy.

It may be nice for the crafters but it makes it really boring for end game raiders to be geared out this fast. At first folks are like great I can max my gear in a week...they they realize now that their gear is maxxed and no one needs gear in raids that there really is no point to raid...boring boring boring. So unless bioware is going to crank out new content every 2 weeks to make up for it it is going to hurt the pve side of things in game.

[dscount]

It's a GAME! Who cares how fast someone else gears up?

 

BIOWARE - Please keep this feature available to everyone (those already having the Schems would be the only ones to benefit from it's removal).

 

Personally I like having more people geared up and it allows me to play the game and have FUN downing the first HM boss with the guild. The MORE people to have the Schematic the faster prices will drop. I picked up Resolve 26 and prices have gradually decreased over time from $2 mil to $1 mil since then. (More crafters, less cost)

 

I craft, and I've spent millions buying items just to gear up myself first and then my fellow guild mates. I'm totally guilty of crafting for "Free" basically to allow others to share in my success of 20% RE. Sure if the item crit's I get to sell it on GTN for a discount, so I make out. (Most of the time it doesn't). What's the difference between me taking a 20% chance on RE vs. someone in the HM OP making the same decision? Besides the $2 million I just paid, and being inside HM OP? Time and money! We get one chance a week to make that run (if you have an Elite guild, then you have multiple chances via ALT's - those with ONE decent guild get one run a week).

 

I'd rather craft for "Free" with materials than sell on GTN. Couple reasons - the person has to go collect the materials (IE RAID or Purchase each) and it gives me the chance to interact with someone and trade. The second being those that profit from selling raw materials benefit as well. (Fleet comm's for Level 8 Matls box, OPS, etc.) Finally, the 6% GTN fee is just a credit sink that should be avoided when possible.

 

As for BiS - that's BS and those upset about it truly are the "Elite minded" that don't want anyone have the schematic to profit from. Keep in mind you still can't craft the Set Bonus (27) armor so you have that still. Level 26 Armor will have set bonus in the near future as well. (Yea - no Rakata head piece for set bonus)

[KorrigTS]

The dev response clearly indicates that they didn't intend to allow gearing up this easily. Once server/guild first kills are out of the way, the incentive for a large portion of the player base (Notice: I did not say all players and make a sweeping generalization) to continue raiding is to gear out their character and see the increased performance week after week. HM TFB has been out ~3 weeks now (Sept 26) and we're already at the point where players are completely BiS. This takes away one of the major incentives for raiding (Again, not the only incentive, but a large one).

 

I do like the increased market competition to keep prices fair, but I don't like how quickly it makes content feel stale. After a certain period of time all content feels stale regardless, but removing a major reward for doing the content shortens that time period significantly.

[dscount]

patch molecular stabs were going for 85k on GTN...price check today is 220k...its causing widespread issues with the economy.

 

.. they realize now that their gear is maxxed and no one needs gear in raids that there really is no point to raid...boring boring boring. So unless bioware is going to crank out new content every 2 weeks to make up for it it is going to hurt the pve side of things in game.

 

I agree with you on that price check! Even with the increased drop count of those items.

 

I've found in several guilds that you are ALWAYS replacing people with new people and constantly trying to gear up somone or an ALT even. Limitation of once per week run does have an effect on gearing up. I'd LOVE to have a feature that allows me to run MANY OP's but maybe I don't get anything out of them. (Kinda like now cause I don't need anything, but guild mates do).

 

Meanwhile.. GEARING UP 101 for the future. Eliminate the problem with the next stage of gear progression!

 

I suggest BIOWARE do the following: STOP trying to create gear for us! Drop TOKENS for each component so we can make our own end game gear! I'd love to see in an HM OP (8) Set Bonus Armor Tokens, (8) MOD Tokens, (8) Enhancement Tokens, (2) Offhand/Mainhand Tokens and the Shell's drop with the ARMOR token. Oh yeah.. You can't RE these no matter what you do! (Nobody can RE until the next gear progresion in xx months). This means you can win a roll on some stuff but maybe only walk away with HALF a piece of gear you can import missing lower level parts/pieces to get something out of the run. PLUS it eliminates the issues with the generic crappy STAT configuration (Everyone has different approach to stats).

[KorrigTS]

It's a GAME! Who cares how fast someone else gears up?

The "It's a game, who cares?" argument doesn't hold much weight. Football's a game, but I don't think Super Bowl winners would be very happy if SB rings were available to anyone willing to purchase one.

 

As for BiS - that's BS and those upset about it truly are the "Elite minded" that don't want anyone have the schematic to profit from.

 

Nothing to do with elite minded, this is basic human pscyhology.

 

Person A puts in X effort -> Rewarded prize Z

Person B puts in <X effort -> Rewarded prize Z

 

In the end, A is frustrated, and B is thrilled.

 

And for the record, I'm not profiting from any of these schematics. I don't know a single 27 pattern on any of my characters. I can just look at things objectively.

[dinwitt]

HM TFB has been out ~3 weeks now (Sept 26) and we're already at the point where players are completely BiS. This takes away one of the major incentives for raiding (Again, not the only incentive, but a large one).

 

I'm very curious as to who is BiS already. Seeing as you can't get all the gear from TFB HM alone, and very few people have learned any armorings. The only Armoring 27 I've seen on the GTN on Jedi Covenant was a Force Wielder for 3.25 million, which didn't sell as it is an incremental upgrade from the 26. I imagine the only ones BiS are in guilds that are doing the raiding, which isn't at all what most people here are complaining about. And even then I don't think you'll see any BiS agents until EC NM is out, since the off hand gives a barrel instead of the armoring.

 

I agree with you on that price check! Even with the increased drop count of those items.

 

Drops increased, but as more schematics are learned that require twice the mats the prices will keep climbing back up. The same will happen for synthetic energy matrices as soon as armoring 27 schematics become known.

[KorrigTS]

Check the crafting list in my signature, Marauder's have a nice selection

[dinwitt]

Check the crafting list in my signature, Marauder's have a nice selection

 

Color me super jealous of your server, I'd love to see that sort of selection and competition for crafting.

[dscount]

The "It's a game, who cares?" argument doesn't hold much weight. Football's a game, but I don't think Super Bowl winners would be very happy if SB rings were available to anyone willing to purchase one.

 

Person A puts in X effort -> Rewarded prize Z

Person B puts in <X effort -> Rewarded prize Z

 

I can see that point on the ring example. Except the ring turns out to be made from a different stock (IE: You still can't RE Set Bonus or create the cool Armor Shells).

 

What if person B puts in "Y" effort (Money from another "X" effort) and is rewarded prize Z still? You still come to the same conclusion, but different paths. Much like our social model in the United States today. The more in game credits you have the better life is going to be for your character. (I know its a crappy comparison, but totally true).

 

PS: KorrigTS > I love that DOT Tracker Application! Wish BW would add that feature to the game.

Edited October 19, 2012 by dscount

[moonshoter]

Read what I wrote. They are giving the best campaign armorings for the slot. So I'll finally be able to get Skill Armoring 26s with the set bonuses.

 

 

 

So your argument is that this gear should be given as a reward for clearing top tier content...

 

 

 

...but clearing top tier content isn't about getting the gear. Then why in the world do you care about how others get their gear, if its actually about the experience of raiding?

 

 

 

People don't unsub because they get powerful gear. People do unsub when repeating old content ad nauseum, or going through stupid grinds for marginal benefits. Having full rank 26 gear without entering EC HM doesn't invalidate EC HM, it just makes doing it less of a chore.

 

 

 

EC HM was full cleared the week it was released iirc. A person could have been full campaign that week, if he was the tank of a guild that gears their tanks first. But surely thats not a problem. BTW, three weeks is silly hyperbole. Its taken months for the crafting markets to get where they are now. Its been how long since TFB HM was released? And, on Jedi Covenant, someone has finally learned one rank 27 armoring. That's just such an unbelievably fast process, I don't know how the raiding community can tolerate it.

 

 

 

20+ million credits isn't any where near instant gratification, especially in an economy where the typical player's wallet amounts to a few hundred thousand credits.

 

 

 

You got it first, congratulations. The people coming later always have an easier time. Strategies are provided online, encounters are decreased in difficulty, higher tiers of gear become available, and a host of other factors conspire to make it easier for later groups to join your exclusive club. I'll admit that I am curious though, how quickly you feel people should be able to gear up. Should a new 50 have to climb the gear ranks completely, from Tionese to Dread Guard, going through weeks of unlucky EV and KP drops, without skipping a step? What about when the next tier is released, is it okay to give them a leg up or is that cheapening the experience? I mean, you had to grind to the top, why shouldn't they?

 

 

 

I think you have a terrible misconception about whos buying the rank 27 mods off the GTN. You get an additional 8 stat points when going from rank 26 to 27. Not many people are willing to pay a million credits, let alone the 2.5 million he was charging, to do that. As far as I can tell, the only ones actually buying rank 27 mods are other crafters.

 

 

 

I don't believe that at all. If you weren't doing it to be sickly rich you'd be selling at cost instead of price gouging. If you wanted to limit the supply then you wouldn't even bother selling them and keep it in guild. The fact that you are selling, and selling for ridiculous mark ups, tells a better tail then what you're trying to weave here.

 

Every point Well made i wish i Could have worte it , so well thought out and very true ..

 

and yea i can confirm the 27 Do not sell on the GTN on my server they would much rather buy the 26s i don't try to sell the 27s on the GTN but do spam in trade what i can make for free yours mats and

 

any crits i get i gvie to giuldes . amd still make creds off the 26s they sell .. \\\ i dont tell them what i do with the crits and I Don't care if they learn a schamatic ... in fact i hope they do ))..

 

 

 

you hit it prefect they have there own cirle of freinds they will make them for nothing including mats and charge out the but to others and then if some one trys to get a head some how they complain becasue they think this or that ... and if there freinds learn the schamatic and they do they wont complain ..

 

what this all leads to is In time BW willdo something about it prolly and untill then we wait...

Edited October 19, 2012 by moonshoter

[KorrigTS]

PS: KorrigTS > I love that DOT Tracker Application! Wish BW would add that feature to the game.

 

Thanks

[Ansalem]

I'm very curious as to who is BiS already. Seeing as you can't get all the gear from TFB HM alone, and very few people have learned any armorings. The only Armoring 27 I've seen on the GTN on Jedi Covenant was a Force Wielder for 3.25 million, which didn't sell as it is an incremental upgrade from the 26. I imagine the only ones BiS are in guilds that are doing the raiding, which isn't at all what most people here are complaining about. And even then I don't think you'll see any BiS agents until EC NM is out, since the off hand gives a barrel instead of the armoring.

 

 

 

Drops increased, but as more schematics are learned that require twice the mats the prices will keep climbing back up. The same will happen for synthetic energy matrices as soon as armoring 27 schematics become known.

 

on prophecy of the five there are ridiculous amounts of people with all the armorings, mods, enh, barrels, hilts...there are many people already full BiS until Nightmare EC comes out. And synth energy matrix price is the exception since you don't really use those in mod/enh crafting. The prices for those are bottoming out only 60k on my server last time I checked. Molecular stab price though is going through the roof. This exploit has caused many problems with the economy overall on PotF.

P.S. I myself am in almost complete BiS but I did it the hard way 4/5 dread guard from raiding. Its meaningless though since any tom dick or harry can just buy mods and slap them into columi or rakata to be BiS and still have the set bonus.

[moonshoter]

on prophecy of the five there are ridiculous amounts of people with all the armorings, mods, enh, barrels, hilts...there are many people already full BiS until Nightmare EC comes out. And synth energy matrix price is the exception since you don't really use those in mod/enh crafting. The prices for those are bottoming out only 60k on my server last time I checked. Molecular stab price though is going through the roof. This exploit has caused many problems with the economy overall on PotF.

P.S. I myself am in almost complete BiS but I did it the hard way 4/5 dread guard from raiding. Its meaningless though since any tom dick or harry can just buy mods and slap them into columi or rakata to be BiS and still have the set bonus.

 

the Matrix are 30k on my server , Stab on other hand are any were from 160 to 200 k per on my server .))

[dscount]

any tom dick or harry can just buy mods and slap them into columi or rakata to be BiS and still have the set bonus.

 

You know, that brings up a good point. Maybe what we really need is a NEW Set bonus to be assigned to each progressive gear set instead?

 

Give us some EXTRA % Points to the newer armor set bonus. Moving generic (61 / 63) armor into Columi/Rakata piece shouldn't grant the same set bonus. Especially when Campaign and Dread Master slotted Armor provides the identical set bonus.

 

That would ENCOURAGE people to get into HM OP's to score the gear with the sweeter bonus set.

Edited October 19, 2012 by dscount

[Alec_Fortescue]

I just spent 20 million on the Resolve 27 Hilt schematic but I still believe that this feature should be removed from the game. Whatever you spent in r/e of the rare stuff you will get it back within a week at most. Its not hard at all. Problem are the fools who are doing it in order to flood the server with cheap top-tier items and undercutting raiders who earned it with sweat and blood. I got like 130 million credits and it's still growing. I r/e player-made items but i don't undercut and I am not being a jerk to the raiders. When I want their items for r/e I agree to fix the prices and I don't flood and I offer them a hefty sum for letting me r/e. I don't even have to to get new gear at this stage.

 

Fact that I made 50 mil in one week some time ago proves that this system is ridiculous.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Alec_Fortescue

[Leovinus]

so nice of bioware to respond to this a month late after the game economy has been destroyed and everyone was fully equipped in best in slot mods within the first week of the patch. GG bioware. Not deeming it an exploit because so many of your limited player base abused it eh? Too afraid to whip out that ban hammer on folks who cheat? And you wonder why people dont want to play anymore....pretty shameful bioware pretty darned shameful.

 

Really, not so much. I'm working with my team through TfB HM. I think a few of us may have splurged and gotten some 27s made, but the only thing I'll do in that regard is to have some enhancements made as I get my drops, because the enhancements in 90+% of my stock gear are complete garbage. Some of us actually do feel that it's worth more to earn stuff ourselves. And those of us who feel that way, have our own options to gear out in that way. Like me.