New to the game - pessimism all around!

[GalacticKegger]

the forums and other game websites are full of trolls from other games such gw2, wow, http://www.mmorpg.com that hate swtor and want to see it fail. just ignore them.

Sound advice. Maybe they'll play nice if no one takes the bait.

[tumpai]

and corporate EA needs to keep their hands off and stay away from swtor.

[devincor]

...! But at the same time you're doing that, you better make darn sure that at LAUNCH you have each and every feature that WoW has right now--even though it took WoW YEARS to build up that many features. "

.

 

This is becoming a pet peeve of mine.

 

You have every right to compare features of any game currently running now. That is fair.

 

If you think it is not, you saying that developers of new products (in any field really - MMO's, console games, cell phones, TV's, cars, etc.) can only be compared to the same product equivalent to initial release X years ago? (based on the SWTOR v. WoW arguement)

 

While you did not say that specificly i have read that statement many times in these forums as a defense. That means the Bioware developers have been in carbon freeze (learning nothing) for the past 8 years working on their game and missed out on all game developments (not just WoW-related) and innovations since WoW release.

 

I can't believe you really think that, do you? Or when you go shopping for a cell phone or car, do you accept one with less abilities or functionality than your current one?

 

Please note I am not talking about CONTENT. That does require time. But features and innovations are fair game.

[Trollokdamus]

...its a good solid star wars game...

You have no idea how much i wish this to be true.

A good, solid game in a Star Wars setting, Old Republic timeline? Yes, please! Too bad we don't have one.

[Trenter]

You have no idea how much i wish this to be true.

A good, solid game in a Star Wars setting, Old Republic timeline? Yes, please! Too bad we don't have one.

 

Uh... Yeah, we do.

[Tuscad]

Uh... Yeah, we do.

 

Yeah it is so solid that it has had around 4x the people currently playing leave it. I am going to have to disagree with you on this one.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Tuscad

[Bynt]

Current estimates are that WoW has sold 11 Billion copies, which is a combination of digital and box sales. This does not account for free to try accounts, so consumers didn't have to buy the game to discover they didn't like it which significantly make this comparison worse imo.

 

So with 11 Billion copies sold and currently 10 million (rounded) active subscribers, WoW has lost 91% of the customers that have tried the game. Factoring in free to try accounts would probably push the retention numbers under 1 percent. However, WoW is ranked as the 11th best game of the all time top 200 games ever made, All Games here people. So how is using this basis for comparison justifying anything???

 

So with SWTOR having sold 1.7 million and retained just under 1 million last time I saw numbers released a few months ago, I would say that going with this method of comparison makes SWTOR appear to be a raging success. Even if you go with a guess-timated current number like 500K, SWTOR is a MONSTER of a SUCCESS and WOW IS TOTAL FAIL.

 

EPIC.

 

Figures Lie and Liars Figure. Using vague and obfusicating math to justify an argument is silly.

 

SWTOR is a phenomenal game and I"m loving, just had to have a laugh over the pages of people arguing the game is a failure but the method they are utilizing to prove this is the true FAILURE here.

[Rafael_Peres]

Not me, of course. Just around me, it feels.

 

I was watching this game pre-launch a while back under the forum username Kanith, but I noticed a lot of stuff got changed including what seems to be a dump of forum users. Interesting.

 

Anyway, I took a stroll on the 15-level trial and enjoyed myself so much I bought the game for the standard $15 and have been strutting my stuff around the Jung Ma PvP-RP server. While activity hasn't been exploding (coming from a guy who played WoW for some five years before quitting in 2009) I have enjoyed the small bit of interaction between characters on the server. There is one thing I've noticed, though:

 

Everyone seems so pessimistic. Perhaps I missed out on the real fun-time bash that was early Old Republic, but on the whole I am indeed having fun playing the game. There is enough life to not feel like the worlds are completely empty, but also not overcrowded so I don't feel "small". I'm just curious where all the dire vibes are coming from. Personally I'd like to cruise through the story, sidequests, and join a nice RP guild and settle down. What's with all the naysayers?

Pessimism is around since beta. Get used to just ignore the drama queens and the mmos specialists that pop up around the forums.

Welcome to the game, enjoy it.

[SpazCats]

Current estimates are that WoW has sold 11 Billion copies, which is a combination of digital and box sales. This does not account for free to try accounts, so consumers didn't have to buy the game to discover they didn't like it which significantly make this comparison worse imo.

 

So with 11 Billion copies sold and currently 10 million (rounded) active subscribers, WoW has lost 91% of the customers that have tried the game. Factoring in free to try accounts would probably push the retention numbers under 1 percent. However, WoW is ranked as the 11th best game of the all time top 200 games ever made, All Games here people. So how is using this basis for comparison justifying anything???

 

So with SWTOR having sold 1.7 million and retained just under 1 million last time I saw numbers released a few months ago, I would say that going with this method of comparison makes SWTOR appear to be a raging success. Even if you go with a guess-timated current number like 500K, SWTOR is a MONSTER of a SUCCESS and WOW IS TOTAL FAIL.

 

EPIC.

 

Figures Lie and Liars Figure. Using vague and obfusicating math to justify an argument is silly.

 

SWTOR is a phenomenal game and I"m loving, just had to have a laugh over the pages of people arguing the game is a failure but the method they are utilizing to prove this is the true FAILURE here.

 

11 BILLION copies sold? Really? A quick Google search and I find this;

 

"Not only has World of Warcraft sold over 15 million copies (including expansions), but it has had a base of around 11 million paying subscribers for more than half a decade. This alone brings in over $1.5 billion per year. Overall, World of Warcraft is estimated to have generated over $10 billion in revenue to date, making it the highest grossing video game ever. "

 

From http://digitalbattle.com/2012/02/21/top-10-highest-grossing-video-games-ever/ dated Feb 21, 2012.

 

So I think you mean 11 billion in revenue, not copies sold, which puts your retention rate figures way out to lunch.

[Tuscad]

11 BILLION copies sold? Really? A quick Google search and I find this;

 

"Not only has World of Warcraft sold over 15 million copies (including expansions), but it has had a base of around 11 million paying subscribers for more than half a decade. This alone brings in over $1.5 billion per year. Overall, World of Warcraft is estimated to have generated over $10 billion in revenue to date, making it the highest grossing video game ever. "

 

From http://digitalbattle.com/2012/02/21/top-10-highest-grossing-video-games-ever/ dated Feb 21, 2012.

 

So I think you mean 11 billion in revenue, not copies sold, which puts your retention rate figures way out to lunch.

 

Even if it was 11 Billion as he suggested I would disagree with WOW being a failure just because it lost 90%+ of its subs, 10 million subs is still 10 million subs that is a butt load of money and it is currently the biggest MMO (at least as far as I know)

[Larity]

(or forced to leave in the case of Star Wars Galaxy) to play this.

 

.

 

No one forced anyone to play this. Galaxies time was up and it wasn't renewed. Galaxies was long dead near the end and didn't have enough subs to keep even the devs hired.

 

And I thought people would stop saying this after that game died.

[SpazCats]

Even if it was 11 Billion as he suggested I would disagree with WOW being a failure just because it lost 90%+ of its subs, 10 million subs is still 10 million subs that is a butt load of money and it is currently the biggest MMO (at least as far as I know)

 

Agreed, but I just had to point out such an obvious error, especially with the way the poster had to throw around words such as EPIC and FAIL, and "Using vague and obfusicating math to justify an argument is silly", when his own numbers were so out to lunch.

[Tuscad]

Agreed, but I just had to point out such an obvious error, especially with the way the poster had to throw around words such as EPIC and FAIL, and "Using vague and obfusicating math to justify an argument is silly", when his own numbers were so out to lunch.

 

If 10 million subs and billions of dollars is a failure then how do I become a failure?

Edited September 15, 2012 by Tuscad

[SpazCats]

If 10 million subs and billions of dollars is a failure then how do I become a failure?

 

rofl!! A failure is the life for me then!

[ScarletBlaze]

Not me, of course. Just around me, it feels.

 

I was watching this game pre-launch a while back under the forum username Kanith, but I noticed a lot of stuff got changed including what seems to be a dump of forum users. Interesting.

 

Anyway, I took a stroll on the 15-level trial and enjoyed myself so much I bought the game for the standard $15 and have been strutting my stuff around the Jung Ma PvP-RP server. While activity hasn't been exploding (coming from a guy who played WoW for some five years before quitting in 2009) I have enjoyed the small bit of interaction between characters on the server. There is one thing I've noticed, though:

 

Everyone seems so pessimistic. Perhaps I missed out on the real fun-time bash that was early Old Republic, but on the whole I am indeed having fun playing the game. There is enough life to not feel like the worlds are completely empty, but also not overcrowded so I don't feel "small". I'm just curious where all the dire vibes are coming from. Personally I'd like to cruise through the story, sidequests, and join a nice RP guild and settle down. What's with all the naysayers?

 

Best advise ignore the naysayers in the forums and just enjoy the game. My guild and I are still enjoying the game. Find a good group and play with them.

 

Good luck and have fun.

[Goretzu]

You know, Goretzu, if you want to see TOR growing, then why not start with what you can do about it and stop highlighting how the game has/is losing players? Who knows, maybe we'd gain a few subs from people who otherwise would've been scared off by the doomsaying...

 

 

Sticking ones head in the sand doesn't help, people aren't daft. Even the people that use to claim everything about SWTOR was perfect have mostly now quit.

 

The only solution is to fix the game up, make it better.

 

 

 

 

The vast majority of people that quit, quit without ever posting on or even reading the forums, but it is the ONLY place you might get the Devs to realise what they are doing WRONG.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Goretzu

[Goretzu]

Current estimates are that WoW has sold 11 Billion copies, which is a combination of digital and box sales. This does not account for free to try accounts, so consumers didn't have to buy the game to discover they didn't like it which significantly make this comparison worse imo.

 

So with 11 Billion copies sold and currently 10 million (rounded) active subscribers, WoW has lost 91% of the customers that have tried the game. Factoring in free to try accounts would probably push the retention numbers under 1 percent. However, WoW is ranked as the 11th best game of the all time top 200 games ever made, All Games here people. So how is using this basis for comparison justifying anything???

 

So with SWTOR having sold 1.7 million and retained just under 1 million last time I saw numbers released a few months ago, I would say that going with this method of comparison makes SWTOR appear to be a raging success. Even if you go with a guess-timated current number like 500K, SWTOR is a MONSTER of a SUCCESS and WOW IS TOTAL FAIL.

 

EPIC.

 

Figures Lie and Liars Figure. Using vague and obfusicating math to justify an argument is silly.

 

SWTOR is a phenomenal game and I"m loving, just had to have a laugh over the pages of people arguing the game is a failure but the method they are utilizing to prove this is the true FAILURE here.

 

 

Er.... it's about 11 million copies sold, not 11 billion.

 

(SWTOR is ~2.4million sold)

Edited September 15, 2012 by Goretzu

[aeterno]

11 BILLION copies sold? Really? A quick Google search and I find this;

 

"Not only has World of Warcraft sold over 15 million copies (including expansions), but it has had a base of around 11 million paying subscribers for more than half a decade. This alone brings in over $1.5 billion per year. Overall, World of Warcraft is estimated to have generated over $10 billion in revenue to date, making it the highest grossing video game ever. "

 

From http://digitalbattle.com/2012/02/21/top-10-highest-grossing-video-games-ever/ dated Feb 21, 2012.

 

So I think you mean 11 billion in revenue, not copies sold, which puts your retention rate figures way out to lunch.

 

You needed a quick google search to realise he's wrong when there's only 7billion people on this planet lol?

[MOPSFounder]

I haven't really found this to be the case. SWTOR is very identical to many mainstream MMO's actually.

 

What really bothers me (and seems to bother many others), is the extremely slow rate that Bioware puts out content and fixes bugs. To make matters worse, it also seems like Bioware and EA have really stopped caring about us and the game.

 

But there is still lots of fun to be had for someone starting out. The class storylines are great!

 

Just keep playing as long as you're happy.

 

F2P may breath some new life into the game as well. Time will tell.

Agreed.

 

If you like the game and will love it for a long time, then go ahead. Ignore those who "nay-say" and dislike the game and/or what EAWare is doing about SWTOR's issues.

 

The thing is, however, this game has a lot of problems like bugs that still haven't been fixed yet. My guild and I were raiding SM KP yesterday, and during the 2nd try with the first boss he ended up resetting around 30%. We were so pissed. The 3rd time we ended up killing him but that time we used the 3rd try around could have been used progressing through the Operation.

 

I could go on and on about how I dislike some of the PvE, PvP and Story aspects of this game, but it's not worth it.

[Tuscad]

You needed a quick google search to realise he's wrong when there's only 7billion people on this planet lol?

 

Never know with all of them undocumented births

[Kubernetic]

Agreed.

 

If you like the game and will love it for a long time, then go ahead. Ignore those who "nay-say" and dislike the game and/or what EAWare is doing about SWTOR's issues.

 

The thing is, however, this game has a lot of problems like bugs that still haven't been fixed yet. My guild and I were raiding SM KP yesterday, and during the 2nd try with the first boss he ended up resetting around 30%. We were so pissed. The 3rd time we ended up killing him but that time we used the 3rd try around could have been used progressing through the Operation.

 

I could go on and on about how I dislike some of the PvE, PvP and Story aspects of this game, but it's not worth it.

 

Good lord. I've seen this happen to us raiding and trying to take down Bonecrusher a few times. It's also happened to us on Gharj running EV. We just said "***?" and did it over again. If this is your biggest problem, you ought to consider yourself lucky and count your stars.

 

By the way, sometimes the boss resets because you tried to cheat your way through it, like trying to knock the added cats off the platform (in the case of Bonecrusher) instead of killing them or just tanking them until the end of the boss fight.

 

In KP, this can also happen toward the end right before you face Karagga if you throw any of those mobs out front off the side of the platform.

 

I had no idea THIS was the kind of bug people were talking about. LOL. So what? Do it over again and kill the boss. I realize it might be frustrating your first time through, or your second, but by the time you've run these a few times, trust me, it's just a "okay let's do it again" issue and you move on.

 

Game-breaking bugs I understand. This is not a game-breaking bug. And I guarantee this kind of stuff is happening in other games as well, or else they just aren't complicated enough to even have any such issues. And I'd definitely call "mind-numbingly boring" a game-breaking bug...

[MOPSFounder]

Good lord. I've seen this happen to us raiding and trying to take down Bonecrusher a few times. It's also happened to us on Gharj running EV. We just said "***?" and did it over again. If this is your biggest problem, you ought to consider yourself lucky and count your stars.

 

By the way, sometimes the boss resets because you tried to cheat your way through it, like trying to knock the added cats off the platform (in the case of Bonecrusher) instead of killing them or just tanking them until the end of the boss fight.

 

In KP, this can also happen toward the end right before you face Karagga if you throw any of those mobs out front off the side of the platform.

 

I had no idea THIS was the kind of bug people were talking about. LOL. So what? Do it over again and kill the boss. I realize it might be frustrating your first time through, or your second, but by the time you've run these a few times, trust me, it's just a "okay let's do it again" issue and you move on.

 

Game-breaking bugs I understand. This is not a game-breaking bug. And I guarantee this kind of stuff is happening in other games as well, or else they just aren't complicated enough to even have any such issues. And I'd definitely call "mind-numbingly boring" a game-breaking bug...

I've heard there were more than this type of bug in Operations. Trust me, but even during pre-1.1 Operations were buggier. EAWare has managed to fix some of the excruciating bugs in this game, but there's more of them that should have been worked on long ago.

 

Many newer bugs could have also been avoided by utilizing the PTS, but it's all EAWare's fault for not taking advantage of a community that would really help them test patches before they went live and broke something. Remember the Explosive Content fiasco? Yeah. That could have been preventable even though it was fixed fairly quickly. That was sorta a "game-breaking bug" because many raiders at the time were trying to complete EC.

 

But you have to understand many raid teams don't like going through this and it's frustrating.

 

It's just disappointing how EAWare has even let this game become a sort of some bugfest—which has made some players unsub I believe.

Edited September 15, 2012 by MOPSFounder

[Kubernetic]

This is becoming a pet peeve of mine.

 

You have every right to compare features of any game currently running now. That is fair.

 

If you think it is not, you saying that developers of new products (in any field really - MMO's, console games, cell phones, TV's, cars, etc.) can only be compared to the same product equivalent to initial release X years ago? (based on the SWTOR v. WoW arguement)

 

While you did not say that specificly i have read that statement many times in these forums as a defense. That means the Bioware developers have been in carbon freeze (learning nothing) for the past 8 years working on their game and missed out on all game developments (not just WoW-related) and innovations since WoW release.

 

I can't believe you really think that, do you? Or when you go shopping for a cell phone or car, do you accept one with less abilities or functionality than your current one?

 

Please note I am not talking about CONTENT. That does require time. But features and innovations are fair game.

 

No. It means when you're creating a game and pushing the envelope on a number of areas, like Legacy, like an incredible amount of story content, cinematic additions, and so forth, it means that a developing game in an incubation mode is only going to have so much cash to throw around while it creates the game.

 

So you can wind up with cookie-cutter games that all look and feel alike, but have all of the same features that all the other games have after having been out and being developed over 8 years' time, or you can have new games with a fresh perspective and a fresh take, that might be missing a few of those other elements while they get the core new game out the door.

 

Spending another 3-6 or 6-12 months developing this game just so that it had all of these same features that other games that have been out for 10 years have was not an option. When you're in charge of an operation like the creation of this game, your budget is your budget, and you're only going to get to expand that maybe ONCE if you're VERY LUCKY. Otherwise, you either launch when you have the core game complete, or you fail and you fold and nothing gets launched at all and the assets get sold off to another company, as with happened with Star Trek Online and its prior developer.

 

In addition, there is a game development strategy that exists that suggests that trying to develop all of these little features for launch is a fool's errand, because you have no idea what the end-game population is going to be like without actually LAUNCHING the game, and going into PRODUCTION MODE, and THEN seeing what the users want. You could easily spend months of development time coming up with things that no one cares about, while all the while you could have launched the game, got the actual players in, found out what they want, then spend a few months of focused creation time adding those things in.

 

How many people were begging for a Group Finder tool that then left the game once it was in place? How much development time was wasted trying to get that into the game rather than something else? You can go on with the woulda-coulda-shoulda hypotheses all day long, but in the end, until YOU have had to make the design choices and YOU have had to set up the budget and the development staff and allocate resources to what you can ACCOMPLISH, rather than what you just WANT, then you're guessing, and back-seat driving.

 

And yes, sometimes you DO accept less features for new technology than you had before. I used to have table-top phone models that had no battery life problems, and didn't drop calls. They also didn't irradiate my head when I tried to use them. But I accepted the fact that in order to have a phone that is mobile and can travel with me, I had to accept the faults of low battery life, the possibility that it drops calls on occasion, and that it puts out radiation that far exceeds the phones we used to use, so much so that I rarely use the thing, even though i'm paying as much for it as I used to for the service for that table-top model.

 

With SWTOR, I accepted the lack of quality of life features in order to get a fun game that was worth playing, was worth every dollar I was spending to play it, and far exceeded the playability and enjoyability of the other games I had the option to play, and most importantly, centered around story and lore content that I was thoroughly interested in... Star Wars.

[Goretzu]

No. It means when you're creating a game and pushing the envelope on a number of areas, like Legacy, like an incredible amount of story content, cinematic additions, and so forth, it means that a developing game in an incubation mode is only going to have so much cash to throw around while it creates the game.

 

So you can wind up with cookie-cutter games that all look and feel alike, but have all of the same features that all the other games have after having been out and being developed over 8 years' time, or you can have new games with a fresh perspective and a fresh take, that might be missing a few of those other elements while they get the core new game out the door.

 

Spending another 3-6 or 6-12 months developing this game just so that it had all of these same features that other games that have been out for 10 years have was not an option. When you're in charge of an operation like the creation of this game, your budget is your budget, and you're only going to get to expand that maybe ONCE if you're VERY LUCKY. Otherwise, you either launch when you have the core game complete, or you fail and you fold and nothing gets launched at all and the assets get sold off to another company, as with happened with Star Trek Online and its prior developer.

 

In addition, there is a game development strategy that exists that suggests that trying to develop all of these little features for launch is a fool's errand, because you have no idea what the end-game population is going to be like without actually LAUNCHING the game, and going into PRODUCTION MODE, and THEN seeing what the users want. You could easily spend months of development time coming up with things that no one cares about, while all the while you could have launched the game, got the actual players in, found out what they want, then spend a few months of focused creation time adding those things in.

 

How many people were begging for a Group Finder tool that then left the game once it was in place? How much development time was wasted trying to get that into the game rather than something else? You can go on with the woulda-coulda-shoulda hypotheses all day long, but in the end, until YOU have had to make the design choices and YOU have had to set up the budget and the development staff and allocate resources to what you can ACCOMPLISH, rather than what you just WANT, then you're guessing, and back-seat driving.

 

And yes, sometimes you DO accept less features for new technology than you had before. I used to have table-top phone models that had no battery life problems, and didn't drop calls. They also didn't irradiate my head when I tried to use them. But I accepted the fact that in order to have a phone that is mobile and can travel with me, I had to accept the faults of low battery life, the possibility that it drops calls on occasion, and that it puts out radiation that far exceeds the phones we used to use, so much so that I rarely use the thing, even though i'm paying as much for it as I used to for the service for that table-top model.

 

With SWTOR, I accepted the lack of quality of life features in order to get a fun game that was worth playing, was worth every dollar I was spending to play it, and far exceeded the playability and enjoyability of the other games I had the option to play, and most importantly, centered around story and lore content that I was thoroughly interested in... Star Wars.

 

 

The thing is when WoW was launched (just using WoW as an example) it was basically EQ1-lite (in playstyle)........... however it wasn't EQ1-Vanilla-lite, but rather it included most (if not all) of the things EQ1 had innovated and included from 1999 to 2004.

 

WoW didn't try to match EQ1-Vanilla, it tried to match EQ1 with 5 years of development, innovation and 4 or 5 expansions by that point.

 

If WoW had just tried to match EQ1 Vanilla, it may well have bombed.

[SaintAvalon]

Not me, of course. Just around me, it feels.

 

I was watching this game pre-launch a while back under the forum username Kanith, but I noticed a lot of stuff got changed including what seems to be a dump of forum users. Interesting.

 

Anyway, I took a stroll on the 15-level trial and enjoyed myself so much I bought the game for the standard $15 and have been strutting my stuff around the Jung Ma PvP-RP server. While activity hasn't been exploding (coming from a guy who played WoW for some five years before quitting in 2009) I have enjoyed the small bit of interaction between characters on the server. There is one thing I've noticed, though:

 

Everyone seems so pessimistic. Perhaps I missed out on the real fun-time bash that was early Old Republic, but on the whole I am indeed having fun playing the game. There is enough life to not feel like the worlds are completely empty, but also not overcrowded so I don't feel "small". I'm just curious where all the dire vibes are coming from. Personally I'd like to cruise through the story, sidequests, and join a nice RP guild and settle down. What's with all the naysayers?

 

You'll have fun till you hit cap, and then you will wonder where all the content is, and you will start to notice how little this dev team puts into the game compared to other mmo's... I'm not talking wow, just look at any other mmo, this dev team just doesn't get it.

 

One more ops release then i'll probs end up dropping the game, content takes too long, not great content, bugs don't get fixed, god the list goes on.

 

Trust me hit 50 and you'll see why some of us are so down on the game.