ATTN Developers: 1.4 Vanguard changes, Storm as a base ability

[Kitru]

Giving VGs a gap closer: yes.

Making Storm a baseline ability: no because it's too similar to Force Leap. Make it different.

 

While I'm still of the "baseline Storm" camp, I've amended my solution to include another option: make Hold the Line baseline. Now, this doesn't mean that I want it made baseline in its current form; that would take away the only thing about Tactics that really makes it useful. Instead, make a tweaked version of Hold the Line baseline: increase the movement speed increase to 50-75%, remove the movement/physics immunity completely, and increase the recharge from 30 seconds to 45-60 seconds. The current Hold the Line talent could then be replaced with one that reduces the CD back to its current 30 second CD and adds the movement/physics immunity to it once again. This would fulfill your "gots-ta-be-different!" requirement without altering the overall gameplay of VGs too much: Hold the Line would actually become a somewhat effective gap closer, tank VGs would see almost no difference (though it would give them the ability to cover distances a bit better, similar to Force Speed and/or Guardian Leap providing additional mobility utility), and everyone goes home happy.

 

Keep in mind, I'm making a case for this in the interest of furthering the discussion. I still believe that Storm as baseline is the better option. This is simply something else to think about.

[DacRycar]

...Keep in mind, I'm making a case for this in the interest of furthering the discussion. I still believe that Storm as baseline is the better option. This is simply something else to think about.

 

Essentially making it a sprint. I've heard this idea pop up around the forums. While I'm not against it (its a sound idea) I feel like it needs some zest. I also feel the cooldown should be 30 seconds or below. Hell, Shadows and Assassins are going to be able to spec into 20 second CD sprints, for kriff sake.

Edited September 19, 2012 by DacRycar

[Kitru]

Essentially making it a sprint. I've heard this idea pop up around the forums. While I'm not against it (its a sound idea) I feel like it needs some zest. I also feel the cooldown should be 30 seconds or below. Hell, Shadows and Assassins are going to be able to spec into 20 second CD sprints, for kriff sake.

 

I think the logic behind any "sprint" provided to a mix-ranged class (Scoundrels and VGs, pretty much) is that, because the classes can operate to a reasonable effect outside of their optimal range, their gap closing doesn't necessarily need to be better. This is the only real reason I can come up with why Scoundrels would get a gap closer that is so marginally effective compared to Leap and Speed, which is why I came up with something along the same line for VGs. My guess is that the developers felt that Consulars needed a lower CD Force Speed because Sages, as a full ranged class, and Shadows, as a full melee class, need to be able to engage/disengage more often.

 

As to the "zest", there isn't really much more you can besides what's been done: the only real gap closing mechanisms are pulling a target (which isn't reliable thanks to other mechanics), increasing movement speed, and instantaneous movement. If you've got any suggestions, I'm open to it, but, honestly, I think that simplicity is where it's at.

[CJNJ]

How about a new skill that makes ion pulse 30 meters for 3-4.5 seconds? That would be creative eh?

[Kitru]

How about a new skill that makes ion pulse 30 meters for 3-4.5 seconds? That would be creative eh?

 

I could see something like this, though rather than providing a short duration like that, I think it would make more sense to have it provide 3 charges that increase the range on Ion Pulse to 30 yds. Put a 10 sec duration on the charges to prevent them from being abused too heavily.

 

Another idea/option, to encourage the melee-tude of the class and to prevent opening up combat from range, would be to make it a passive charge generation ability (like Centering) that provides one charge, stacked up to 3, with a 12 second duration, whenever you use Stockstrike (or potentially another ability of the developer's choice).

 

Neither really acts as a gap closer, but, instead, operate as a preclusion to *needing* a gap closer by allowing VGs to operate at less diminished capacity at long range for short periods after spending an extended period in their intended range (using Stockstrike to generate the stacks would allow for a roughly 30 second cycle before getting back up to full stacks; presumably any buff like this would have a similar CD as would be appropriate for a gap closer and abilities designed to equate to them).

[KeyboardNinja]

Essentially making it a sprint. I've heard this idea pop up around the forums. While I'm not against it (its a sound idea) I feel like it needs some zest. I also feel the cooldown should be 30 seconds or below. Hell, Shadows and Assassins are going to be able to spec into 20 second CD sprints, for kriff sake.

 

Technically, Shadows and Assassins *currently* spec into a 20 second CD on sprint. All consulars get it as a base CD in 1.4, with Infiltration/Deception shadows/assassins having a talent that reduces it to 15 seconds. Honestly though, sprint is about to become *very* underwhelming as a PvP gap-closer since it will no longer break roots and snares. This is a fairly serious nerf that I haven't heard anyone talk about. Most notably, it will make life very very difficult for shadows/assassins who are attempting to take down a sniper/gunslinger or sages/sorcs attempting to kite any melee class.

 

That aside… It occurred to me that BioWare *really* likes the notion of hard counters. They set up this situation in their class balance where sentinels hard-counter healers (especially sages), gunslingers hard-counter sentinels, and shadows hard-counter gunslingers. This doesn't mean that these counters cannot be overcome (I've beaten marauders on my commando healer, and I've died to gunslingers on my shadow), but the balance is set up such that it is very very difficult. I wonder if the intention is to give vanguards/powertechs a *severe* weakness in the area of mobility and control, giving them a couple of hard counters (sages, who have both a snare and a sprint, are the first thing that comes to mind).

 

Without a gap closer, vanguards/powertechs are basically *entirely* dependent on making their burst hit as hard as possible for the brief moments when they might be in range. As DacRycar has mentioned to me off-forums, the damage is all that vanguards have. Harpoon is a long CD and affected by resolve, as is Cryo Grenade. The defensive cooldowns are meh, and the gap closer is non-existent. The only tool vanguards have to win a fair fight is the ability to utterly demolish a single target if that target obligingly remains in melee range. It's like the opposite of a Kinetic Shadow, which has mediocre damage, but outstanding tools for positioning, movement and control. This may be how BioWare intends the class balance to work. Disappointing if true.

 

Given the non-transferability of characters to the PTS, and BioWare's extremely shoddy track record w.r.t. balance suggestions from the forums (see also: sage/sorc changes in 1.2), I'm pretty certain that 1.4 will roll around without giving vanguards any sort of gap closer.

Edited September 20, 2012 by KeyboardNinja

[Jordalx]

BioWare,

Across many posts, Vanguards and Powertechs alike are displeased with the changes to their class.

50 Vanguard, The Ebon Hawk server

 

Don't even. This is nothing compared to Sorc now.

[Kitru]

Honestly though, sprint is about to become *very* underwhelming as a PvP gap-closer since it will no longer break roots and snares.

 

The root/snare break for Force Speed is, and always has been, tied to Mind Over Matter, not Elusiveness. The developers aren't changing Mind Over Matter at all, so the root/snare breaking will still be there for the only spec that ever had it (tanks).

[KeyboardNinja]

The root/snare break for Force Speed is, and always has been, tied to Mind Over Matter, not Elusiveness. The developers aren't changing Mind Over Matter at all, so the root/snare breaking will still be there for the only spec that ever had it (tanks).

 

Well, you know, if I bothered to read the talent trees, I might be less concerned about these things! Thanks for the correction.

[Spatology]

30m sticky grenade, 10m incin round, next gcd you are in melee.

 

I think you guys got a little carried away with the walls of text. You missed this important and insightful post!

[yioyo]

So bottom line take all my hopes and dreams and everything that made me stand out as a special vanguard tank and utterly crush it in my face huh? really we have 2 CD that i use together because a 15 or 10% heal on health over 10-15 seconds isn't the best i like the 25% for 12 but thats all the cool downs now you wanna take away my best coolest ability that makes sages rage!?!?!?! This is the Tanks only ability that means anything you want me to feel amazing cause of energy Blast or i get a 45 sec cool down harpoon affected by resolve or a 15 sec cooldown leap that only tanks get and i get 30% movement speed when speced into it. how bout we give tanks another CD and have a skill in the 2nd lv of tactics that when you engage in combat for the first time 3 sec 75% boost to speed. What do you guys think?

[DenitharPurloin]

As a tanking PvE vanguard, I certainly wouldn't protest to a "stun immunity" added to storm, to actually replace Storm box in the shield tree.

 

Super annoying to Storm a large group and be stunned immediately after jumping in.

[SajPl]

I seriously fail to understand why people say "vanguards cant have pull and leap". I mean Sentinels have leap+party wide speed buff or party wide damage buff. Guardians can leap, friendly leap, push, aoe slow on top of that they can do 5k aoe sweeps/smashes while guarding healers (nerf to carolina parakeet but guardians can be tanks/dps in one). It's not like vanguard has a ton of utility and having both a pull and a leap would only make us more competitive. Leap in the tank tree can simply be changed for another defensive cooldown (vanguards are the only tank class with one shield on a super long cd). Edited September 24, 2012 by SajPl

[Captain_Lurker]

Well seeing the patch notes for 1.4 it appears that only Incendiary Rounds and Assault Plastique were brought to a 10m range (from their original 30m range). I currently play an Assault (DPS) Vanguard and can see where this will really hurt Assault. I can in some ways understand the change, Vanguards (and Powertechs) are meant to be close combat fighters and both abilities at 30m (and Hammer Shot, Full Auto, Explosive Rounds, ect) made them very capable to stay beyond 10m. The problem is now every melee class and talent tree has a "gap closer" except Assault (cant count Harpoon as it is one target, does not affect some NPCS and PCs in PvP, and has a very high cooldown). Even Shield Specialist has Storm (talent) and Tactics has Battlefield Training (talent).

 

Before Assault would lack an "gap closer" but made up for it with 2 talents that worked beyond 10m. If this change remains permanent then Assault needs a new talent (and for more than one reason - they currently also lack a tier 5 special ability unlike the other trees). Why not give Assault a new tier 5 talent that acts as a "gap closer"? Either a different style of Storm or a sprint type ability. They can either drop Rain of Fire to a 2 point talent or Assault Trooper to 1 point and link them to the new talent (or to each other; ie make Assault Trooper 1 point but you must have three ranks of Rain of Fire). At the current design it makes Assault tree rather lackluster (though it might make it less the "Iwinbutton" tree or "favor of the month").

[moonshiner]

These Changes are BS... I can't even start a rotation without pulling aggro cause EVERY npc pulls at 10m. Harpoon is useless to me in ops. We NEED a gap closer. One that does not increase threat. Or simply put it back the way it was. I really could give two craps about how it affected PvP play because PvP play is BROKEN and not fun. Don't mess with my PVE experience because people complain about PVP.

[Haggardbr]

Thanks the Lord there are people int his gaming world that agree with me like the two ones above me!

 

And as the friend above said...

 

BIOWARE, DON'T MESS WITH OUR PvE EXPERIENCE BECAUSE OF PvP CRY BABIES!

 

I guess that we should make our voices to be heard just as the cry babies did!

[Trews]

I totally support the idea of baseline Storm and putting harpoon in the tanking tree.

 

Good idea OP.

[Keypek]

I totally support the idea of baseline Storm and putting harpoon in the tanking tree.

 

Good idea OP.

 

It made to much sense I guess. Fail BW.

[Joesixxpack]

I agree on storm as a baseline ability, and agree also with the others on tweaking skills around to comp (sorry not wall of texting for further details )

 

Personally I hybrid into the shield tree just to have storm, having found it that useful.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Joesixxpack

[ZillaElite]

It's a great idea. It's too good of an idea and makes perfect sense. That's why Bioware won't do it. Utterly disgusting how they have ruined this and other classes. Subs keep dropping and they still don't learn. I know of many people that are unsubbing including me...looks like Bioware will have more server consolidation to do in future. It's too bad, but par for the course with them. Edited September 28, 2012 by ZillaElite