Powertech in 1.4......Devs please read

[DacRycar]

I agree with the original post that Powertechs need a gap closer. I've been a proponent of this for a very long time, since 1.1, and believe if one is going to develop a "melee class," that melee class needs to have an effective means to entering into combat. Warriors have Force Charge, Assassins and Operatives have sprints and stealth.

 

In the current test build, the Powertech/Vanguard does not have any of these.

Edited September 11, 2012 by DacRycar

[oakamp]

That is not what I am questioning - I agree with the ranged nerfs -.

i don't agree with ranged nerf,

we don't chose pt dps as a melee,

now time to quit,

gw2 is much better.

[Karasuko]

I really don't get your tears.

 

-You have amazing single target dps.

-you have stunning aoe dps.

-You have burst out the backside.

-Heavy armour

-a decent amount of CD's

-Great dots that tick when out of melee range.

-attacks are not restricted to melee range but are limited to 10m.

 

Your only weakness is no gap closer. If they fill that then you are the perfect class, That's balance?

[Macroecon]

You have a gap closer. It's just that it is on a 45 sec CD which is about 3x that of other melee classes. To compensate for that you have Rapid Shots. Is that enough compensation? Mmmmm, maybe. Maybe not....

 

It seems that PT/Vanguard now has a reduced role. It used to be a good all around dps machine. Good to use against healers, enemy melee or ranged dps and tanks as well. Now things will be different. The PT Pyro now looks like it should be used primarily against melee dps and non-Assassin tanks. Certainly if you can get multiple teammates vs. an enemy, the PT Pyro can dog pile on. But ideally you are attacking enemy melee with your remaining 30m attacks and letting them come to you. At which point you can unleash your main attacks. And your high crit rating still makes you very well suited to attacking shield using targets, although the Force Shroud of the Assassin can shut you down.

 

But make no mistake. You got nerfed. The people who think that nothing much has changed are going to be in for a shock.

[DarkSaberMaster]

I really don't get your tears.

 

-You have amazing single target dps.

-you have stunning aoe dps. (Oh really? Death from Above is stunning AOE? Something the enemy easily avoids? Lol. Okay)

-You have burst out the backside.

-Heavy armour (Lol. Are you for real?)

-a decent amount of CD's (Now I know you know nothing about Pyro PT's)

-Great dots that tick when out of melee range.

-attacks are not restricted to melee range but are limited to 10m. (Ummm. Then why are now called a range class?)

 

Your only weakness is no gap closer. If they fill that then you are the perfect class, That's balance?

 

If you're happy that an AC got nerfed that you have no clue how to fight, then say so. But don't come on here and say that we are just fine when you know next to nothing about the class.

[nDjiin]

If you're happy that an AC got nerfed that you have no clue how to fight, then say so. But don't come on here and say that we are just fine when you know next to nothing about the class.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself (did he even read my original post?)

[Karasuko]

If you're happy that an AC got nerfed that you have no clue how to fight, then say so. But don't come on here and say that we are just fine when you know next to nothing about the class.

 

I actually think it's nowhere near enough, how can a rakata geared (not optimsed) toon pull nearly 25% more than a fully optimised one? and then ahve the temerity to cry about having no gap closer? Heres a hint, if you are trashing other classes in operations without a gap closer at present you must be pretty damn close to being balanced.

 

You still have plenty of damage while out of meelee range.

Full auto.

Hammer shot + DOT.

Dots applied earlier.

HiB.

 

Why do you need a charge again?

[Slicksteezin]

Yes. i said slight nerf and thats what it is. don't tell me i don't know the class, Powertech was my first char to 50. and its a nerf damn well needed, ill even admit that. so funny all of the PT's feeling pity for themselves now that you aren't as OP as you were. (Even though we really didn't get hit that hard).

 

Yet in 1.2 merc'/commandos get the nerfhammer up the as$ that makes them so unbelievabley underpowered in PvP, it ruins the class. 1.4 rolls around and they get what some may consider to be worse.

 

THEY are the ones that are entitled to complain, not you.

[Kothakk]

Yes. i said slight nerf and thats what it is. don't tell me i don't know the class, Powertech was my first char to 50. and its a nerf damn well needed, ill even admit that. so funny all of the PT's feeling pity for themselves now that you aren't as OP as you were. (Even though we really didn't get hit that hard).

 

Yet in 1.2 merc'/commandos get the nerfhammer up the as$ that makes them so unbelievabley underpowered in PvP, it ruins the class. 1.4 rolls around and they get what some may consider to be worse.

 

THEY are the ones that are entitled to complain, not you.

 

The 10 meter range on IM and TD and ED was well needed. Im not arguing that fact.

 

However the snare % reduction is what I fear in PvP will be a tad to much considering that a few other classes gets more speedbuffs. This is what makes AP more appealing for PvP overall due to HO.

 

I wonder how the 10m range will affect PvE damage. Im not sure the 7-3-31 spec is the most viable for PvE after 1.4 but that is a discussion for a different thread.

[mugen_dom]

We have AOE? What great AOE do we have? Flame thrower? Death from Above? UMMMMMM Missile blast? REALLY? Troll somewhere else.

[nDjiin]

I actually think it's nowhere near enough, how can a rakata geared (not optimsed) toon pull nearly 25% more than a fully optimised one? and then ahve the temerity to cry about having no gap closer? Heres a hint, if you are trashing other classes in operations without a gap closer at present you must be pretty damn close to being balanced.

 

You still have plenty of damage while out of meelee range.

Full auto.

Hammer shot + DOT.

Dots applied earlier.

HiB.

 

Why do you need a charge again?

 

Currently in operations a Pyrotech Powertech is about average when compared to other DPS classes. That is when we are able to use the pre nerf abilities to keep up our DPS (to about 60% of what we can do at melee range).

 

After the nerf we will be reduced to below 30% (what we get from our DoT and Rapid fire). So that is our DPS redcued to more than half every time we are more than 10m away from a target - which is a hell of a lot in some boss fights. In Pvp it will be all the time if your opponent has even half a clue how to fight.

 

So please understand that I am not trying to keep an OP class unchanged - I merely trying to make sure that a class isnt broken without at least doing my best to make sure the developers know what they are doing.

 

SWTOR has a lot of Poweretchs & Vanagurds, and I cannot see them continuing to play a class who's DPS is below what is needed to pass an enrage timer (this issue is made even more of a problem in the new content when in progression raids). At best they will change classes - which means we will once agian have less of a class mixture (which is not good for any game) or at worst decide that it is not worth playing SWTOR anymore and move on.

[DacRycar]

If you're happy that an AC got nerfed that you have no clue how to fight, then say so. But don't come on here and say that we are just fine when you know next to nothing about the class.

 

I chuckled at this post, too.

 

-You have amazing single target dps.

 

This is true, but so do other Advanced Classes.

 

-you have stunning aoe dps.

 

While Mortal Volley/Death From Above is by and large my favorite AoE in the game, its also on a 1-minute cooldown and cannot be spammed like Earthquake, Force Storm or even Orbital Bombardment (which, by the way, its on a 45 second cooldown and is the HARDEST HITTING AoE in the game).

 

-You have burst out the backside.

 

As do Shadows and Assassins in their respective spec.

 

-Heavy armour

 

People like to throw this around a lot. When facing against an Operative or a Marauder running in Juyo form, that armor means nothing.

 

-a decent amount of CD's

 

I liked how you put the qualifier "decent" in there. Its very vague and used to save yourself from the flames as people point out that we have very few cooldowns.

 

-Great dots that tick when out of melee range.

 

Name a DoT that doesn't continue to tick when the target leaves a certain range.

 

-attacks are not restricted to melee range but are limited to 10m.

 

You forgot about Stockstrike/Rocket Punch, not to mention our interrupt ability.

 

Your only weakness is no gap closer. If they fill that then you are the perfect class, That's balance?

 

Yes. Why? Because every other melee class has the ability to close gaps, whether it be through a leap, a sprint or stealth. This is MMO mechanics 101.

Edited September 12, 2012 by DacRycar

[CBRGhostRider]

Yes. Why? Because every other melee class has the ability to close gaps, whether it be through a leap, a sprint or stealth. This is MMO mechanics 101.

 

^^^^ x 10000

 

MMO mechanics 101 indeed. Really Bioware... what are you thinking? Or should I say, what are you smoking?

 

We aren't questioning the range nerf to abilities. We are questioning why we don't have gap closers like other melee classes, now that we are essentially a melee class. And no, one grapple on a 45 sec cd is not a gap closer. I LOL at any pyro that opens up with grapple.

[Karasuko]

^^^^ x 10000

 

MMO mechanics 101 indeed. Really Bioware... what are you thinking? Or should I say, what are you smoking?

 

We aren't questioning the range nerf to abilities. We are questioning why we don't have gap closers like other melee classes, now that we are essentially a melee class. .

 

You are a melee class with a plethora of ranged abilities to sustain some damage while out of range/gap closing.

The only melee that comes close to doing 30% of their damage while OOR is the golden child of the devs, the watchman sent/

Shadows do zero damage @11m if infil, more if balance.

Operatives can do maybe 10%, more if fly-by is off CD.

Non-Watchman specced sents/mara's have their throw.

Juggs have saber throw, dots (if specced)

 

so once again, your doing 30% of your damage while I do nada. Yes i have sprint/charge to get back into melee range but then im consigned to doing less dps and less damage overall when I get there with more set up.You don't need a gap closer.

 

and i really had to LOL at stealth being a gap closer in pve.

 

I really have to ask, If your topping the meters (or coming bloody close) without a charge, why do you need it?

[nDjiin]

You are a melee class with a plethora of ranged abilities to sustain some damage while out of range/gap closing.

The only melee that comes close to doing 30% of their damage while OOR is the golden child of the devs, the watchman sent/

Shadows do zero damage @11m if infil, more if balance.

Operatives can do maybe 10%, more if fly-by is off CD.

Non-Watchman specced sents/mara's have their throw.

Juggs have saber throw, dots (if specced)

 

so once again, your doing 30% of your damage while I do nada. Yes i have sprint/charge to get back into melee range but then im consigned to doing less dps and less damage overall when I get there with more set up.You don't need a gap closer.

 

and i really had to LOL at stealth being a gap closer in pve.

 

I really have to ask, If your topping the meters (or coming bloody close) without a charge, why do you need it?

 

OK let me break this down for you one more time - Currently Powertechs are able to stay with in the 5-10% tolerances for the difference between class DPS.

 

With the new update we will lose approx 50% of our ranged DPS - which will drop us below the said tolerances set out by the game devs / BW this year.

 

A gap closer will bring us back on target.

 

Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Edited September 13, 2012 by nDjiin

[mugen_dom]

because hes not a vanguard or PT, but a commando and not caring...but trolling us

[Xandole]

I run meters and upload raid data 5-6 times a week and will say straight out the box that all DPS classes are w/n 5% of each other right now. Skill has less to do with the tool and more to do with the abilities of the user.

 

Here is the thing, next time your in a HM/NiM OPS look to see how much of your dps are pyrotech's or assault VG's you might, and i strongly say MIGHT have one with you. Yeah we do have heavy sustainable dps lack of the same 25% agro dump in our rotation makes us a fracken liability to the raid. ALL and i mean EVERY single class minus the Vanguards and the Powertechs have either skills they can put points into or have a 25% agro dump on a cd that is put into a rotation to maximize DPS and help keep agro on the tanks where it belongs. Even while guarded we can pull agro off our tanks sometimes resulting in a wipe.

 

And in case you "oh you need the nerf" folks dont have the intelligence to do data collecting and/or will just sit on your rear and wait for someone to point out the obvious to you, here it goes....

 

ELEMENTAL and INTERNAL BASED DAMAGE!! there are only two classes that have any real mitigation against elemental based dmg, shadow and assassin tanks, everyone else just gets the full brunt of the elemental based dmg. and thats the ONLY reason we cause so much more dmg to other players. And for the same reasons as to why poisons and bleeds (internal dmg types) wreck your life so fast. So there you have it BW, make mit boosts for elemental and internal type dmg available and leave the pyro/VG skills alone.

 

Any class in the hands of a skilled player is lethal. I have played every single subclass type (VG, Guardian, Sage, GS, Mrdr, Merc, Sin and OP) to lvl 50 i play them all very well but i am absolutely lethal with my Assault VG and my Mrdr. I have never seen (and i have been around since beta) any one class that is OP. People tend to get one sided when it comes to saying a class is OP based off of your experiences ingame. Yeah i hate OP's and Sin's with a passion and absolutely cannot stand 1 button sorcs (mostly cause it requires 0% skill to mash 1 skill over and over again). i have mutilated other assault VG's in comparable gear and have been pounded by OPs and SIns like i was running around naked. My point is this, it takes skill to play whether PvE or PvP, some people might seem OP because they waste you in a few hits or solo kill champion class mobs 3 lvls higher then them. Jealousy is the biggest reason folks yell "thats not fair, they're too OP!!", when infact its just cause you are either inexperienced or just plain suck at playing that class to its full potential.

 

The devs stated in an interview right after 1.3 that all dps builds are w/n 5% and that some class builds would require more skill to optimize DPS then others.

 

And lastly, the highest boost dmg would go to the Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel spec'd properly the amount of burst dmg they can produce and sustain is beyond ridiculous. Collect the data yourself, before stating BS facts that are only supported by yourself.

[Xandole]

Just wanted to add that BW would be fools to nerf us this bad, I dont remember reading anything about Guardians / Juggs only being able to toss a saber and force leap 10m. DPS spec'd still wear Heavy armor, They Stack DoTs they have insane burst dmg, **** they OP kill em all!!!

 

BW just fix the broken crap and leave the DPS PT/VG class skills alone FFS!! all we really want is to be left alone and have the same 25% agro dump skill that every class in the game has but us!

Edited September 13, 2012 by Xandole

[Karasuko]

I run meters and upload raid data 5-6 times a week and will say straight out the box that all DPS classes are w/n 5% of each other right now. Skill has less to do with the tool and more to do with the abilities of the user.

 

Here is the thing, next time your in a HM/NiM OPS look to see how much of your dps are pyrotech's or assault VG's you might, and i strongly say MIGHT have one with you. Yeah we do have heavy sustainable dps lack of the same 25% agro dump in our rotation makes us a fracken liability to the raid. ALL and i mean EVERY single class minus the Vanguards and the Powertechs have either skills they can put points into or have a 25% agro dump on a cd that is put into a rotation to maximize DPS and help keep agro on the tanks where it belongs. Even while guarded we can pull agro off our tanks sometimes resulting in a wipe.

 

And in case you "oh you need the nerf" folks dont have the intelligence to do data collecting and/or will just sit on your rear and wait for someone to point out the obvious to you, here it goes....

 

ELEMENTAL and INTERNAL BASED DAMAGE!! there are only two classes that have any real mitigation against elemental based dmg, shadow and assassin tanks, everyone else just gets the full brunt of the elemental based dmg. and thats the ONLY reason we cause so much more dmg to other players. And for the same reasons as to why poisons and bleeds (internal dmg types) wreck your life so fast. So there you have it BW, make mit boosts for elemental and internal type dmg available and leave the pyro/VG skills alone.

 

Any class in the hands of a skilled player is lethal. I have played every single subclass type (VG, Guardian, Sage, GS, Mrdr, Merc, Sin and OP) to lvl 50 i play them all very well but i am absolutely lethal with my Assault VG and my Mrdr. I have never seen (and i have been around since beta) any one class that is OP. People tend to get one sided when it comes to saying a class is OP based off of your experiences ingame. Yeah i hate OP's and Sin's with a passion and absolutely cannot stand 1 button sorcs (mostly cause it requires 0% skill to mash 1 skill over and over again). i have mutilated other assault VG's in comparable gear and have been pounded by OPs and SIns like i was running around naked. My point is this, it takes skill to play whether PvE or PvP, some people might seem OP because they waste you in a few hits or solo kill champion class mobs 3 lvls higher then them. Jealousy is the biggest reason folks yell "thats not fair, they're too OP!!", when infact its just cause you are either inexperienced or just plain suck at playing that class to its full potential.

 

The devs stated in an interview right after 1.3 that all dps builds are w/n 5% and that some class builds would require more skill to optimize DPS then others.

 

And lastly, the highest boost dmg would go to the Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel spec'd properly the amount of burst dmg they can produce and sustain is beyond ridiculous. Collect the data yourself, before stating BS facts that are only supported by yourself.

 

Nice offtopic rant that has nothign to do with PVE. I really don't think that the changes to vanguards/PT's will actually change alot when it comes to your raid spot, You ahve data? show us that VG/Pt's are in the "pack"

Otherwise its just anecdotal defense.

 

I think these changes will put you in the pack where you belong, not with the outlier WATCHMEN sents.If this is the case you don't need a gap closer. If it drops your DPS in ops down to where infil shadows and concealment operatives are now then you should be getting somethign done to bring your damage upto par.

 

remember the goal is for eveyrone to be in the middle, not 5% off the top dps.

[Xandole]

easier said then done considering all but 3 skills will be nerfed from 30m to a 10m max range. seems small but it will cripple these two class for absolutely no logical reason. and i stated that these proposed 1.4 changes will not effect PvE much. but will make DPS PT/VG 's useless in pvp. any class with range can just kit us around and the only attacks we will have is our basic shot (hammer shot) and a sticky grenade every 15s and every 45s we can maybe harpoon someone. everything else will have a 10meter range. these proposed 1.4 changes will turn these two classes into PvP fodder.

[DacRycar]

Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

 

She didn't read the patch notes.

[Macroecon]

remember the goal is for eveyrone (sic) to be in the middle, not 5% off the top dps.

 

No.

 

How many times do I have to say it. The sole reliance on the dps metric to evaluate class (im)balance is completely flawed. Such a philosophy ignores the utility benefits various classes bring to their team. The ability of an assassin tank to exit combat as his teammates defending a node are getting wiped out and then return to stop the node cap just as the enemy's cap bar is full, extends the defense of that node by 15 seconds and many, many times allows respawning defenders to resume the defense. That skill alone is worth more than a 5% dps bump. Similarly the leap abilities in Huttball and the Marauders Predation ability at the start of any wz are completely and incorrectly ignored when one makes the 5% dps metric the altar at which you base class balance.

 

Moreover, and more fundamentally the 5% dps (or damage+protection+healing) metric is flawed because it fails to take into account player skill. Players new to their class typically perform worse than average. Their inclusion in Bioware's meta average statistics skews FotM classes lower and results in BW managing class (im)balance by repeatedly buffing FotM classes. Instead the correct methodology which would be to base class balance on best practices for each class.

[nDjiin]

I really would like a dev to read this thread and comment on what we are saying - there are some very insightful posts that need to be read before deciding what needs to be changed with regards to class 'revamps'.

 

These are the people you need to listen to - the players that have obviously put a lot of time into not just playing the game but understanding the mechanics of it also.

[SneiK]

OP, please remove 'Powetech' from the Thread name.

 

AP gets buffed.

 

Pyro gets a much needed nerf (although, I only agree with the TD 10meter part)

 

...The real problem is, they didn't touch the Shield Tech, which needs a total overhaul of talents for PvP.

 

Powerechs will be fine.

[Adrenalracer]

OP, please remove 'Powetech' from the Thread name.

 

AP gets buffed.

 

Pyro gets a much needed nerf (although, I only agree with the TD 10meter part)

 

...The real problem is, they didn't touch the Shield Tech, which needs a total overhaul of talents for PvP.

 

Powerechs will be fine.

^^^^^x100000

I honestly didn't care about the Pyro nerfs and the AP buffs until I saw how they didn't touch the Shield Tech...