1.4 Commandos (Concussive Force)

[stendarrs]

No you didn't misread it. It does remove the knockback and replace it with immobilize.

 

I dunno, I've read it several times now and it does specifically refer to concussive "force" rather than "charge". I think the KB is still there, but like sages, commandos can now spend points to create a root after the KB. I actually proposed this exact change over in the class forums some time ago. If I'm wrong and the KB is gone though, well, that just blows big time. I will officially retire my commando if the KB is totally removed. Can anyone else chime in on whether they think this is just a change to tree talent or complete removal of the KB ability??

[Henu]

Its funny, all the good Commandos and good merc PVPers are saying how bad this change is yet its the part time PVPers that are loving it and their reasoning is stupid, they are saying that a stun is going to help with survivability? we have 2 CC's already that both can be instant, we dont need a 3rd.

 

As a Merc, all we needed was an interrupt that we are getting, and a little move survivability. stunning and running is not going to help me stay alive. 1 v 1 it might sound like a good idea but in WZ's its 8 v 8 and you rarely get to go 1 v 1.

The rocket punch is key for mercs in Huttball and CW, dont take this away from us.

[heechJunzi]

I dunno, I've read it several times now and it does specifically refer to concussive "force" rather than "charge". I think the KB is still there, but like sages, commandos can now spend points to create a root after the KB. I actually proposed this exact change over in the class forums some time ago. If I'm wrong and the KB is gone though, well, that just blows big time. I will officially retire my commando if the KB is totally removed. Can anyone else chime in on whether they think this is just a change to tree talent or complete removal of the KB ability??

Yea, of course. You thought we were losing our generic knock-back strategy? God no.

 

They're talking about the talent by which a stock-strike knocks a melee attacker back 4m (or whatever). And yes, I still FIRMLY believe I'd prefer the 4s root which doesn't increase their resolve, rather than pushing them back 4 meters (which buys me almost nothing).

[Jherad]

Yea, of course. You thought we were losing our generic knock-back strategy? God no.

 

They're talking about the talent by which a stock-strike knocks a melee attacker back 4m (or whatever). And yes, I still FIRMLY believe I'd prefer the 4s root which doesn't increase their resolve, rather than pushing them back 4 meters (which buys me almost nothing).

 

And AGAIN, you're completely missing the point that the root is not going to get you away from anything, and won't interrupt anything.

 

 

Edit: @stendarrs - Gunnery commandos have two knockbacks, one from concussion charge and one from stockstrike - this was very useful because gunnery is so much more vulnerable to melee than assault, and provided both a knockback and interrupt for channeled abilities like Ravage. The change proposes losing the stockstrike knockback in return for a short duration root, within melee range.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Jherad

[Henu]

Yea, of course. You thought we were losing our generic knock-back strategy? God no.

 

They're talking about the talent by which a stock-strike knocks a melee attacker back 4m (or whatever). And yes, I still FIRMLY believe I'd prefer the 4s root which doesn't increase their resolve, rather than pushing them back 4 meters (which buys me almost nothing).

 

With this so called new resolve system that is coming out in 1.4 the punch/strike would be fine. i'd rather be knocking the person with the hutt ball off the catwalk than stunning him... its just good tactics.

[DashaAdair]

Hate to be the negative guy here....But these changes made one thing clear...BW doesnt understand the Merc/Commando class dynamics in PvP at all...Since they "dont get it" This AC will always get short changed.

 

Heavy Armor and off heals have given them some skewed view that Merc/Commando has the ability to survive in melee range for atleast short duratioins...As shown by these changes...Electro dart range shortened to melee, attached a root to Stock Strike...also melee. This makes it clear they expect the AC to be in melee before they can attempt to control an opponent...People who play the AC know that Heavy Armor, and off heals wont save you from an insanely quick death in melee range. The AC has no potential to tank a melee AC at all...You have to start at range...stay at range, and finish the fight at range or you going to get Snared, rooted, controlled and killed in a heart beat.

 

Merc is a ranged class that must think tactically to stay at range to win a fight...Not wait till your hosed to drop a stun or a root...you've already given the advantage away.

 

This AC is going to always suffer until BW changes their concept of the AC to fit how it actually has to be played to succeed.

 

Honestly the best thing people can do for DPS Merc/Commando's is stop playing them.... Go heals or plpay another AC...Show BW the thing they understand...An overwhelmimgly low AC population metric.

 

I was waiting for this information to come out...and I really hope there are more changes coming, but I have lost interest in this AC. Juggernaut is basically my main now regardless..and It seems to be one of the AC's that bioware understands...Guess Darth Vader cleared it up for them.

 

I blame it on the Fett's...Bolba gets one shotted by a smuggler and falls in the Sarlac...Jango gets one shotted by Mace Windu...Clone Troopers are always getting one shotted by everyone....Now this AC stinks...Go figure.

 

I somewhat agree, but I want to give the developers the benefit of the doubt here. It seems like someone versed in melee/mobile characters was asked to work on this and just lost sight of the stationary aspect of the class. It is a clear disconnect, a kind of concept dissonance.

 

I have two commandos and both have Concussive Force specifically because of the knockback effect. They are built for PvP. I don't like giving up ground. When someone steps up to me I knock them back. I don't want to have to pin them and slink away every time someone stops next to me. The person who built this may think it's fun, but it's not.

 

What worries me is I saw this in the developer tracker:

 

From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun.

 

What is somewhat encouraging is the follow on:

 

Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

 

But I believe the statement is forward leaning, meaning change will come, at best, reluctantly. I know it's tempting to swing at the pitch hoping to hit the ball out of the park, but it is, perhaps better to advance the runner and not get an out.

Edited September 5, 2012 by DashaAdair

[DashaAdair]

I dunno, I've read it several times now and it does specifically refer to concussive "force" rather than "charge". I think the KB is still there, but like sages, commandos can now spend points to create a root after the KB. I actually proposed this exact change over in the class forums some time ago. If I'm wrong and the KB is gone though, well, that just blows big time. I will officially retire my commando if the KB is totally removed. Can anyone else chime in on whether they think this is just a change to tree talent or complete removal of the KB ability??

 

The knockback for Stockstrike comes from Concussive Force. One rank gives stockstrike a 50% chance to knockback, the second rank makes it 100%. Concussive Force also increases Concussion Charge's knockback effect by 2 and 4 meters respectively.

Edited September 5, 2012 by DashaAdair

[DashaAdair]

Yea, of course. You thought we were losing our generic knock-back strategy? God no.

 

They're talking about the talent by which a stock-strike knocks a melee attacker back 4m (or whatever). And yes, I still FIRMLY believe I'd prefer the 4s root which doesn't increase their resolve, rather than pushing them back 4 meters (which buys me almost nothing).

 

When you are stopping a cap you do not want to root the guy right next to the spot where he can continue to effectively cap. And don't forget, if you root him next to you there is every possiblility you are rooted or snared as well so you are not increasing the range between you and him with stockstrike any more. You'll end up stuck next to him with him still whaling on you.

 

You'll only have one knockback, that is Concussion Charge, and it's on a long cooldown.

[Henu]

In Hutt Ball i've ran right next to the guy with the ball and just knocked back everyone that came near us, its my by far the best fun i have had, i dont want to lose this ability for another stun.

[DarthSabreth]

I shelved my commando because i felt it was lacking 3 weeks ago, now after reading this i have no desire to be a walking target for gap closers. we need that knock back in many situations.

[DarthSabreth]

In Hutt Ball i've ran right next to the guy with the ball and just knocked back everyone that came near us, its my by far the best fun i have had, i dont want to lose this ability for another stun.

 

i honestly do not think that they play this game, or read the forums. they do the exact oposite the community clamors for. there has been many times my nock back on my commando has saved a team mate carrying the ball or saved me, in my oppinion the nockback is the best ability i have, the most fun too.

[Henu]

i honestly do not think that they play this game, or read the forums. they do the exact oposite the community clamors for. there has been many times my nock back on my commando has saved a team mate carrying the ball or saved me, in my oppinion the nockback is the best ability i have, the most fun too.

 

i agree they dont play, nor read the forums enough to understand what we are talking about. BW employees should be forced to play the game they are working on.

[ArchangelLBC]

Hate to be the negative guy here....But these changes made one thing clear...BW doesnt understand the Merc/Commando class dynamics in PvP at all...Since they "dont get it" This AC will always get short changed.

 

Heavy Armor and off heals have given them some skewed view that Merc/Commando has the ability to survive in melee range for atleast short duratioins...As shown by these changes...Electro dart range shortened to melee, attached a root to Stock Strike...also melee. This makes it clear they expect the AC to be in melee before they can attempt to control an opponent...People who play the AC know that Heavy Armor, and off heals wont save you from an insanely quick death in melee range. The AC has no potential to tank a melee AC at all...You have to start at range...stay at range, and finish the fight at range or you going to get Snared, rooted, controlled and killed in a heart beat.

 

Merc is a ranged class that must think tactically to stay at range to win a fight...Not wait till your hosed to drop a stun or a root...you've already given the advantage away.

 

This AC is going to always suffer until BW changes their concept of the AC to fit how it actually has to be played to succeed.

 

Honestly the best thing people can do for DPS Merc/Commando's is stop playing them.... Go heals or plpay another AC...Show BW the thing they understand...An overwhelmimgly low AC population metric.

 

I was waiting for this information to come out...and I really hope there are more changes coming, but I have lost interest in this AC. Juggernaut is basically my main now regardless..and It seems to be one of the AC's that bioware understands...Guess Darth Vader cleared it up for them.

 

I blame it on the Fett's...Bolba gets one shotted by a smuggler and falls in the Sarlac...Jango gets one shotted by Mace Windu...Clone Troopers are always getting one shotted by everyone....Now this AC stinks...Go figure.

 

Pretty much this. My shadow is mostly my main now and that makes me pretty sad because I'd much rather be on my commando. The AC needs to engage at range and stay at range and unfortunately can often do neither, and these changes do nothing. I'd gladly have traded the knockback on Stock strike if Concussive Force now added a root to Concussion Charge. Adding a root to stock strike is just ridiculous, and the more I think about it the angrier at BW I get. I might actually copy over to the PTS and test this in PVP just so I can have a good basis for telling BW how much it sucks, just so they can ignore me again. So sick of them completely misunderstanding how the AC works.

 

I want to give the developers the benefit of the doubt here

 

I haven't been able to give them the benefit of the doubt since 1.2. 1.3 was a huge step in the right direction and made the class top shelf in PVE again, but on the PVP front the AC is still greatly lacking.

 

What worries me is I saw this in the developer tracker:

 

From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun.

 

That response seemed specifically aimed at concerns about the change to the Consular/Inquisitor knockback. No worries, no one on their internal playtesting team is using a commando.

[remystone]

I'm ticked that I finally grinded my way to 50 on my commando and now they want to take away the only thing that gives me breathing room in PVP.

[DimeStax]

which makes it more pointless.. root them rite near you and they can still DPS the crap out of you, and if you run, most of the other classes have an ability to close the gap, grapple, leap, force run...

 

They can't leap when they're rooted and only HEALING sages will be able to break root with their force speed (Oh Noez, those healing sages are gonna close the gap on you!). The only thing you have to fear is grapple, but I don't understand how this is a legitimate argument in the first place since your situation would be worse if the ability remained a knockback (they can still leap back to you after being knocked back, they can still force speed to you, they can still grapple you). At least rooting them doesn't let them leap or Force Speed to you.

[Lajota]

Seriously, i do not think they play this game at all.

 

They should have just reduced the resolve gain from stockstrike instead...

As for additional cc, giving sticky grenade a slow effect on everyone it hits would have been better and made more sense.

 

Now commandos lost their biggest utility in huttball (knocking someone off the catwalk every 9 seconds), lost our ability to interrupt masterstrikes and lightning strikes from assassins/shadows.

 

gg Bioware, looks like my valor 90 commando will finally retire. Apparently nerfing the worst class in the game in every update sounded like a good idea.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Lajota

[Jherad]

They can't leap when they're rooted and only HEALING sages will be able to break root with their force speed (Oh Noez, those healing sages are gonna close the gap on you!). The only thing you have to fear is grapple, but I don't understand how this is a legitimate argument in the first place since your situation would be worse if the ability remained a knockback (they can still leap back to you after being knocked back, they can still force speed to you, they can still grapple you). At least rooting them doesn't let them leap or Force Speed to you.

 

By the time you get out of range, their root will have worn off. Meanwhile, you'll be eating a ravage in your back (which, you know, you could have interrupted with a knockback).

 

There are plenty of great uses for knockbacks, as any good commando will tell you.

[Soljin]

They can't leap when they're rooted and only HEALING sages will be able to break root with their force speed (Oh Noez, those healing sages are gonna close the gap on you!). The only thing you have to fear is grapple, but I don't understand how this is a legitimate argument in the first place since your situation would be worse if the ability remained a knockback (they can still leap back to you after being knocked back, they can still force speed to you, they can still grapple you). At least rooting them doesn't let them leap or Force Speed to you.

 

Juggs will have you auto rooted, Maras will root you with their opening move upon landing...and at will...and Im sure you know the distance you gain wont help you against a PT. So that leaves other ranged AC's...Which have everything Merc has and more as far as control abilities....Sniper has considerably more and will root you and eat your face so you cant LoS them.

 

Honestly the only other AC we have a chance against in the game still is Sorc...and they still have more tools then Merc....Even more now that Merc will only have one KB and no way to stop uninteruptable abilities.....

 

People can try to defend this change but the fact is Merc is way under privledged when it comes to staying at range and they did not need to remove anything...only add a RANGED root, give us the interupt we should have always had....and a reliable snare....which we still dont get(save for bodyguard, and gratz to the spec that was already ok...but still gtratz). AKA they failed big.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Soljin

[Jherad]

Yeah, I find it amusing that in the feedback thread, the only PvP spec people thought was worth a damn was Combat Medic... and that is the only spec that has been buffed for 1.4.

 

/Sigh

[SpaniardInfinity]

I've said it on other threads, I wouldn't get completely worked up over the changes just yet. There may be buffs (or perhaps more nerfs, if that's even possible for Gunnery DPS) that were not announced and will be in the patch notes. I remember when they said they were buffing Combat Medic AoE healing (Kolto Bomb) and then nerfed Supercharged Cells, Field Triage, Trauma Probe, Kolto Residue, and Kolto Bomb's supercharged shield (Defense Screen, I believe?) without warning.

 

But if these are really the only changes coming to Gunnery DPS, yeah, that absolutely is a shame. I don't main a Gunnery (I main a Combat Medic) I'm familiar with the build enough to know that these changes don't inspire hope. Gunnery desperately needs to be able to control the enemy, specifically to keep them out of melee range. Forcing the Gunnery go INTO melee range doesn't make sense -- at least not with the way I perceive the class (as ranged). Presently, the changes to Cyro Grenade, the root on Stockstrike instead of knockback, and the rumored 10m nerf to High Impact Bolt all appear ready to harm Gunnery further. A ranged interrupt in a world where the highest burst classes are interrupt-immune or instant-cast (and this immune) will solve absolutely nothing.

[Rickwala]

I can tell you from a marauderr perspective this is a big nerf to you guys. One thing that drives me crazy is i am about to kill a ball carrier and he rocket punches me into the pit off the catwalks right after i just leapt to him. With a 4 second root no biggy i can leap, saber throw w/snare or even get a ravage off without worrying about going all the way back up like knocking me into the pit, you are going to hate us marauders even more after this change trust me. Edited September 6, 2012 by Rickwala

[Mercury_Down]

I have a vangaurd and commando at 50 (both valor 80+) and I enjoy both classes but as gimped as a commando is I actually prefer playing it over my VG. I've tried every conceivable spec for the commando (I currently have a 3/24/14 spec which works quite well - for a comando) and the removal of the knockback for a root is really going to suck.

 

While I understand the devs concerns over resolve, why in the name of all that is holy can they simply not lower the amount of resolve the knockback generates?

 

My suggestion would be to keep the knockback as is, lower the amount of resolve it generates (if they really feel it is necessary) and ADD the root to the knockback so the opponent is knocked back and then rooted for four seconds (with the effect disappearing after two seconds if the target is damaged.) This would be similar to other abilities other classes have, only it would be single target.

 

Making a change like this would be of significant benefit to the gunnery tree. Now, if any melee attacks me I can only delay my inevitable death (unless I can knock the opponent off a ledge in huttball) but having a knockback + root would give the commando one or two attacks a chance to land and maybe swing the fight in his favour. I can't see how this would be overpowered at all.

 

I stongly hope the devs DO NOT remove the knockback. If they can add the root to the knock back then they would be taking a step in the right direction for the gunnery tree.

[Soljin]

If you (BW) insist on trying to make a Ranged DPS get into Melee then By all means do...But do it well. Give us a bunch of interupt defenses so its possible...Or Just let all the Non Healing Mercs respec to PT.

 

If that is not the intent then do ranged proper..Give us ranged kiting ability...A ranged root, and On Demand snare on an appropriate CD. Give us a Disengage (Jump back 15 meters and drop target) ability since we are the Only AC with no AC defining ability...YES you left Merc out there as well.....Thanks for the Interupt!!!! Little late though.

 

Its insane to me that the Developers cant understand that Merc was left out on multiple fronts...PT=Grapple Sorc=pull, sprint. Assasin=Stealth, pull. Op=stealth Sniper=cover Jugg=Leap, Intercede. Mara=Vanish, Group Buffs. Merc=Nothing One could have argued that we have two KB's, although not a class defining skill...Merc was the only AC with 2 KB's....WAS. Its just bad...BW doesnt get it, and Im starting to wonder what is going on with them seriously. BW has always been the only Game developer I openly supported...But Im starting to wonder if they are still what they once were.