Let's discuss the latest 1.4 commando changes !

[Oticus]

Everyone and his dog is rank 80+ now. You've been at it a couple of months? How frequently have you run ranked with this beast of yours? You can see a few of my PvP videos in my sig, lets see some of yours.

 

Never mind, I'll see you on the test server no doubt. I'm sure you're not all mouth. No sir. What's your character name?

 

My point has always been about competitive matches vs good players. Any reasonable player can roll muppets with any class. I'd go one step further and say any reasonable player could get in the top 3 DPS in a standard pug using just your first zero resource ability over and over.

 

I don't care about that, I'm after improvements that will help against the best of the best.

 

Just because I dont feel the need to post you tube vids or stroke my epeen doesnt mean I dont know what i am talking about in response to my playstyle and succes rate as a gunnery commando in PVP. My response about valor rank and DPS was only in response to your smart *** comment (PVP much?). As far as our class being able to take on the best of the best one on one.... I agree that we dont match up when taking on someone of equal skill or gear. But these changes are a step in the right direction... So go post more you tube vids and play on the test server and make parse records etc...and make us all proud while I am having fun playing the game and enjoying the chages.

[Jherad]

You are absolutely right in that you are free to enjoy the game as you like. Nobody is stopping you, least of all me. I don't care if you're the best of the best, or a casual player who PvPs once in a blue moon - a game is a game, and if you are having fun, that is all that should count for your own play experience.

 

In ranked warzones against the best teams, facing marauders and powertechs all capable of doing around a million damage in a single game - with the best meleers able to easily shut down commandos (particularly gunnery) in group play, I want every available tool left at my disposal, and more besides. When I say that something is very useful, and if removed will affect us (or at least those of us experienced enough to use our abilities to their full potential) adversely, I know what I am talking about. This is not about 'epeen', it is about ensuring we don't get a raw deal at the top end.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Jherad

[ArchangelLBC]

Why yes I do PVP much... Valor rank 88 and typically in the top 2 DPS in most WZs which is why I dont understand your incessant whining... If people target the commando and not the healer because they are "easy meat" then they are morons because any decent commando should be able to position themselves to make this as difficult and time consuming as possible. So as far as my irritation with your posts like yours.... you are complaining about an ability change(stockstrike) that was ok at best but hardly a game changer, to one marginally worse. If this small change makes a huge difference in your PVP (all your theorycrafting aside) then I am sorry but you probably arent that good to begin with

 

 

The thing is that Commando is so far below the other classes that even a marginal change for the worst is just adding insult to injury, and like I said my real problem with it is how it reflects on what BW thinks about our class. Many people, myself included have been saying we needed some sort of root, especially in gunnery. I even suggested that concussive force was a great place to put a root by having it added to concussion charge which still wouldn't have all the benefits of a ranged root, but WOULD make the ability a real distance creator. Instead they changed the knockback on stock strike to a root which is just a real head scratcher for me because I honestly just don't understand why they'd do that (unless like I said he misspoke about how they were changing the talent and instead of adding a knock back to stock strike it now adds a root to concussion charge which would be a GREAT change in my opinion).

 

And hey maybe we are misunderstanding it, but I haven't yet seen them clear it up, so it just makes me wonder if they're serious. No changes at all would be less discouraging actually. It's like they acknowledge commando has some problems in PVP (which is good. I'm glad they realize that), and then make some changes that don't really make much sense.

 

Just because I dont feel the need to post you tube vids or stroke my epeen doesnt mean I dont know what i am talking about in response to my playstyle and succes rate as a gunnery commando in PVP. My response about valor rank and DPS was only in response to your smart *** comment (PVP much?). As far as our class being able to take on the best of the best one on one.... I agree that we dont match up when taking on someone of equal skill or gear. But these changes are a step in the right direction... So go post more you tube vids and play on the test server and make parse records etc...and make us all proud while I am having fun playing the game and enjoying the chages.

 

See I just don't know. They're steps certainly, but they're kinda all over the place rather than in one direction, and it just leaves me confused all over again as to what they think we're supposed to be there for.

[Jherad]

Many people, myself included have been saying we needed some sort of root, especially in gunnery. I even suggested that concussive force was a great place to put a root by having it added to concussion charge which still wouldn't have all the benefits of a ranged root, but WOULD make the ability a real distance creator. Instead they changed the knockback on stock strike to a root which is just a real head scratcher for me because I honestly just don't understand why they'd do that (unless like I said he misspoke about how they were changing the talent and instead of adding a knock back to stock strike it now adds a root to concussion charge which would be a GREAT change in my opinion).

 

Yes, a thousand times this.

 

I LOVE the idea of attaching a root to one of our knockbacks. My personal suggestion back in August was to attach one to the stockstrike knockback, but concussion charge works as well (although perhaps a little too powerful if we're talking about rooting everything in the AOE). Anything to buy us a couple of seconds breathing space against our melee target.

 

Hmm, from a gunnery perspective:

 

1) No interrupt on Full auto

2) No resisting concussion charge (not talking about resolve here)

3) root or snare on stockstrike KB

4) Long dot on sticky grenade and/or turning explosive round into something useful

5) Add minor damage zone effect to stealth scan (ie. giving us defensive anticapping utility)

6) Unnerf charged barrier back to 2% per stack.

 

Essentially give us better CC, better instants, better surivability, better utility - without increasing our damage output when left alone. An interrupt would be nice, but I'd be happy without it if I got all of the above.

 

Sure, asking for all of those is ambitious, but they are (imho) what would help us most.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Jherad

[oaceen]

Despite the fact that he is right?

 

yes. in fact, i agree with some of what he's saying.

 

however, people have opinions. just because someone strongly believes in their opinion doesn't mean that it's correct (or 'more correct' than others) or that anything else is incorrect, uninformed, or shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Luceon]

yes. in fact, i agree with some of what he's saying.

 

however, people have opinions. just because someone strongly believes in their opinion doesn't mean that it's correct (or 'more correct' than others) or that anything else is incorrect, uninformed, or shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

Correct, which is why I remained out of the conversation otherwise. We all have a biased view of others determined by how they talk or what they say (which can be greatly obscured over simple text).

 

However I still stand with Jherad on this particular point. I (and almost any other commando I have met in game) have always made good use of the stock strike knock back and Oticus is the first person I have seen who appreciates the change. Hell, I remember joining a guild once and the 'resident' commando asked me if I was talented into the stock strike knock back (as a way to tell if I am an experienced commando and make use of more utility as opposed to less). As such I feel that Oticus doesn't use stock strike to its fullest or doesn't use the gunnery mechanics to its fullest. Does it mean he is a bad player? I certainly do not think so. Does it form a bias opinion for me? Unfortunately yes, but I have been playing commando since release (and some in beta) and have dedicated hours into understanding the design of it and how best to use it (just the design, I don't have patience for theory crafty and min-maxing).

 

Now please Jherad and Oticus, stop the hot headed (or near hot headed) attitudes and simply agree to disagree. Everyone has their own preference and use of a certain skill, and of course, can even voice them out. However at the same time, majority rules. When everyone around you says something is wrong except you, then you might want to reconsider reevaluating some of your thoughts. Doesn't necessarily mean how you use the skill is incorrect, and if you find more use of it otherwise more for you, but there is a large portion of commando players who are not seeing the use in it. Not enough to make the change to what it will be.

 

Also, there is the "we may not know what he meant" part by ArchangelLBC. I am not so sure about that considering the sentences (to me) were pretty straight forward and deliberate. I believe that they absolutely intend to give a 4m skill the ability to root enemies next to us.

[Jherad]

I certainly don't subscribe to the 'all opinions are valid' type philosophy, I think sometimes opinions are just provably wrong, and this is one of those times. That said, yes - hot headedness over (). I am not sure more can be said on the stockstrike knockback without going in circles. As fun as that can be.

[TheMB]

Just a head scratcher for me in this update is why didn't they just copy the Gunslinger/ Sniper knock back instead of putting a root for a melee ranged ability (Bottles the mind if you think too much about it.) Whatever, once the test servers come back up then we'll see if these changes produce more "Fun" that the Dev team promises or just more head pounding agony.

[oaceen]

Also, there is the "we may not know what he meant" part by ArchangelLBC. I am not so sure about that considering the sentences (to me) were pretty straight forward and deliberate. I believe that they absolutely intend to give a 4m skill the ability to root enemies next to us.

i was wondering about this as well. what exactly they meant by immobilized, and came to the conclusion that if they had meant a knockdown, stun, or any other CC than a root, they probably would have used a different term for it.

 

hopefully they mean a complete mezz, but we'll see.

[ArchangelLBC]

Also, there is the "we may not know what he meant" part by ArchangelLBC. I am not so sure about that considering the sentences (to me) were pretty straight forward and deliberate. I believe that they absolutely intend to give a 4m skill the ability to root enemies next to us.

 

Oh the statement as it currently reads I agree. It seems to be pretty clear that they intend to attach the root to Stockstrike. I'm just wondering (hoping more like, but not every expectantly) if he misspoke when he wrote it, and he simply hasn't changed it cause he hasn't caught it yet (otherwise they should have cleared it up by now).

 

Given that the statement hasn't been amended I highly doubt it though and I agree they're going through with this ridiculous change.

[Luceon]

Oh the statement as it currently reads I agree. It seems to be pretty clear that they intend to attach the root to Stockstrike. I'm just wondering (hoping more like, but not every expectantly) if he misspoke when he wrote it, and he simply hasn't changed it cause he hasn't caught it yet (otherwise they should have cleared it up by now).

 

Given that the statement hasn't been amended I highly doubt it though and I agree they're going through with this ridiculous change.

 

I see. Well I have kind of pretty much lost hope by now. BW and EA seem to enjoy controlling their customers. It is clear from the guild placement system at launch, the "optional" server transfers, and even in other games like the Mass Effect series on PC where they refuse to include game pad support (or any other form of control) instead of keyboard and mouse (they have even gone so far with Mass Effect 3 as to find ways to stop their customers from finding alternate routes to use something other than keyboard and mouse). It saddens me, I enjoyed this game a lot, played it almost religiously from launch till roughly mid-late summer but I have simply had enough.

[Meepbot]

Okay, i may not be the best PvPer (none of my toons are higher the Valor 70, laugh all you want at my lack of epeen ), but looking at the changes to stockstrike/rocket punch, is it really so much worse? I may be missing something, but the knockback they give now is minimal - 3-4, maybe 5 meters if i remember correctly - so all the melee has to do is take a step or two forward and just get right back on you, no harm done. True, it could knock an attacker off an edge with some positioning, but then they just jump straight to you, and once again, no harm done, which was the problem someone had with the root, it lets you get about ten meters away and then they just jump right to you, no harm done. true, it let you interrupt master strike, but with the cryo change, i get the feeling people are going to be using that instead, which really just brings up the resolve problem again. Speaking of resolve, i believe the problem BW had with the current knockback is that even though the trooper had 3 ways to keep an enemy at range (Cryo, stock, and Concussion Charge, not including Concussion Round), they could only use 2, because of resolve. Either they used concussion charge and Cryo grenade, filling resolve, or they could use stock and cryo, filling resolve, or they could use stock and concussion charge when the melee comes back a second later, filling resolve. Any of these ways stops the commando from using its full range of "distance-keepers", but now that SS has a root instead of a KB, you can use all 3 if necessary. I think its a similar reason why BW decided to nerf most stuns as well, they wanted it to be more of an escape mechanic than an offensive one for ranged classes, who dont like melee in their face.

 

If i said anything wrong or incorrect, please say so. As i said, I'm not exactly the best pvper, i just dont think its really THAT big of a difference, and it actually is a buff, taking into account the reason they changed it, resolve.

 

Also I'm all for adding a root on Concussion charge, that would really help

 

Oh and someone said somewhere that ALL omnidirectional KB's were becoming cones, thats not true, only the sorc/sage KB will be a cone, according to the highlights, so Snipers/GS/Commandos/Mercs are unaffected by this

 

and finally, sorry for switching to acronyms for all the moves, i just got lazy

[Bleeters]

Not that I've pvp'd in a while, but my general impression of the existing stockstrike knockback is that it serves a few specific purposes:

 

- breaking master strikes, ravage and similar abilities that are otherwise uninterruptable with a 9s cooldown ability: considerably less than our other abilities that could do the same

- pushing people into hazards or off ledges

- knocking anyone not full on resolve away from the commando

 

The last one is pretty obvious, but it's worth explaining: it allows a commando to remain stationary whilst pushing the target away. The new stockstrike will cause the target to remain stationary whilst the commando moves, as if a gunnery commando on the move is anything more than dead weight.

 

Personally, I didn't think the current stockstrike was all that. It wasn't the ability that made or broke the class. The problem is, this is exactly the wrong thing that was needed. Gunnery needs more ways to stand still, not less.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Bleeters

[Oticus]

Correct, which is why I remained out of the conversation otherwise. We all have a biased view of others determined by how they talk or what they say (which can be greatly obscured over simple text).

 

However I still stand with Jherad on this particular point. I (and almost any other commando I have met in game) have always made good use of the stock strike knock back and Oticus is the first person I have seen who appreciates the change. .

 

OMG for the rcord I never said that I appreciate the stock strike change... but I am hardly of the bellief that changing it to a root is a monster game changer. It had specific uses but I think having a root will also have some decent utuility in PVP as well. And again my point was not that losing the stock strike knock back was a good thing but that in light of all the other things we were getting ( or keeping), my overall feeling was we were getting buffed. Which is why I said the glass was "3/4 full" originally.

[Jherad]

Yeah, where we differ is on how severe this change is. For me, and many other Commandos and Mercs, the KB on stockstrike is *integral* to how we deal with good melee, and it is my strong opinion that a using a root against them will do absolutely nothing to mitigate damage, interrupt an ability, or anything else of use.

 

Then there is the reduction in cryo which is just a flat out nerf, and will make us fodder for snipers as well as reducing our ability to deal with other classes at our intended range.

 

In return we get an interrupt which will help against merc healers and sorcs (two classes which weren't the greatest threats to us, but ok), and a heal proc which is barely worth the global cooldown to cast if you're getting hit.

 

Before these changes were announced, my biggest complaint was about the viability of Commando DPS in high-end ranked PvP. They were/are considered just about the *worst* class to bring - bar none. There is absolutely nothing that a commando dps brings to a RWZ that cannot be done *significantly* better than another class.

 

Why? Because it is *trivial* for a top well organised team (read: coordinates focus, taunts, chain CC and interrupts on Voice chat) to make a commando DPS (particularly gunnery - assault just has the privilege of being a crap Vanguard) worthless. Heck, it is triviial for a single top meleer (or PT) to make a commando DPS worthless. For many people who do *nothing* but warzones (I ran my first lvl 50 op last night - in PvP gear lol) and have taken the time to study every class, duel them repeatedly, learn their weaknesses and strengths, and fine-tune their performances the announcment of these changes was sad. Because these changes not only fail to address our issues in RWZs, but actually make them *worse*.

 

So, I'm not 'QQing', I'm trying to say, in the strongest terms possible, that changes like this are the absolute death knell for gunnery commandos in RWZs - so that they might be reevaluated. Perhaps the devs might even listen to some of the community suggestions for a change. Hah.

 

 

... @ Meepbot - the knockback was enough. It put your target out of melee range, interrupted the 'uninterruptable' melee abilities, and because it wasn't a huge knockback, actually made 'jump backs' tougher when knocking from balconies or ledges (the target often had to back up to find LOS). If you timed your CC use well (ie. didn't blow your load all at once), resolve wasn't an issue.

[HybridCode]

As for the Assault spec: Why is nothing being done about charged bolts? There is a reason that Powertechs do so much more damage than commandos. (I have both at level 50. The Commando is more far more geared and does about the same dmg.) It's because the two ways for a Powertech to proc HIB are both instant cast. I understand the Commando is supposed to be a more ranged character, but at least give an instant move that isn't very powerful to proc HIB. I seldom proc HIB with charged bolts and I think others can agree that this needs to be in the patch.

[Jherad]

So, it's up on the PTS. Unfortunately they've decided to only invite a few guilds to copy their characters over, which means everyone else has to use whatever old characters they'd copied over in previous tests, or start fresh.

 

This of course means that the PTS is deader than a dodo, I've been unable to get a WZ to pop so far to do any testing. I'll try again tomorrow :/

 

If anyone else has had any luck, please let us know.

[ManePaleon]

I havn t found it, so can any body tell me how long the CD from our new Skill would be?

 

Thanks

[Aritok]

So i see this right. Combat medics get nerfed once again. The worst of the healers get again a nerf. Potent medicine from 15% (5 level) to 9% (3 levels). And adding a new, for a healer pointless, skill?

 

Honestky, it will become hard to spend the 31 points in combat medic soon......

[Jherad]

I havn t found it, so can any body tell me how long the CD from our new Skill would be?

 

Thanks

 

The interrupt? 12 seconds.

[oaceen]

So i see this right. Combat medics get nerfed once again. The worst of the healers get again a nerf. Potent medicine from 15% (5 level) to 9% (3 levels).

 

you do realize that 'with the same overall effect' means that it's a 3point skill that still adds up to 15%, right?

[Flying-Brian]

One of the biggest problems I have with the 1.4 changes is the itemization on the new tier of gear. It just sucks for a DPS commando.

 

1st issue, is that the Eliminator armor set does not have the Advanced Agile Mod 27 (56 aim, 34 end, 44 power) on any piece of gear. (but hey the vanguard DPS set gets 5 of them, and even the medic armor has them).

 

2nd is is that the Eliminator assault cannon is not using a reflex barrel 27 (higher aim), but the commando barrel 27 (high end).

 

3rd (and my biggest problem), is the stat imbalance for a Commando, because their mirror class (Mercenaries) are not itemized the same way. Not only does the Merc get the benefit of having the reflex barrel 27 in both their mainhand and offhand, their weapons also have the Advanced Agile Mod 27 in them.

 

Here is the difference in stats between the Commando Eliminator mainhand and offhand and the Mercenary Eliminator mainhand and offhand (adding the stats from the two together).

 

Commando: 248 Aim / 293 End / 120 Acc / 99 Crit / 98 Power

Mercenary: 256 Aim / 230 End / 258 Power / 120 Surge

 

The difference in itemization is very clear, showing how the stats for the Mercenary mainhand and offhand are better, giving a Mercenary a DPS advantage over the Commando.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Flying-Brian

[Jherad]

Yeah, I can see myself having to buy the combat medic cannon and generator instead of the eliminator stuff. At least they have surge instead of accuracy.

[Ogmind]

Yay for Kolto Residue stealth nerf. Now 3% bonus healing (down from 5%)

[ArchangelLBC]

One of the biggest problems I have with the 1.4 changes is the itemization on the new tier of gear. It just sucks for a DPS commando.

 

1st issue, is that the Eliminator armor set does not have the Advanced Agile Mod 27 (56 aim, 34 end, 44 power) on any piece of gear. (but hey the vanguard DPS set gets 5 of them, and even the medic armor has them).

 

2nd is is that the Eliminator assault cannon is not using a reflex barrel 27 (higher aim), but the commando barrel 27 (high end).

 

3rd (and my biggest problem), is the stat imbalance for a Commando, because their mirror class (Mercenaries) are not itemized the same way. Not only does the Merc get the benefit of having the reflex barrel 27 in both their mainhand and offhand, their weapons also have the Advanced Agile Mod 27 in them.

 

Here is the difference in stats between the Commando Eliminator mainhand and offhand and the Mercenary Eliminator mainhand and offhand (adding the stats from the two together).

 

Commando: 248 Aim / 293 End / 120 Acc / 99 Crit / 98 Power

Mercenary: 256 Aim / 230 End / 258 Power / 120 Surge

 

The difference in itemization is very clear, showing how the stats for the Mercenary mainhand and offhand are better, giving a Mercenary a DPS advantage over the Commando.

 

Don't know about you but I plan on spending my tokens on Combat Tech gear then. There's nothing that says you HAVE to get the eliminator stuff. And at least it seems like all the armorings are the right kind. Still you're right that it's both really annoying, and total BS compared to the Merc side.