No PvP specific stat, here's why

[heinywb]

why all the want for segregation? shouldnt ur skills seperate u from others, not ur gear. I mean seriously, how many good pvpers are really worried about some carebear with better gear that he got from raids beating him? 99 times out of 100 the difference in gear doesnt sway the outcome b/c the carebear has pvp skills.

[Ahhmyface]

I don't even know what to tell you. They are different skill sets. Anyone who does either at a high level will tell you this is a fact.

 

There are certainly players that excel at both, but there is a significant portion that don't. There are players that are at the cusp of progression raiding, but couldn't PvP their way out of a paper bag. It's because they are different skill sets.

 

You insult was nice though, because you backed it up so well.

 

Your distinction is just smoke and mirrors. Depending on how far you abstract, you can make anything the same or different.

 

Your pitiful arguments turn in on themselves. So you're saying that someone who trains to be a doctor cannot flip burgers? They are different skills, after all, right? You're only good at what you practice, right?

 

PvP/PvE specific stats simply bring a culture of exclusion, where people have difficulty exploring the game. Telling doctors they aren't qualified to flip burgers is retarded. The freedom to do either is quite clearly the best design.

[skwrl]

why all the want for segregation? shouldnt ur skills seperate u from others, not ur gear. I mean seriously, how many good pvpers are really worried about some carebear with better gear that he got from raids beating him? 99 times out of 100 the difference in gear doesnt sway the outcome b/c the carebear has pvp skills.

 

To answer your question, alot of PvP players do want distinction in their gear. They do want that Expertise stat, as a reward for putting in that time.

 

But more importantly, the real issue appears to be the flipside of your argument. Should gear obtained through PvP be equal in effectiveness against PvE opponents?

 

And again, just to reiterate, since Expertise is capped at 10%, this is far less of an issue then people are making it.

 

To Note:

 

iLvl 51 PvP Chest for Marauder:

 

776 Armor

83 Str

68 End

40 Exp

34 Pwr

 

iLvl 51 Tier 1 Chest for Marauder:

 

776 Armor

96 Str

81 End

40 Acc

34 Pwr

 

Differences of:

 

13 Str

13 End

 

That is 15% more Str and 19% more End.

 

 

 

These aren't gamebreaking stat differences people.

Edited December 19, 2011 by skwrl

[skwrl]

Your distinction is just smoke and mirrors. Depending on how far you abstract, you can make anything the same or different.

 

Your pitiful arguments turn in on themselves. So you're saying that someone who trains to be a doctor cannot flip burgers? They are different skills, after all, right? You're only good at what you practice, right?

 

PvP/PvE specific stats simply bring a culture of exclusion, where people have difficulty exploring the game. Telling doctors they aren't qualified to flip burgers is retarded. The freedom to do either is quite clearly the best design.

 

Once again, see my edit. The burger flipper thing was for a laugh.

 

"My metaphor is sound. Change the word "burger flipper" to Lawyer and it remains. The amount of time has nothing to do with it"

[Niquity]

Why would the raiders ROFLstomp anyone? If the players who prefer PvP have equally good gear obtained through PvP, they should still win because they're more experienced PvP players right?

Wouldn't you be happier if you could get equally good gear by winning at PvP?

 

Ill tell ya why they do this in short. its the easiest way to balances the headache that they make for them selves witch is pve and pvp they want to keep both sides happy.

if you take resil out then you have to make the pvp just as good at the best pve gear for its slot. doing this will make a large amount of pvers rage as they will not have a raid to raid when they can just get the same gear quicker.

 

if you don't make it as good then pvpers will start ************ because they are now forced to pve for pvp gear often ?!?! f that noise. or the pve will ***** because , oh so in so is only here for pvp gear he ant going to use it to help the guild blah blah.

 

its far easier to add a stat that makes pvp gear work best in pvp and not as good in pve hands down .

Edited December 19, 2011 by Niquity

[Corwingeorge]

not sure if srs

 

not sure if he srs too

[Ahhmyface]

No, it still makes no sense. If PvP is tuesday and Pve is wednesday, then... Then what? They are different, and the same. They are both days. They are not the same day. One always comes after the other. Neither of them are weekends.

 

You say you should get rewarded for your specific skill. Well, should you have gear that helps you vs ranged attackers and gear for melee attackers? Don't they require different skills? Maybe we should have different stats for fighting droids vs fleshies? Where should we draw the line?

 

Forget the analogy, it is wasting both our time.

 

Gear is not skill.

 

If you are good at pvp, then you are good at pvp. Why you should go to a raid, and then have a gear based penalty instead of just sucking at it... because you suck, makes no sense. Why you would be a GREAT pvper, and fail anyway, because some guy grinded his way through 5000 warzones, is completely stupid.

 

Skill vs skill. Gear vs gear. Gear should be the same in both pursuits.

[Doki]

Ill tell ya why they do this in short. its the easiest way to balances the headache that they make for them selves witch is pve and pvp they want to keep both sides happy.

if you take resil out then you have to make the pvp just as good at the best pve gear for its slot. doing this will make a large amount of pvers rage as they will not have a raid to raid when they can just get the same gear quicker.

 

if you don' make it as good then pvpers will start ************ because they are now forced to pve for pvp gear often ?!?! f that noise. or the pve will ***** because , oh so in so is only here for pvp gear he ant going to use it to help the guild blah blah.

 

its far easier to add a stat that makes pvp gear work best in pvp and not as good in pve hands down .

 

It may be "easier" buit its nowhere near "better".

 

On my end, I like decisions and systems that encourage people to try different aspects of the game, and dislike things that put up stat-walls, pay-walls, or gear-walls that discourage people from trying new things. Therein, I strongly encourage PvP gear to be useful in PvE and vice-versa -- I want the most flexibility for my character since I'm paying for the game and want to enjoy every aspect of it (and I want my friends and guildmates to do so as well)

[skwrl]

No, it still makes no sense. If PvP is tuesday and Pve is wednesday, then... Then what? They are different, and the same. They are both days. They are not the same day. One always comes after the other. Neither of them are weekends.

 

You say you should get rewarded for your specific skill. Well, should you have gear that helps you vs ranged attackers and gear for melee attackers? Don't they require different skills? Maybe we should have different stats for fighting droids vs fleshies? Where should we draw the line?

 

Forget the analogy, it is wasting both our time.

 

Gear is not skill.

 

If you are good at pvp, then you are good at pvp. Why you should go to a raid, and then have a gear based penalty instead of just sucking at it... because you suck, makes no sense. Why you would be a GREAT pvper, and fail anyway, because some guy grinded his way through 5000 warzones, is completely stupid.

 

Skill vs skill. Gear vs gear. Gear should be the same in both pursuits.

 

You are reaching. They are both activities, which require different skill sets. This is a fact. You are rewarded for your time and success in those activities.

 

As I've already pointed out, the gear is not so different that you would suck in PvE using PvP gear, and you CERTAINLY wouldn't suck in PvP gear using your PvE gear, because Expertise is capped at 10%.

 

You are exaggerating the issue to get people to agree with you. There is nothing wrong with this design. It's obvious I won't change your opinion, because lucky for me, the people who matter are of the same mind that I am.

Edited December 19, 2011 by skwrl

[Ruan]

Ill tell ya why they do this in short. its the easiest way to balances the headache that they make for them selves witch is pve and pvp they want to keep both sides happy.

if you take resil out then you have to make the pvp just as good at the best pve gear for its slot. doing this will make a large amount of pvers rage as they will not have a raid to raid when they can just get the same gear quicker.

 

if you don't make it as good then pvpers will start ************ because they are now forced to pve for pvp gear often ?!?! f that noise. or the pve will ***** because , oh so in so is only here for pvp gear he ant going to use it to help the guild blah blah.

 

its far easier to add a stat that makes pvp gear work best in pvp and not as good in pve hands down .

 

Why would anyone rage. Getting very good gear through either avenue should require an equal time investment and more importantly success.

 

Kill an internet dragon = Gear

Win PvP tournament = Gear

Gear = Gear

[Niquity]

Why would anyone rage. Getting very good gear through either avenue should require an equal time investment and more importantly success.

 

Kill an internet dragon = Gear

Win PvP tournament = Gear

Gear = Gear

 

your looking at it from a pvp point of view i am on your side i love pvp i HATE pve.

but i know people we all do you cant say you dont. the people that do not like pvp and hate pvp as much as i hate pve. if i had to pve to get the best pvp gear i would quit as for myself on the opposite end of the spectrum the pve that does not enjoy pvp will hate the fact that he cant get 25 people together to do raids. because people are all like well boss. we can just farm this for like 2 hours and get our 1 pc of gear.

[Niquity]

Why would anyone rage. Getting very good gear through either avenue should require an equal time investment and more importantly success.

 

Kill an internet dragon = Gear

Win PvP tournament = Gear

Gear = Gear

 

your looking at it from a pvp point of view i am on your side i love pvp i HATE pve.

but i know people we all do you cant say you dont. the people that do not like pvp and hate pvp as much as i hate pve. if i had to pve to get the best pvp gear i would quit as for myself on the opposite end of the spectrum the pve that does not enjoy pvp will hate the fact that he cant get 25 people together to do raids. because people are all like well boss. we can just farm this for like 2 hours and get our 1 pc of gear.

[Ahhmyface]

You are reaching. They are both activities, which require different skill sets. This is a fact. You are rewarded for your time and success in those activities.

 

As I've already pointed out, the gear is not so different that you would suck in PvE using PvP gear, and you CERTAINLY wouldn't suck in PvP gear using your PvE gear, because Expertise is capped at 10%.

 

You are exaggerating the issue to get people to agree with you. There is nothing wrong with this design. It's obvious I won't change your opinion, because lucky for me, the people who matter are of the same mind that I am.

 

The fact that the special stat is capped at 10% is a practical measure that limits this problem. I doubt anyone can complain much about anything given this situation.

 

But that's not our debate. Our debate is centered around the philosophy of pvp/pve stats and their merits. I have exaggerated nothing. Activities that require different skills can certainly be rewarded, at no point has anyone disputed this. The dispute is on HOW you are rewarded. You've offered a muddled concept of how skills and gear are the same thing, and a couple bad analogies. The lawyer and the doctor still get paid in money, regardless of their different skills.

 

If you're not interested in discussing further, that's fine too.

[VinnieDaMac]

I agree with this post 110%.

[skwrl]

The fact that the special stat is capped at 10% is a practical measure that limits this problem. I doubt anyone can complain much about anything given this situation.

 

But that's not our debate. Our debate is centered around the philosophy of pvp/pve stats and their merits. I have exaggerated nothing. Activities that require different skills can certainly be rewarded, at no point has anyone disputed this. The dispute is on HOW you are rewarded. You've offered a muddled concept of how skills and gear are the same thing, and a couple bad analogies. The lawyer and the doctor still get paid in money, regardless of their different skills.

 

If you're not interested in discussing further, that's fine too.

 

Actually, what you were arguing is that they are the same skills.

 

There isn't any dispute here. This isn't going to change, because it isn't a problem.

 

My analogy simply pointed out that these are not similar activites, just because they exist in the same game. The fact that both professions get paid money is without merit. Forget the analogies, because you appear not to get the point. Look at the facts.

 

 

You have to raid to get the best PvE gear, get over it.

[Ahhmyface]

Actually, what you were arguing is that they are the same skills.

 

There isn't any dispute here. This isn't going to change, because it isn't a problem.

 

My analogy simply pointed out that these are not similar activites, just because they exist in the same game. The fact that both professions get paid money is without merit. Forget the analogies, because you appear not to get the point. Look at the facts.

 

 

You have to raid to get the best PvE gear, get over it.

 

 

No, the fact that they are the same skill is simply tangent to the thread topic. Agreeing or disagreeing with the premise has no effect on the validity of the argument.

 

You have made a blind assertion that activity A should reward you with gear to help activity A, while activity B should reward you for activity B, with no supporting facts or arguments. We have all offered reasons why such a system doesn't make sense. An analogy is a tool for explanation, not a fact. You cannot draw conclusions from it, only useful observations. If it explains nothing, it is useless. You have spent the entirety of the thread trying to defend it and to explain it and yes, you're right, nobody gets the point.

 

"A and B are different skills" does not imply that A should reward different things than B. Period. Gear is not skill.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Ahhmyface

[Screek]

I gotta admin i didnt read all the pages.

Did so many people miss the stats page with "pvp" where you can see your exspertice stat?

Also getting an item from daily pvp quest to give you that stat for a bit? - so it is there.

 

Now the current pvp gear dont have it, and that would make sense not to give low lvl gear pvp stats since everyone needs to level anyway, and might as well use the best gear (pvp or pve)

 

Might be some lvl 50 gear that will have exspertice on it?

 

Only thing that could come to my mind was a last min call about removing exspertice, and then they "forgot" to UI and the rewards for daily pvp? hmmmm...

Edited December 19, 2011 by Screek

[Yadobo]

Farming PvP gear takes at the most a week or two of serious farming. If a player is truly as skilled as he claims to be then sacrificing a week or two of game time in order to ensure that they can compete at the top level isn't a problem.

 

In the same light, you can change the dialogue to this.

 

John: Hey man, wanna Raid that cool new awesome Dragon raid? You're super good at video games!

Toby: Nah man, I wish I could but my gear sucks so they'd just laugh at my DPS

 

Gear farming is a part of MMO's. Either way, you get the gear that you need by doing the content that you want to play. If you want to PvE then you get PvE gear by PvE'ing. If you want to PvP then you get PvP gear by PvP'ing. Simple.

[skwrl]

No, the fact that they are the same skill is simply tangent to the thread topic. Agreeing or disagreeing with the premise has no effect on the validity of the argument.

 

You have made a blind assertion that activity A should reward you with gear to help activity A, while activity B should reward you for activity B, with no supporting facts or arguments. We have all offered reasons why such a system doesn't make sense. An analogy is a tool for explanation, not a fact. You cannot draw conclusions from it, only useful observations. If it explains nothing, it is useless. You have spent the entirety of the thread trying to defend it and to explain it and yes, you're right, nobody gets the point.

 

"A and B are different skills" does not imply that A should reward different things than B. Period. Gear is not skill.

 

I don't accept your "reasons". You aren't doing the same activity, you don't get the same rewards. I don't accept you assertion that "It's all just killing pixels" as reasonable.

 

Just like you don't accept what I maintain, that because they are two completely different activities you should be getting different rewards, as reasons.

 

Don't mistake disagreement as misunderstanding.

[ZeusThunder]

I think your post is very well thought out, but speaking from vanilla-WoW experience where I was in a top raiding guild my favorite thing to do was 4-5 shot everyone with my Warlock or Hunter while wearing my tier 2 gear.

This got even more ridiculous with Burning Crusade, where I could literally kill other players on my "firelock" (term used back then) with 3 shots. It would take 4 if nothing critted. I don't remember the name of the BG, but there was a spot where my gnome could be against a wall and hard to see and I'd just tab target decimating everyone. It was easy for me and one other person to hold the flag against 6-8 other people.

This was very fun for me, but it certainly wasn't balanced at all and not fair to the other players. I don't think implementing uber-epic PvP gear that is hard to obtain like WoW has done is the solution, but something needs to be in place to avoid the above scenario.

[Cyphen]

Think what happened to Vanilla in WoW without resilience, yes you guess it right. PvE players steam rolled through Battlegrounds. Resilience like stat is a good stat, but in WoW it offers too much protection imho..

[morbidillusion]

PvP specific stats make it so that progression in PvP and PvE are separate. If the gear was "the same" then players with no PvE progression could out-gear someone with a lot and players with no PvP progression could out-gear someone with a lot.

[Husanak]

I have yet to play ANY MMO what has a PvP stat that has had it turn out well.

 

I am hopeful that Bio won't go crazy and start releasing gear with higher and higher expert stats.... almost every other MMO has proven that its a bad idea.

 

What exactly is the issue with offering PvP gear with stats = to the end game raid gear.

 

So what if Joe Shmuck is PvPing with his shiney raid gear.... if the PvP gear is = too it Joe is still going to get smacked around. At least he will still be willing to que up and compete... Joe might even cut back on his raid fetish so he can PvP more. (Or we can all complain that we want 40% PvP Resistances so that Joe will just never bother and we can be happy waling on noobs and waiting 3 hours for a que pop)

 

Really though serious question why have Exp stat at all... I would rather have a selection of PvP gear with +crit +Surg +power +acc... myself.