Suggested fixes for DPS sorc

[ISDcaptain]

here my suggestions to fix DPS sorc in order to bring it on par with PT dps and mara DPS

 

 

1. increase dmg of force lightning from 3100(avg dmg rating of sorcs) to 6500-7000 dmg since it is a 2.5-2.7s cast, PT dps does 2.2k dmg per GCD using flame burst and if you couple that with a 4.5k railshot, that is 7k in 2 GCDs, so 7000 dmg thru FL is reasonable

 

 

 

2. let chain lightning be cast thru wrath but remove the 20% dmg bonus

 

3. increase lightning strke dmg from 1500 to 2600 dmg

 

4. make TD instant cast

 

5. lower the cast time for dark heal from 2.2s to 1.2s to match healing with operatives

 

6. let wrath stack up to 3 times, meaning as in you cast FL and you get 3 stacks of wrath, so now you can proc 3 spells thru it while running around, this way the sorcerer DPS becomes more mobile and burst heavy

 

 

EDIT: or another suggestion to bring back CL thru wrath is to let wrath stack 3 times in which u hit lightning strike(with increased dmg from 1500 dmg to 2600 dmg), then get the proc of lightning storm to get CL but increase dmg of CL by 30%

Edited August 26, 2012 by ISDcaptain

[jedifather]

not to sound arrogant but sorc dps if fine where it is.....the reason that pt/mara damage is so high is that its internal damage which is not mitigated by armor..... mara/sniper are supposed to be the top dps as thats all they can do.

[Mayeh]

You forgot to ask for an "I win" button and that every other character type have their maximum hit points reduced to 5000.

[veyl]

not to sound arrogant but sorc dps if fine where it is.....the reason that pt/mara damage is so high is that its internal damage which is not mitigated by armor..... mara/sniper are supposed to be the top dps as thats all they can do.

 

You don't sound arrogant, you just sound deluded to the truth.

 

For PVE purposes, both specs are 300 dps (at minimum) behind same geared DPS classes (All campaign, etc.). Your Mara/sniper argument is completely null and void because Mercenaries are slightly behind them and well ahead of Sorcs. Originally there was supposed to be a 5% difference between "pure" classes and "support" ones, but this has gone straight out the window as clearly proven on parses // sim tests.

 

For PvP purposes, The class is completely gimped damaged wise (piss poor burst) and survivability. Coupled together, those two factors make DPS sorcerers a CRUTCH to bring into a Rated Warzone. (as proven by the teams of PT, Marauder combos)

 

You can pad numbers all you want to show your "Fine" dps, but the two classes you mentioned (and you can throw in operatives/snipers and smash spec'd Juggs) have more burst and heavy hitting abilities than the Sorcerer. All of the flexibility of the sorcerer class only sustains their life for longer than a few GCD's and also gimps their overall damage output in the process (the major flexibility only comes in a Hybrid build and is vastly subpar in the PVP field.).

 

Sorc DPS is not fine and absolutely needs a boost (Or they need to tone down everyone elses burst capability of 4600-6200 crits.).

 

You should also go look at the Class Feedback thread. There's plenty of Sorcerers who agree that the damage is subpar and consider themselves the "Glass cannon" without the actual cannon.

[jedifather]

dude if you wanna berate me cause you believe that the sorc class is broken thats fine. ill keep it mature,since you dont seem to be able to. sorc dps in pve is fine where it is (those ppl that are 300 dps behind any other same geared class are piss poer players, as sorc is middle of the pack with mara topping it and assassin dps bein at the very bottom.) pvp i can talk about cause i dont do it, because im no good at it and dont mind admitting it. what i can say is that no developer has EVER been able to balance pvp and pve (nerf one if hurts the other, same for buffs). personally my sage (mirror class in ever aspect) does about the same dps as a similar geared commando,vanguard,guardian dps, as i said their middle of the pack. you dont like this go play a FOTM class and stop asking for an ' I WIN' button,

the class that actually NEEDS a buff is the shadow/assassin as their dps is horribly low compared to the other classes so before you complain about sorc dps go and play assassin (particularly deception) at level 50.

Edited August 27, 2012 by jedifather

[warultima]

dude if you wanna berate me cause you believe that the sorc class is broken thats fine. ill keep it mature,since you dont seem to be able to. sorc dps in pve is fine where it is (those ppl that are 300 dps behind any other same geared class are piss poer players, as sorc is middle of the pack with mara topping it and assassin dps bein at the very bottom.) pvp i can talk about cause i dont do it, because im no good at it and dont mind admitting it. what i can say is that no developer has EVER been able to balance pvp and pve (nerf one if hurts the other, same for buffs). personally my sage (mirror class in ever aspect) does about the same dps as a similar geared commando,vanguard,guardian dps, as i said their middle of the pack. you dont like this go play a FOTM class and stop asking for an ' I WIN' button,

the class that actually NEEDS a buff is the shadow/assassin as their dps is horribly low compared to the other classes so before you complain about sorc dps go and play assassin (particularly deception) at level 50.

 

Actually according to SimC at stock full campaign gear.

http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign.html

 

Balance Sage/Madness Sin has the highest theoretical PvE dps potential out of all the classes parsed.

If your Sins are pulling button of the dps pile as Sins then you and/or your friends must a piss poor player.

Btw SimC get its result from optimized/highest dps "rotation" depending on spec... piss poor bads, Of course, dont know how to play and will fail to play it and thinks Sins are on the button of the list.

Edited August 27, 2012 by warultima

[jedifather]

what part of 'particularly deception' was unclear? deception/infiltration are both absolute bottom of the barrel dps no matter what you parse.

[warultima]

what part of 'particularly deception' was unclear? deception/infiltration are both absolute bottom of the barrel dps no matter what you parse.

 

So its like saying it's impossible for sins to spec madness and know how to play to dominate dps meter.

And fact is Sins CAN spec madness and dominate but no matter how sorcs spec they are still behind the best preforming dps classes/specs. Hell even the highest sorc dps spec (Lightning) is BEHIND Concealment operative (PvP stealthie spec) and Arsenal Merc.

 

No one is forcing you to spec into a crap spec and be piss poor baddies because there's option out there opened to YOUR class. Samething isnt true for sorcs however.

[Pwnzorbot]

If we have those ridiculous changes, I'd be breaking 1mil damage all the time...

This is in no way balancing sorc/sages, by buffing them. Only way to have class balancing is to nerf other classes.

[veyl]

dude if you wanna berate me cause you believe that the sorc class is broken thats fine. ill keep it mature,since you dont seem to be able to. sorc dps in pve is fine where it is (those ppl that are 300 dps behind any other same geared class are piss poer players, as sorc is middle of the pack with mara topping it and assassin dps bein at the very bottom.) pvp i can talk about cause i dont do it, because im no good at it and dont mind admitting it. what i can say is that no developer has EVER been able to balance pvp and pve (nerf one if hurts the other, same for buffs). personally my sage (mirror class in ever aspect) does about the same dps as a similar geared commando,vanguard,guardian dps, as i said their middle of the pack. you dont like this go play a FOTM class and stop asking for an ' I WIN' button,

the class that actually NEEDS a buff is the shadow/assassin as their dps is horribly low compared to the other classes so before you complain about sorc dps go and play assassin (particularly deception) at level 50.

 

I was perfectly civil saying you were deluded, you think the class is fine and it isn't. It needs to be adjusted. The issue that comes into play now is that if you nerf all of those other DPS classes to bring them down to "our level", people won't be clearing hard mode Denova because of the DPS check fights. They would have to re-tune every fight to adjust to the DPS nerfs across the board. (Which, with Biowares track record so far, isn't going to happen.)

 

What the OP said is uh... Yeah. A stretch of lunacy and I don't believe in "iwin" buttons. Tweaking yes, complete overhaul to win, no.

 

Some fixes that would -actually- fix the class for PVE and bring it up to where it should be would be these:

DPS:

-Dot damage needs to be increased across the board.

-Both Thundering Blast and Lightning strike need to be tweaked in damage (increased). Thundering Blast is ridiculously weak for a 31 point talent compared to other DPS classes 31 pointers.

-Force Issues need to be adjusted for Madness builds. (Tweaking Sith Efficacy would be the spot for this, bumping it 3% would probably be enough.)

Healing:

Dark Infusion needs its base cast time lowered to bring it in line with Rapid Scan and Kolto Injection. Both of its buddy healing classes have much shorter cast times and higher heal efficiency.

On the move heal: (( If that video that is up with the "new sorc heal" in the new warzone is accurate, they already added this.)

 

PVP fixes:

Most of the DPS fixes above would increase the threat of a Sorc/sage, but they're still in desperate need of a defensive cooldown that is actually viable and some form of burst.

Bubble in rated warzones is hilariously horrible and being so squishy is the reason why you dont see them in "serious" rated WZs.

The lack of an on the move heal (thats actually good, not resurgence) and the in-efficiency of Corruption (Infusion cast being way too long and Innervate being easily locked down) hurts the class.

 

If sorcs had a CD for either burst DPS or Defensive, it would vastly improve the playability of the class in Rateds. The only way to nerf all of those Burst classes easily would be to remove stats from their War Hero gear to bring their damage down. The fact is that Expertise bonus damage + their main stat with certain abilities makes them far more dangerous then those numbers do for Sorcs. That's where the difference is and needs adjusting.

Edited August 28, 2012 by veyl

[imraziel]

Force Storm can stun in PVP

[warultima]

Force Storm can stun in PVP

 

LoL I have never thought of that. And I just imagined it a little bit... wow smells like mad amount of QQ inc.

[CJNJ]

While I feel that our dps does need to be buffed, I do not think they will do it by buffing a certain hybrid spec...

[wreichjr]

Why don't you just go play FOTM class? Sorcs already have the best utility in the game and you are asking them to have top tier DPS along with the already top tier utility?

[adagioing]

For SimCraft (and in general) I think it's better to look at BiS dps, i.e.

 

http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

 

Keep in mind also that these results are constantly being improved with better priority lists, etc. Also this is (of course) purely single-target.

[Kayriel]

Don't know if one of my ideas would make the class op or not , but here goes :

1) instant TB when affliction or crushing darkness ( let the devs pick one ) crits , usable withing 5 seconds of the afli/CD crit , TB on a 9 second CD

2)make lighting strike apply a debuff on the target , which lasts for for 15 seconds , and stacks 5 times , that gives up to 20% more force damage on the target (the mechanic is already in the game for juggers and mercs , it just needs to be changed for sorcs a bit )

3) parasitism , heals for 0.5% when a dot HITS , instead of crits

 

These changes would increase the dmg , mobility and survivability of the class , in both PVP and PVE and my second point would give some utility to the class as well , since we would boost the dmg output of all force users out there , not just for us , so an extra incentive to take a dps sorc in an OP

[veyl]

For SimCraft (and in general) I think it's better to look at BiS dps, i.e.

 

http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

 

Keep in mind also that these results are constantly being improved with better priority lists, etc. Also this is (of course) purely single-target.

 

It's also purely never moving. I like theoretical numbers that people can *potentially* hit, but it never paints a real time picture of what you -should- hit. Does that simcraft also take into consideration bloodthirst? and where's the Marauder // DPS jugg

[GCLAN]

@Kayriel,

 

So what I'm reading is....

 

1) you want a class who already has healing capabilities to have useless self heals, that do not benefit the caster, or the team? (Because face it. We play in a fantasy world where marauders do indeed maraud, Powertechs incinerate us with their flamethrowers.)

2) instant cast on the starting burst, when we already have (assuming that you are talking about lightning, because you reference to TB,) extra 30% lightning strikes, not to mention 3% bonus to all force abilities.

 

@OP

 

Chain lightning was part of the Wrath when the game first came out. Problem is.... When a sorc gets a wrath proc, all he had to do then was... Recklessness>CL>DF. Bam, over 15k+ DPS in a single short rotation (depending if you actually hit more than two targets,) which creates an imbalance in both the PvP AND PvE world. Lots of QQ from the PURE DPS classes, that CANNOT heal. And who are getting out DPS'd by a semi-HYBRID class.

 

 

So, in conclusion....

 

Sorcerers are NOT, and should NOT be considered glass cannons. They can heal, therefore their damage, SHOULD be less than a marauder, who, shall I remind you.... Cannot heal himself (Yes, I'm aware of the petty self heals they have, and the other one. But remember, they can't just stand their and cast healing spells till they run out of force. OMG, learn something new everyday.)

 

You MAY be trying to compare them to the Mage class from wow, which may I have to remind you, CANNOT heal themselves. We sorcerers can.

 

So just play the class if you like it, QQ and reroll if you don't. We're a hybrid class. The faster you accept this fact, the faster you will learn to relove the AC you chose from lvl 10.

Edited August 31, 2012 by GCLAN

[Larry_Dallas]

You don't sound arrogant, you just sound deluded to the truth.

 

For PVE purposes, both specs are 300 dps (at minimum) behind same geared DPS classes (All campaign, etc.).

 

What? This is absolutely incorrect. Aresenal merc will edge both sorc specs, as will anni marauders, but only in single target fights (in multitarget fights, both sorc specs should smoke them) and not by anything like 300 unless you have absolutely no idea what you're doing.

[Whizzer_]

My Lightning specd Sorc is usually number 1 or number 2 in DPS in our HM EC runs, depending on how much I or our Marauder screws up. (Getting Fearful, being pushed of the tanks in the wrong direction etc.)

Keeping up Affliction on all bosses, i.e. Toth and Zorn, Firebrand and Stormcaller... is a real boost of our DPS, without that the Marauder would beat my Sorc in DPS nearly everytime.

[Ewgal]

It's also purely never moving. I like theoretical numbers that people can *potentially* hit, but it never paints a real time picture of what you -should- hit. Does that simcraft also take into consideration bloodthirst? and where's the Marauder // DPS jugg

 

The numbers aren't ops orientated, and it certainly true in ops situations skilled Sorc will beat other dps classes. However, the dps classes should be balanced better and Madness and Lightning Sorc spec need a buff to be competitive across all skill levels in all situations (ops, PvE story, PvE FP and Ops).

[Phinub]

Changes I'd make would be from a pvp dps sorc perspective, so if this throws things way out of whack for pve you know why .

 

Lightning:

- Thundering Blast: Is now an instant cast ability.

- Lightning Storm: Only lightning strike now triggers lightning storm (30% chance). Removed Chain Lightning cooldown reset. Removed 10s internal cooldown on Lightning Storm.

- Reverberating Force: Has it's place in the tree switched with Conduction.

- Conduction: In addition to current effect now also adds a 30% chance to trigger Lightning Storm with Force Lightning and Shock.

- Lightning Effusion: Switches place with Subversion in the talent tree. 35/70% chance to grant Lightning Effusion on force attack crit. Reduction of the cooldown on Force Speed removed.

 

Motivation: Basicly turns the lightning tree into a light version of the old hybrid: No FL spam or stupid aoe damage with TB being single target as opposed to deathfield. Made better force management more accessible to other specs, but nerfed it slightly to prevent infinite force pool. Switched conduction and RV to keep it out of reach from Madness and Wrath. I'm not sure if TB should be autocrit with affliction now that it's instant. These changes should result in a relatively mobile spec with some nice burst damage.

 

Madness:

- New passive skill: Unlimited Power (what! it's catchy): Wrath stacks up to 3 times. Using Crushing Darkness or Lightning Strike will consume all stacks, wrath bonus damage adds up per stack. Increase healing generated by Death Field and Parasitism by 100%. Takes Creeping Terror's place as 31pt ability.

- Devour: Removed. It's effect is added to Unlimited Power.

- Creeping Terror (2pt skill): 1 point DOT. 2nd point grants the 2s root. Takes Devours place in the skill tree.

- Haunted Dreams (2pt): Added effect, Whirlwind will not break upon damage from Affliction or Creeping Terror in the first 1.5/3s of it's duration.

 

Motivation: A bit more burst with the new 31pt ability, which i wanted to keep out of range from Lightning Barrage. Creeping Terror moved to requiring 27pts to fully benefit from it (no idea if making it 2pt is actually possible). Didn't add Crushing Darkness to Haunted Dreams due to upfront damage and possibly high DOT damage depending on wrath stacks.

 

Anyways, this is how i think this class would be better in pvp.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Phinub