An in-depth look at: Revan

[Aurbere]

If revan and malak would have defeated the republic with the star forge than the empire wouldn't need there fleets the galaxy would allready be there's.

 

It was meant to be a stealth operation. Revan and Malak went rogue and attacked the Republic on their own, using the fleet the Star Forge had built. The fleet Revan and Malak used was not even close to the size of fleet the Emperor wanted.

[Rikalonius]

The Council was trying to counter the Mandalorian agression with their peaceful stance. Remember, the Mandalorians wanted to fight Jedi. If the Jedi had stayed out of the war, it is likely the Mandalorians would have backed off. But Revan gave them what they wanted. He took the Jedi into war, a war that brought many of them to the Dark Side. Revan countered the Mandalorian agression with his own, starting his journey down the path of the Dark Side. The Council knew that this would happen. Going to war against the Mandalorians would have caused catastrophic damage to the Jedi Order.

 

The Jedi Order was wrong in punishing those who went to war, yes I agree. But I see their reason behind it. Many of the Jedi had been corrupted during the war. The Council couldn't risk a Jedi who fought in the war going Dark andkilling several of their Order. They had to clean house in order to make sure the Order was not tainted by the Dark Side.

 

That's of course purely speculation on your part, but I can hardly believe you could write it with a straight face. Canderous is clear in his commentary to the player that they would not be denied a fight. They razed world after world to provoke it. So by ignoring them the Jedi Council let those people die in order to pursue their pacifism. That makes them no better than Revan, who, as Canderous said, fortified worlds at the cost of others. Revan had to use unorthodox tactics because he was operating from an almost insurgent position. He had to break the will the of the Mandalorians to fight, which he did. He may not have had to do that, had the Council reacted to the first worlds attacked. Any maneuver by the Jedi would by any standard be considered a defensive action, since the Mandalorians attacked into the Republic.

 

The truth is the Council had grown fat and weak, just like they had under Yoda. They were unwilling to face the threat head on, and preferred to hide out in their temple, too concerned with their dogmas and their rituals; long forgetting their duty to protect the Republic.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Rikalonius

[Aurbere]

That's of course purely speculation on your part, but I can hardly believe you could write it with a straight face. Canderous is clear in his commentary to the player that they would not be denied a fight. They razed world after world to provoke it. So by ignoring them the Jedi Council let those people die in order to pursue their pacifism. That makes them no better than Revan, who, as Canderous said, fortified worlds at the cost of others. Revan had to use unorthodox tactics because he was operating from an almost insurgent position. He had to break the will the of the Mandalorians to fight, which he did. He may not have had to do that, had the Council reacted to the first worlds attacked. Any maneuver by the Jedi would by any standard be considered a defensive action, since the Mandalorians attacked into the Republic.

 

The truth is the Council had grown fat and weak, just like they had under Yoda. They were unwilling to face the threat head on, and preferred to hide out in their temple, too concerned with their dogmas and their rituals; long forgetting their duty to protect the Republic.

 

I never said they were right. I was merely specualting at the reasons for their pacifist approach.

 

And don't say the Jedi were weak under Yoda. The order was at its strongest under his leadership. But this thread isn't about Yoda. This is about Revan's actions and how he responded to situations.

[Rikalonius]

I never said they were right. I was merely specualting at the reasons for their pacifist approach.

 

And don't say the Jedi were weak under Yoda. The order was at its strongest under his leadership. But this thread isn't about Yoda. This is about Revan's actions and how he responded to situations.

 

No man is an island. You can't just willy nilly put the onus on Revan, without, as you say, considering all sides of the argument. I accept you are attempting to speculate the reasons for the Council's approach. What we do know is that the council let worlds burn in order to maintain a pacifist approach. This, to me, seems contrary to the Jedi Order's reason for being. The Jedi are not pacifists. They are monastic military order, and one of their primary tenants to is to react to aggressors. It is also to serve the Republic. So when the Senate asks you to do your job as leaders of men and take the Republic's military forces in to battle against a hyper-aggressive warrior culture enemy that is slaughtering billions of lives, I believe it is immoral to refuse.

 

The Republic, in their minds, had no choice but to fight the Mandalorians. So, without the Orders help, they suffered major defeats, as Canderous relays to you. Had Revan, and the rest of the Jedi, listened to the Order, the Republic forces would have eventually been obliterated. Then, not only would the Order then be vulnerable to direct attack by the Mandalorians, the Republic would have been open for attack by the Sith. It's a complete lose-lose situation all around. So, even with Revan and 1/3 of the order deciding to defy the Council, they were still an inferior force that had suffered major setbacks. That forced Revan to act more aggressively to win, which compromised him. Had the Council not neglected their duty, it is likely the unified order would have stood a much better chance, and Revan's corruption, along with others, would not have happened.

 

All I'm saying is, you cannot remove the Council's inaction from the equation. They are just as culpable in the resulting civil war as Revan was.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Rikalonius

[OldVengeance]

The Jedi Council refused to fight in the Mandalorian Wars at first because they sensed their was a greater threat waiting and figured by joining in the conflict they might have somehow ended up making the situation worse.

 

And they were right as it turned out. Trufhfully I think they were overcautious and it backfired. However, regardless of his motives, Revan played right into the enemy hands by defying the council, joining the war and being recklessly corrputed to the darkside and then attacking the Republic. Whether because he wanted to conquer the Republic to prepare it for the Sith Empire or if he was simply mind controlled by the Sith Emperor to do it, the destruction caused by the Jedi Civil War was mostly his fault.

Edited August 26, 2012 by OldVengeance

[MyDarkSunshine]

I understand wookieepedia is not the most reliable place, but given that Newyankalt has read the novel and seems to support what the articles say, I have to ask:

 

Actually, Revan did not delay the Empire. The Sith Emperor sent Revan and Malak to find the Star Forge. He intended to have the Star Forge complete his armada and speed his invasion up by 300 years. Destroying the Star Forge only put the Emperor back on schedule.

 

You seem very certain of this, mind if I ask what you're using as a source?

[Rayla_Felana]

Let me put it this way, the Mandalorians were the vanguard assault, they were the first wave in damaging the Republic, this was a plot by the Emperor, eventually when Revan and Alek appeared on the Empire's doorstep with a third of the Republic fleet, he brainwashed them and sent them back into Republic space and had them attack the Republic, weakening it further, if possible gain the Star Forge and speed up the invasion, it was a win-win for the Empire, either Darth Revan would be the vanguard of the invasion or he would damage the Republic even more, the Dark Wars were more like an accident and kind of the icing on the cake, although what he would have thought of a Sith lord that devoured life wherever he went is another question.

 

All of those were meant primarily to weaken the Jedi Order and the Republic, if possible gain a foothold from Darth Revan's fleet and invade from there, but Darth Revan and Darth Malak's minds were stronger willed than he thought and due to distance and Revan's convincing that he had fallen to the Dark Side due to the Wars and Malachor V, were basically plots and lucky events for the Emperor because it stopped him from revealing his empire.

 

Then things started to go awry, Revan was redeemed and led the downfall of his apprentice Malak, malak ended up dead, the Republic and Jedi Order were given a chance to breathe and the other Sith, the Triumvirate ended up getting wiped out by the Exile, who didn't only stop any threats, she re-stabilised the Republic, laid the foundations for a revived Jedi Order, then went and started a chain of events that caused the Emperor to doubt his full power and stopped him from attacking a basically on it's last legs Republic.

 

Aximand is right, originally the Emperor wasn't going to attack the Republic till three hundred years later when his fleet was completed, but when Revan and Malak turned up, he saw a chance to use the Starforge and speed up his plans(for whatever reason), after that, he realised just how weak the Republic was and was going to attack them with his incomplete fleet anyway because it was a Republic for the taking, the intervention of Revan and Surik stopped that, which ultimately led to the Treaty of Coruscant and some more breathing room, but the Republic's Special forces released Revan and that relinquished his ability to plant seeds of doubt in the Emperor's mind.

 

Just thought I'd clear that up.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Newyankalt]

"their we're brief moments-times when the emperor was intently focused on something else- when he could (revan) subvert their relationship by planting seeds in the emperors thoughts"

 

"he aumented his irrational fear of death. At every opportunity he reinforced the idea that invading the republic was reckless and dangerous"

 

Page 285 SWTOR revan

[BrandonSM]

You know what really makes me mad?

 

If Revan didnt die, that means he learned Fold Space...wut?

 

How the hell did he learn Fold Space during a whole mental battle and being driven insane by being locked up for 300 years?

 

 

Also, it violates a ton of canon according to http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fold_space

 

It was used by a mysterious species until Luke and Ben discovered them...

 

 

So either Revan is dead, or BW violated Canon.

Edited August 26, 2012 by BrandonSM

[grandmthethird]

well written OP, but i do think to dissect revan in this way is to kinda. to do a mis-service to the character. revan is the hero of his time (revan haters might not like it, but tough, he is). and his faults are only there to give him more than a one dimensional feel, revans faults are more about the needs of star wars fans and more a product of aiming the story to adults than anything else. we want dark and gritty (look at the new batman movies), we want our hero to be flawed. we have had enough of the white knight riding in rescuing the princess and they all live a happily ever after.

 

also OP you missed imo revans biggest victory for the repuclic. his offspring/legacy leading to satele. i know another vader comparison

[Aurbere]

No man is an island. You can't just willy nilly put the onus on Revan, without, as you say, considering all sides of the argument. I accept you are attempting to speculate the reasons for the Council's approach. What we do know is that the council let worlds burn in order to maintain a pacifist approach. This, to me, seems contrary to the Jedi Order's reason for being. The Jedi are not pacifists. They are monastic military order, and one of their primary tenants to is to react to aggressors. It is also to serve the Republic. So when the Senate asks you to do your job as leaders of men and take the Republic's military forces in to battle against a hyper-aggressive warrior culture enemy that is slaughtering billions of lives, I believe it is immoral to refuse.

 

The Republic, in their minds, had no choice but to fight the Mandalorians. So, without the Orders help, they suffered major defeats, as Canderous relays to you. Had Revan, and the rest of the Jedi, listened to the Order, the Republic forces would have eventually been obliterated. Then, not only would the Order then be vulnerable to direct attack by the Mandalorians, the Republic would have been open for attack by the Sith. It's a complete lose-lose situation all around. So, even with Revan and 1/3 of the order deciding to defy the Council, they were still an inferior force that had suffered major setbacks. That forced Revan to act more aggressively to win, which compromised him. Had the Council not neglected their duty, it is likely the unified order would have stood a much better chance, and Revan's corruption, along with others, would not have happened.

 

All I'm saying is, you cannot remove the Council's inaction from the equation. They are just as culpable in the resulting civil war as Revan was.

 

You are right. The Council should not have abandoned the Republic. But they were concerned about the larger threat and hoped the Republic could stop the Mandalorians on their.

Revan was right in joining the Republic, but what came after was his fault not the Councils.

[Aurbere]

I understand wookieepedia is not the most reliable place, but given that Newyankalt has read the novel and seems to support what the articles say, I have to ask:

 

 

 

You seem very certain of this, mind if I ask what you're using as a source?

 

You must remember that the book is from Revans perspective. Revan believed that his will was influencing the Emperor's plan. The Emperor's plan was to use the Star Forge to speed up his assault on a weakened Republic. When Revan and Surik confronted the Emperor, they made him doubt his fleets readiness for an invasion. If the Republic could reach him so early, who's to say that they don't bring their full force in the future? He wasn't ready.

Revan only influenced the Emperor to sign the peace treaty, but this was with the help of Meetra Surik.

[Aurbere]

You know what really makes me mad?

 

If Revan didnt die, that means he learned Fold Space...wut?

 

How the hell did he learn Fold Space during a whole mental battle and being driven insane by being locked up for 300 years?

 

 

Also, it violates a ton of canon according to http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fold_space

 

It was used by a mysterious species until Luke and Ben discovered them...

 

 

So either Revan is dead, or BW violated Canon.

 

I think Revan died and that explosion was his spirit and Force enrgy leaving his body.

[Aurbere]

"their we're brief moments-times when the emperor was intently focused on something else- when he could (revan) subvert their relationship by planting seeds in the emperors thoughts"

 

"he aumented his irrational fear of death. At every opportunity he reinforced the idea that invading the republic was reckless and dangerous"

 

Page 285 SWTOR revan

 

The Emperor was already doubting an invasion after his battle with Revan and Surik. He had to build up a larger force in case the Republic found him again. Revan really only influenced him to create a peace treaty.

[Aurbere]

well written OP, but i do think to dissect revan in this way is to kinda. to do a mis-service to the character. revan is the hero of his time (revan haters might not like it, but tough, he is). and his faults are only there to give him more than a one dimensional feel, revans faults are more about the needs of star wars fans and more a product of aiming the story to adults than anything else. we want dark and gritty (look at the new batman movies), we want our hero to be flawed. we have had enough of the white knight riding in rescuing the princess and they all live a happily ever after.

 

also OP you missed imo revans biggest victory for the repuclic. his offspring/legacy leading to satele. i know another vader comparison

 

Revan was a hero, yes. But he reacted to certain situations that hurt the galaxy more than anything.

 

I am no Revan hater. This is merely a look at Revan's actions and how they affected the galaxy. Merely for educative purposes.

[BrandonSM]

I think Revan died and that explosion was his spirit and Force enrgy leaving his body.

 

Thats what I think, but everyone believes he did Fold Space.

 

And I'm just saying Fold Space would make no sense, but if it turns to be Fold Space and he suddenly returns, BW would have violated canon. And then questions will arise if this game is canon.

[Aurbere]

Thats what I think, but everyone believes he did Fold Space.

 

And I'm just saying Fold Space would make no sense, but if it turns to be Fold Space and he suddenly returns, BW would have violated canon. And then questions will arise if this game is canon.

 

I'd much rather prefer he died. Number one, Fold Space is not a common technique. Number two, where would he learn it? It's not a technique you just pick up.

[grandmthethird]

Thats what I think, but everyone believes he did Fold Space.

 

And I'm just saying Fold Space would make no sense, but if it turns to be Fold Space and he suddenly returns, BW would have violated canon. And then questions will arise if this game is canon.

 

i'm not saying i hope revan comes back from fold space, but you are wrong about it violating canon. just because something hasn't be documented doesn't mean it never happened.

 

the romans used cement, a technology that was lost till the industrial revolution. how do you know fold space is not like that, it was known and then lost in the old republic era till luke and ben were taught it again? (tho i'm pretty sure jacen was taught it first)

 

and to say revan can't know it because we never see him being taught it, is just wrong as well. as we all know some jedi just have force techniques that they are born with, and don't need to be taught. Mr horn in I-Jedi could implant a thought into somebodys mind. luke never teaches him this, he just knows how to do it. so there is no reason fold space isn't a technique revan just know how to do. and maybe he himself didn't know he could do this, but as he was about to die. maybe it was the will of the force for him to use this dormant ability to save himself

 

anyway i'm not saying that is what happened or even that is what should have happened. i'm just saying if they want to write it they can, and they wouldn't be violating cannon if they write it cleverly

[BrandonSM]

i'm not saying i hope revan comes back from fold space, but you are wrong about it violating canon. just because something hasn't be documented doesn't mean it never happened.

 

the romans used cement, a technology that was lost till the industrial revolution. how do you know fold space is not like that, it was known and then lost in the old republic era till luke and ben were taught it again? (tho i'm pretty sure jacen was taught it first)

 

and to say revan can't know it because we never see him being taught it, is just wrong as well. as we all know some jedi just have force techniques that they are born with, and don't need to be taught. Mr horn in I-Jedi could implant a thought into somebodys mind. luke never teaches him this, he just knows how to do it. so there is no reason fold space isn't a technique revan just know how to do. and maybe he himself didn't know he could do this, but as he was about to die. maybe it was the will of the force for him to use this dormant ability to save himself

 

anyway i'm not saying that is what happened or even that is what should have happened. i'm just saying if they want to write it they can, and they wouldn't be violating cannon if they write it cleverly

 

Because it was only ever used by the Aang Ti Species. And it can't just be self-learned. Revan was imprisoned for 300 years, how could he have learned the ability?

 

 

He would have discovered that he had the ability a long time before in more dire situations.

[Aurbere]

Because it was only ever used by the Aang Ti Species. And it can't just be self-learned. Revan was imprisoned for 300 years, how could he have learned the ability?

 

 

He would have discovered that he had the ability a long time before in more dire situations.

 

Well, maybe the Emperor knew it and during their mind struggle Revan picked it up. But it's not like you could master something like Fold Space instantly.

 

This is, of course, speculation

Edited August 26, 2012 by Aurbere

[OldVengeance]

Not that I belief Revan must be alive, but if Bioware said that he did somehow learn Fold Space, it wouldn't be the biggest canon they broke so I don't really see that as a reason why he couldn't have learned it.

[Aurbere]

Not that I belief Revan must be alive, but if Bioware said that he did somehow learn Fold Space, it wouldn't be the biggest canon they broke so I don't really see that as a reason why he couldn't have learned it.

 

But that leaves the question of how he learned it. Something Bioware would have to answer.

[BrandonSM]

But that leaves the question of how he learned it. Something Bioware would have to answer.

 

Yep.

 

 

The arguement, "Born with it", would be kind of invalid Considering he's been a Force-User his entire life.

 

Even though Corran Horn was older when he realized his inborn he technique, he realized it when he first started training.

[Aurbere]

Yep.

 

 

The arguement, "Born with it", would be kind of invalid Considering he's been a Force-User his entire life.

 

Even though Corran Horn was older when he realized his inborn he technique, he realized it when he first started training.

 

Revan could have used Fold Space in multiple different situations, so "Born with it" doesn't cut it. I'm thinking he stole the technique from the Emperor during their struggle of wills. But then we have to ask how he was able to apply it. Learning something and applying it are two totally different things.

[BrandonSM]

Revan could have used Fold Space in multiple different situations, so "Born with it" doesn't cut it. I'm thinking he stole the technique from the Emperor during their struggle of wills. But then we have to ask how he was able to apply it. Learning something and applying it are two totally different things.

 

If he was able to learn the Emperor's Abilties he would have wiped the floor with the 4 Combatants sent to kill him in the Foundry.