Fardarter Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I know it is a bit late to make this statement. I think it is relevant right now with the games shift to free to play. PVP is only fun for everyone in a balanced setting. Class balance is damn near impossible to begin with so compounding that imbalance with gear imbalances is multiplicative of any imbalance that already exist in the game. PvP should reward skill. The current system rewards time. I am not suggesting people with the best gear aren't great players. Not at all. The problem with gear tiers is that they act as a barrier to new players, and the barrier only gets more and more defined as time goes one. Eventually new players will just say "screw it" and not bother playing. That is bad for everyone. All characters should be in the same gear in instanced PVP. Rewards should be rewarding for players but they shouldn't give a combat edge in instanced pvp. You can have similar rewards to whats out now the stats are just normalized in instanced pvp. This does eliminate a players ability to stack stats in PVP and that will be unpopular for sure but compared to long queues and fewer and fewer people participating I think it is a tough pill worth swallowing. Long-term, I think this is the only viable solution for instanced pvp to thrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cegwulf Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Ya your right, it is a bit late. Davakar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upzie Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) This has been discussed so many times. PvP gear is fine. If your not doing well in wz's its because your bad, not because of the gear. My main is bis geared Sin, and I finaly finished lvl'ing a jugg to 50 today, and been doing wz's most of the day in recruit gear. This was my best result. Ofc. I am not on top every game, and I can feel a difference in gear, but I am far from useless in recruit gear with taunts, interceeds cc etc. and I can put out enough dmg to justify me beeing there, TL;DR less QQ more l2p Edited August 20, 2012 by upzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grallmate Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 This has been discussed so many times. PvP gear is fine. If your not doing well in wz's its because your bad, not because of the gear. My main is bis geared Sin, and I finaly finished lvl'ing a jugg to 50 today, and been doing wz's most of the day in recruit gear. This was my best result. Ofc. I am not on top every game, and I can feel a difference in gear, but I am far from useless in recruit gear with taunts, interceeds cc etc. and I can put out enough dmg to justify me beeing there, TL;DR less QQ more l2p So I guess people can stop telling me not to PvP in my PvE gear then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeypesci Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I know it is a bit late to make this statement. I think it is relevant right now with the games shift to free to play. PVP is only fun for everyone in a balanced setting. Class balance is damn near impossible to begin with so compounding that imbalance with gear imbalances is multiplicative of any imbalance that already exist in the game. PvP should reward skill. The current system rewards time. I am not suggesting people with the best gear aren't great players. Not at all. The problem with gear tiers is that they act as a barrier to new players, and the barrier only gets more and more defined as time goes one. Eventually new players will just say "screw it" and not bother playing. That is bad for everyone. All characters should be in the same gear in instanced PVP. Rewards should be rewarding for players but they shouldn't give a combat edge in instanced pvp. You can have similar rewards to whats out now the stats are just normalized in instanced pvp. This does eliminate a players ability to stack stats in PVP and that will be unpopular for sure but compared to long queues and fewer and fewer people participating I think it is a tough pill worth swallowing. Long-term, I think this is the only viable solution for instanced pvp to thrive. Wasting your breath. I agree but half the people that post in this area don't because they probably know they'll have a tougher fight if they weren't out gearing everyone. These are the same people that thought there was nothing wrong with full BM geared 50s in 10-50 warzones and didn't want brackets. Why? So they could farm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upzie Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 So I guess people can stop telling me not to PvP in my PvE gear then? Dense. Wasting your breath. I agree but half the people that post in this area don't because they probably know they'll have a tougher fight if they weren't out gearing everyone. These are the same people that thought there was nothing wrong with full BM geared 50s in 10-50 warzones and didn't want brackets. Why? So they could farm. And yet I've had immense fun on my recruit geared jugg, and been doing well while doing it, as usual l2p issue from bad players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nilatis Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 When I first got started at release I got into the PVP in SWTOR, hardcore, hoping that they would take from Korean MMO's, but since they took from western mainstream MMO's which are basically rip-offs FPS games like Quake II Deathmatch / Capture The Flag I quit the game in a fit of rage cursing their incompetence, twice. This is my third time back, only this time I'm not touching PVP because if I want that kind of garbage I'm better of torturing myself through the abhorrence that is the WoW, EQ2, Warhammer and Rift experience. (All) game developers need to learn that if they are going to implement PVP in an MMO they have to make sure that the entire MMO revolves around the PVP framework, not add PVP as a separate framework next to the PVE framework, because you can't have two separate frameworks in unity without friction. There is no exception to this rule. When I read about Quesh for the first time before the game released I imagined that it would be a dark ash/acid-like planet with tons of end-game crafting materials which the Republic and Empire had to fight over. "Ok, so you want to equip your guild members with end-game equipment? Well, all the other guilds want to do the same, but there's limited areas and resources so you have to fight over it, in everything from 4v4 to 30v30 battles." But no, what did they do? They made Warzones, expertise (PVP gear), and tokens. In such a concept there is no need for guilds, companions, teamwork, or to even be playing on a team. They would be better off creating a 1v1 queue button with that kind of concept. Guild leaders and officers, and support classes like healers don't care about 1v1. They only care about teamwork. That is why they take on these roles in the first place. When they disappear from the game because they are rendered useless by the devs the game is left with only DPS roles and the game dies. Again, no exceptions. It doesn't work because one framework contradicts another. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeochins Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) (All) game developers need to learn that if they are going to implement PVP in an MMO they have to make sure that the entire MMO revolves around the PVP framework, not add PVP as a separate framework next to the PVE framework, because you can't have two separate frameworks in unity without friction. There is no exception to this rule. I agree with this sentiment. However, SWTOR can't change now. The game designers are too entrenched in their thinking. Unlike other professions they never admit they were wrong and continue down their narrow-minded thinking until the ship sinks. So, for now it is in SWTOR's best interest to keep PvE and PvP progression separate. Most of the ******* complaining about PvP gear are soo incredibly dense that they don't realize that without expertise they'd have to spend endless hours grinding out Hard-mode flashpoints and operations. I would like to see half of these people run a hard-mode denova every week just to not get any gear because of RNG. Heck they might even realize how much drama is attached with getting 8 people together for an operation. They might even QQ more when they're not taken to the operation because some random took "their spot". These people don't realize that PvP will become a contest of whoever had the best PvE buddies to play with. Let's face it your columi gear is absolutely no match for a Rakata or Campaign/BH geared player. People want gear not to be taken account in PvP... Well I have new for you, you're playing the wrong genre. The First-Person shooters are where you should be. But even then, they've become unlock/gun-based. Edited August 20, 2012 by Yeochins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boufsa Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Wasting your breath. I agree but half the people that post in this area don't because they probably know they'll have a tougher fight if they weren't out gearing everyone. These are the same people that thought there was nothing wrong with full BM geared 50s in 10-50 warzones and didn't want brackets. Why? So they could farm. Totally agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naplm Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 This has been discussed so many times. PvP gear is fine. If your not doing well in wz's its because your bad, not because of the gear. My main is bis geared Sin, and I finaly finished lvl'ing a jugg to 50 today, and been doing wz's most of the day in recruit gear. This was my best result. Ofc. I am not on top every game, and I can feel a difference in gear, but I am far from useless in recruit gear with taunts, interceeds cc etc. and I can put out enough dmg to justify me beeing there, TL;DR less QQ more l2p I was playing against you and on your team yesterday and I can confirm that you know what you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyuplee Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) This has been discussed so many times. PvP gear is fine. If your not doing well in wz's its because your bad, not because of the gear. My main is bis geared Sin, and I finaly finished lvl'ing a jugg to 50 today, and been doing wz's most of the day in recruit gear. This was my best result. Ofc. I am not on top every game, and I can feel a difference in gear, but I am far from useless in recruit gear with taunts, interceeds cc etc. and I can put out enough dmg to justify me beeing there, TL;DR less QQ more l2p ^ Rofl this. Majority of the "zomg pvp gear grind suck' crowd really do need to l2p. Sadly just like how human race never tend to do what needs to be done, this will never happen. I agree with this sentiment. However, SWTOR can't change now. The game designers are too entrenched in their thinking. Unlike other professions they never admit they were wrong and continue down their narrow-minded thinking until the ship sinks. . It has nothing to do with developers being entrenched in their thinking - even if they do agree with you to actually do what you're asking is basically asking them to revamp the whole game. You do realize swtor cost 300 mill to make right? It'd take another 50 million or so to actually revamp the whole framework and design the mechanic, and another 2 years or so to actually implent the design, and another 5 years to fix the bug generated by the new mechanics. They can hardly optimize their engine enough to support world pvp, and with their team gradually becoming smaller because people keep getting sacked, there is literally nothing anyone can do about anything. The best they can do is just keep rolling out flashpoints and new warzones. So what would be the point of admitting that they were wrong if they couldn't actually do anything to make amend? Honest the forum is better off without those 'omg swtor dev needs to start listening to their players" post. Because the dev actually DO listen to their players. They do what they can to fix what is broken with the amount of manpower they get - at the same they also have to maintain the company's image in the press and mainstream media as well. If anyone from bioware or EA actually step up and say so yea we were a bunch of mmo ametaurs who didn't know better so yea swtor's gonna die, then it's bye bye investors. Edited August 20, 2012 by hyuplee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestar Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 PVP is only fun for everyone in a balanced setting. Class balance is damn near impossible to begin with so compounding that imbalance with gear imbalances is multiplicative of any imbalance that already exist in the game. PvP should reward skill. The current system rewards time. I am not suggesting people with the best gear aren't great players. Not at all. The problem with gear tiers is that they act as a barrier to new players, and the barrier only gets more and more defined as time goes one. Eventually new players will just say "screw it" and not bother playing. That is bad for everyone. YES! You have a excellent point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyuplee Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) PvP should reward skill. The current system rewards time. I am not suggesting people with the best gear aren't great players. Not at all. The problem with gear tiers is that they act as a barrier to new players, and the barrier only gets more and more defined as time goes one. Eventually "Bad" players will just say "screw it" and not bother playing. That is "good" for everyone. All characters should be in the same gear in instanced PVP. Fixed it for ya. Have fun in Guild war 2. Edited August 20, 2012 by hyuplee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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