It's the "Sandbox" Stupid!

[Pandemoniac]

Sandbox would be fantastic... anything that wouldn't be a gear-fest, which is exactly what THEME PARK means.

 

I level to 50 and start doing dailies for purple mods, after purple mods I start doing HM FPs for Columi/Tionese gear, then I take my new gear and run HM Ops, in a little while I'll take my gear from HM Ops and play the upcoming nightmare ops. Finally, I'll be sitting around fleet with nothing to do but the one or two nightmare ops that come out. My gear will now be so good that everything below this level will be too boring (and what do I now have to gain from it anyway?). I will look exactly the same as everyone else around me, and my only real choice now will be to un-sub or roll another alt and start all over.

 

It IS the sandbox, stupid. That's the only thing that can be done now because of the way this game is structured. It needs more re-play value. And as for the people who say we should have seen this coming:

 

1) I didn't ever get invited into the magical Beta tests you apparently monopolized

2) I based my judgement off the idea that Bioware would make TOR at least a little like KOTOR (i.e., I assumed it would be fun and the choices I made would matter)

3) the fact that I had to choose whether to play for Republic or Empire during a time of war gave me the impression that I would actually be fighting the other side... or at least see them from time to time

 

People who want sandbox aren't stupid. We simply expected this game to at least meet the standards of single-player games that have been out for years (even console games like Red Dead Redemption and Fable II have enough sandbox to blow this game out of the water). I continue to play this game because I'm hoping against hope that things are going to start to get better soon. I love the leveling and the story, but it ends at level 50 and sandbox features are the only way to keep it going. This game started with nearly 2 million subs and now is probly around 500k. You may still worship this game, but how long do u think EA will even keep SWTOR running if the losses don't stop?

[Nastynas]

At least it had more players before the CU than this disney themepark failure called SWTOR

 

No it didn't.

[Drudenfusz]

If BioWare would have gone for the sandbox game, I am sure the game would be in a similar situation now... maybe even worse, because it would have then even less elder game content and more people complaining about it. Lets face it, some sandbox elements are neat to have, but the raiders are one of the loudest crowd there is, and they cry pretty load that'S a fail when a game can't deliver plenty of raid content for them.

[Skorz]

No it didn't.

 

My server was full of players. Why should I care if the sub numbers were 100k or 10 million as long as the community was good, game made profit for the devs and servers had plenty of players? People today seems to be obsessive with big numbers.. "game gotta have at least 5-10 million players in order to be successfull!!1111one" No, it doesn't

 

but still SWG was far more successfull in it's time and standards (Pre-CU) than this failure

Edited August 20, 2012 by Skorz

[-Slaughterhouse-]

People bought and played this game for 3 reasons:

 

1) Its a Star Wars Based MMO

 

2) They hoped that it would EVOLVE towards a super MMO, given the money, thrown at it, with sandbox features added eventually.

 

3) They shut down the other Star Wars game, and left nothing else to do , but buy this game, for Star Wars MMO players.

 

This game graphically, and story wise, rocks over SWG, but sucks horribly at just about everything else.

 

No sense of belonging, like having player cities, or player housing.

No sense of Freedom, like free flight Space, and your own customized ship, able to fly in space and the atomosphere, like SWG had.

No Guild Support like guild email, or competition between guilds, with guild ratings.

No open world pvp, where you can get there quickly, and just battle.Here everything is even, and has a goal. No huge giant battles, and no reason to have a pvp guild. No 100's vs 100's of players battles,like we had on SWG.

 

Just endless grinding for no sense of completion, and nothing to build for.

Endless cash sinks for us, and nothing, feeling of acomplishment.

 

On SWG, Getting a Full suit of Mandalorian Armor, took Years to acomplish, unless

you had a guild dedicated to helping you, and you helping them, in return.

 

Here everything is pretty much a solo experience, with help from occasional people.

You can LFG into just about anything, and crafted stuff is useless at 50.

 

What TOR needs is to add just enough sandbox to make people want to stay for years.

 

However, I'm sure that the future of gaming is only about what they can make in 6 months to a year, then

move on to next project. Face it, this culture has become too used to the upgrade or next level mentality,

and that if it doesn't get a revamp, everyone moves on.

 

So, what do we do? Wait for people to make TOR 2 or rumors of SWG 2, and we divide into 2 groups, MMORPG sandbox players, and Themepark MMO players?

 

Personally i believe, that the 2 groups can't be in the same game. The grand experiment, to get WOW players and SWG players in the same game, is doomed to fail. They want completely different goals. Sandbox MMO players, like SWG, want complexity, sense of ownership,belonging, and freedom. WOW players want ease of use, hard but fast content. Its the difference between Chess and Checkers, or people who buy trucks versus, people who buy cars. The difference between a Jeep owner, and housewife in a SUV.

 

Neither side, gets the other, and their goals are at odds with the other.

[mourasantos]

Not a single one of the things mentioned in the OP have anything to do with sandbox...stupid. Edited August 20, 2012 by mourasantos

[Ikselent]

alright, so when I think of what the devs are workin on, and various reasons people are leaving, I think of the quote from politics "It's the economy stupid!" Meaning...work on the economy instead of other issues. Well, here we are 8+ months into the game and I still cannot SIT in a chair at a cantina. I do not have chat bubbles. I cannot decorate or customise my ship in any way. Crafted items are out classed by high end pve gear. Guild ships may be on thier way but likely with the same short comings as the current ones.

 

Sandbox....sand...box....sa..

 

anyway, into the wind this rant goes

 

I swear, "sandbox" has become the new "fanboy". It's a word people just throw about to justify the changes they want in the game. Chat bubbles aren't a sandbox feature

 

Honestly, the biggest reason you can't sit in a chair in a cantina is probably because the game isn't intended to be spent in cantinas. They're a place to log out and gain Rested EXP. They aren't a social hub. We have a fleet for that. Sure, the fleet could use a little re-doing, but allowing cantinas to be social hubs is going to cut down on player interaction. Which cantina is going to be chosen? And how can it accommodate the massive number of people that would usually be in the fleet but are now in a small cantina? Guild ships also share this problem to some degree. Sure, guild ships are nifty, but then you'll only interact with people in your own guild. The game needs a large place where everyone in a levelset (especially the top end) is together.

 

Decorating your ship? Sure, I'll give you that one. That could probably afford to go in game at some point, but it's really not something that needs to happen immediately. We need content that will keep us busy for a while, not crap to place in a ship and stare at later.

 

Crafted items need to be outdone by PvE earned gear. If you can craft the best gear in the game, then you can sell the best gear in the game. Then you have people freshly hitting 50, and buying gear that puts them (equal to or better than) someone who has been doing Hard Modes and Ops at 50 for months. I can see that being valid in PvP, but not in PvE. Not at all.

[Ikselent]

People bought and played this game for 3 reasons:

 

1) Its a Star Wars Based MMO

 

2) They hoped that it would EVOLVE towards a super MMO, given the money, thrown at it, with sandbox features added eventually.

 

3) They shut down the other Star Wars game, and left nothing else to do , but buy this game, for Star Wars MMO players.

 

This game graphically, and story wise, rocks over SWG, but sucks horribly at just about everything else.

 

No sense of belonging, like having player cities, or player housing.

No sense of Freedom, like free flight Space, and your own customized ship, able to fly in space and the atomosphere, like SWG had.

No Guild Support like guild email, or competition between guilds, with guild ratings.

No open world pvp, where you can get there quickly, and just battle.Here everything is even, and has a goal. No huge giant battles, and no reason to have a pvp guild. No 100's vs 100's of players battles,like we had on SWG.

 

Just endless grinding for no sense of completion, and nothing to build for.

Endless cash sinks for us, and nothing, feeling of acomplishment.

 

On SWG, Getting a Full suit of Mandalorian Armor, took Years to acomplish, unless

you had a guild dedicated to helping you, and you helping them, in return.

 

Here everything is pretty much a solo experience, with help from occasional people.

You can LFG into just about anything, and crafted stuff is useless at 50.

 

What TOR needs is to add just enough sandbox to make people want to stay for years.

 

However, I'm sure that the future of gaming is only about what they can make in 6 months to a year, then

move on to next project. Face it, this culture has become too used to the upgrade or next level mentality,

and that if it doesn't get a revamp, everyone moves on.

 

So, what do we do? Wait for people to make TOR 2 or rumors of SWG 2, and we divide into 2 groups, MMORPG sandbox players, and Themepark MMO players?

 

Personally i believe, that the 2 groups can't be in the same game. The grand experiment, to get WOW players and SWG players in the same game, is doomed to fail. They want completely different goals. Sandbox MMO players, like SWG, want complexity, sense of ownership,belonging, and freedom. WOW players want ease of use, hard but fast content. Its the difference between Chess and Checkers, or people who buy trucks versus, people who buy cars. The difference between a Jeep owner, and housewife in a SUV.

 

Neither side, gets the other, and their goals are at odds with the other.

 

Or... The people from SWG could just accept the fact that this isn't SWG2 and they need to accept TOR for what it is, or go play another game. SWG had a happy little niche market. However, on a bigger scale, the game was a flop. It's not what the market is looking for. And it does suck that SWG was cancelled, and none of those players have a good game to call "home", but that doesn't mean that TOR needs to bend itself into being SWG2.

[Goretzu]

If BioWare would have gone for the sandbox game, I am sure the game would be in a similar situation now... maybe even worse, because it would have then even less elder game content and more people complaining about it. Lets face it, some sandbox elements are neat to have, but the raiders are one of the loudest crowd there is, and they cry pretty load that'S a fail when a game can't deliver plenty of raid content for them.

I dunno a well done sandbox is largely the way of most of the biggest selling games in general these days.

 

But it has to be well done.

 

Having said that, certainly as far as MMORPGs are concerned, the future has to be hybrid.

 

 

 

Take SWG (one of the more Sandy-MMORPGs) it had real structual and management problems, which would have ruined it almost no matter what the gameplay was like...... but add the best bits of SWTOR to it and it would have been a truly amazing game.

 

Conversely add the best sandy-bits of SWG to SWTOR (probably THE least sandy and most exteremely linear-themepark MMORPGs) and again you'd have an amazing game.

[Ubuu]

is the ability to sit in a chair too much to ask?

[Goretzu]

is the ability to sit in a chair too much to ask?

 

To be fair Warhammer Online never even got the ability to sit on the floor, even after 3 seperate attempts to impliment it in-game.

[Toweleeeie]

I agree competely. This game needs sandbox elements to survive. This game literally only has combat and nothing else to do.

 

To you nay sayers, why do sandbox games last so long? EVE is still going to strong and I am currently subbed. SWG was FORCED to shut down because of this game.

 

People are still playing UO even though it looks like ****, but you can do whatever whenever you want.

 

I cant wait for CCPs new game in Vampire The Masquerade universe. Player controlled cities and even permadeath. The game revolves around politics, deceit, and viloence. Blood is your currency.

 

That game will shut all of you up.

[Sarlegant]

Personally i believe, that the 2 groups can't be in the same game. The grand experiment, to get WOW players and SWG players in the same game, is doomed to fail. They want completely different goals. Sandbox MMO players, like SWG, want complexity, sense of ownership,belonging, and freedom. WOW players want ease of use, hard but fast content. Its the difference between Chess and Checkers, or people who buy trucks versus, people who buy cars. The difference between a Jeep owner, and housewife in a SUV.

 

Neither side, gets the other, and their goals are at odds with the other.

 

All the WoW bashing in the world won't save this game... especially incorrect bashing.

In WoW, I can fish, cook, craft, dig artifacts, chase achievements, and sit on countless chairs. I own a car and a truck... I play Chess and Checkers... and Backgammon...

 

Hardcore WoW raiders and Gladiators all still have tons of pets, mounts, achievement points, etc...

 

I'm not bashing SWToR, nor playing my 85s in WoW... but seriously, SWToR could have been better if it had any of Kotor in it...

 

Explain to me why my Guardian can't use a doublebladed lightsaber. Why can't my darkside Shadow cast lightning? My gunslinger uses cover mechanics? Sith got the sniper rifle mechanics? Mirrored Classes?

 

Sitting on chairs and chat bubbles seriously? Is that really what's gonna save SWToR?

[Cubed_Art]

I dunno a well done sandbox is largely the way of most of the biggest selling games in general these days.

 

But it has to be well done.

 

Having said that, certainly as far as MMORPGs are concerned, the future has to be hybrid.

 

 

 

Take SWG (one of the more Sandy-MMORPGs) it had real structual and management problems, which would have ruined it almost no matter what the gameplay was like...... but add the best bits of SWTOR to it and it would have been a truly amazing game.

 

Conversely add the best sandy-bits of SWG to SWTOR (probably THE least sandy and most exteremely linear-themepark MMORPGs) and again you'd have an amazing game.

 

I agree completely. As someone else said, the whole game (SWTOR) is combat, combat, and nothing but combat. What would it have hurt to even have something like Mass Effect 2 where you could collect trophies and have them show up on your ship at pre-positioned locations? That alone would have endeared it to some players.

 

Have players be able to quest for unique social gear items instead of grind social points to purchase mostly crappy gear. Having all gear be orange and having mods, armoring, enhance, and barrels drop instead of full gear. How many people want the green headset for their companions, I know I do, but there is no orange variant.

 

While I don't want the ability to drive vertically over cliffs in my speeder like SWG, a little less linear-ness wouldn't have hurt, and isolating starting areas or making planets like Balmorra and Taris completely different areas for each faction was dumb.

 

In short, it wouldn't have been too hard to implement some sand-box items, especially since the over whelming opinion of the players in Beta, that I saw, were in favor of these things. It is not that the raiding community cried the loudest, or didn't want these things. All my friends and myself raided and we all wanted customizable player housing; it is that BioWare labored wrongly under the assumption that SOE labored under, making a WoW clone equals WoW subs.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Cubed_Art

[MorgonKara]

I think you might actually be right about that.

 

If they thought people would play through the stories and then come back when there was new content the mistake was either; they haven't been able to put out new content fast enough or that the people aren't coming back after they finish. I don't think the WOW model is working TBH. People seem convinced it cannot fail, but I doubt that Bioware RPG fans really care much about raiding.

 

They need to stick to what has made them successful on other titles imho and focus more on the RPG and less on the WOW stuff. I just have never believed the WOW people will quit Warcraft to come play a fledgling raiding MMO.

Edited August 20, 2012 by MorgonKara

[Goretzu]

I agree completely. As someone else said, the whole game (SWTOR) is combat, combat, and nothing but combat. What would it have hurt to even have something like Mass Effect 2 where you could collect trophies and have them show up on your ship at pre-positioned locations? That alone would have endeared it to some players.

 

Have players be able to quest for unique social gear items instead of grind social points to purchase mostly crappy gear. Having all gear be orange and having mods, armoring, enhance, and barrels drop instead of full gear. How many people want the green headset for their companions, I know I do, but there is no orange variant.

 

While I don't want the ability to drive vertically over cliffs in my speeder like SWG, a little less linear-ness wouldn't have hurt, and isolating starting areas or making planets like Balmorra and Taris completely different areas for each faction was dumb.

 

In short, it wouldn't have been too hard to implement some sand-box items, especially since the over whelming opinion of the players in Beta, that I saw, were in favor of these things. It is not that the raiding community cried the loudest, or didn't want these things. All my friends and myself raided and we all wanted customizable player housing; it is that BioWare labored wrongly under the assumption that SOE labored under, making a WoW clone equals WoW subs.

 

Yeah, I think Blizzard realises this, which is why they are doing all they can to avoid trying to make a WoW2.

 

Whatever (if anything) beats or comes close to WoW has to be something different, not just another remake with a different skin (if anything was going to do that it would have been Rift I guess, as it provides a WoW+ type experience).

 

 

SWTOR did have some serious functional flaws as well as omissions though, you're right. I think social points, for example, were a good idea, implimented in possibly the worst way possible.

 

But being able to get more orange gear in different ways (as you say a lot of the best looking gear is green, with no orange version), player housing, customisable ships etc. etc. would have added a lot.

 

As indeed would have functional RvR (or better RvRvR or WvWvW).

[Surakis]

I can assure you if a SW MMO was made more sandboxed with extremely dynamic (O)PvP, lots of players would be playing it. We'd actually be sitting on chairs, and players could most likely role-play a whole lot better than they do in this game.

 

That game was made and I can assure you that your visions of bliss are highly over-rated.

[Alavastre]

I wouldn't consider sitting in chairs or chat bubbles to be "Sandbox". I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Surakis]

Why do you feel the need to go into every thread and try to "correct" people. You are not some supreme being. You are not above anybody else. We are all human. You act like you are the only intelligent person on this planet and your way of thinking is the only way. I got news for you. This game sold over 2 million copies. It now has ~500k people left. Maybe you should think about that and let it sink into your head. By the end of this year their wont be many people left. Call it speculation all you want, I dont care. All the "speculation" has been dead on thus far. Its called history and experience. We have had a ton of history and experience in the MMO genre. This game is following the same path as the rest of them........all the way down hill.

 

Look at Warhammer for a prime example. Yeah, it may still have an open server but its dead as a doornail and recieving no updating. This game was run and ruined by the same Jeff Hickman that is now running ToR. Open your eyes Andryah. Im not trying to insult you but you need a piece of reality. You may be intelligent but as I would say in the real world.... you dont have any street smarts. You are no better then the rest of us. So please stop with your pyscho babble and your hidden insults.

 

Why do you feel the need to go into every thread and try to "correct" people. You are not some supreme being. You are not above anybody else.

[Talon_strikes]

That game was made and I can assure you that your visions of bliss are highly over-rated.

I'm not talking about SWG. By the way, my "visions" of bliss can surely be produced at this time of life.

 

One day, I, or someone else will prove you wrong.

[Legolose]

alright, so when I think of what the devs are workin on, and various reasons people are leaving, I think of the quote from politics "It's the economy stupid!" Meaning...work on the economy instead of other issues. Well, here we are 8+ months into the game and I still cannot SIT in a chair at a cantina. I do not have chat bubbles. I cannot decorate or customise my ship in any way. Crafted items are out classed by high end pve gear. Guild ships may be on thier way but likely with the same short comings as the current ones.

 

Sandbox....sand...box....sa..

 

anyway, into the wind this rant goes

:eek:OH JESUS FREAKIN CHRIST !!! Are you joking !!! Have you ever played any other MMO out there from the beginning there is just one thing Im going to say "IT TAKES TIME"

[Blackardin]

alright, so when I think of what the devs are workin on, and various reasons people are leaving, I think of the quote from politics "It's the economy stupid!" Meaning...work on the economy instead of other issues. Well, here we are 8+ months into the game and I still cannot SIT in a chair at a cantina. I do not have chat bubbles. I cannot decorate or customise my ship in any way. Crafted items are out classed by high end pve gear. Guild ships may be on thier way but likely with the same short comings as the current ones.

 

Sandbox....sand...box....sa..

 

anyway, into the wind this rant goes

 

 

This is why you log onto a MMORPG, to sit in a chair and, erm, decorate your ship?

 

MMORPGs are adventure games. I'd rather see them not waste time on such nonsense and put out more FPs, OPs, events. If this is what a player seeks, are there not console games out there like Barbie's dress-up?

[MajikMyst]

Did you know how linear this game was and that the story wasn't that large a part of leveling before you bought the game?

 

You mean as opposed to hoping against all logic and sanity that them toting the story as the greatest thing ever would actually let you level through the game while following it?

 

Interesting... You appear to be complaining about the game being linear in the first statement, then you talk about following a story..

 

Can you name any story that is not linear?? Seriously.. Name a story that is not linear??

 

Yes, we all knew this game was going to be linear because we were following a story..

 

This isn't SWG 2.0.. People need to deal with it.. SWG was never that good and never had more than 500k subscriptions.. I am glad this game isn't like SWG..

[Goretzu]

This is why you log onto a MMORPG, to sit in a chair and, erm, decorate your ship?

 

MMORPGs are adventure games. I'd rather see them not waste time on such nonsense and put out more FPs, OPs, events. If this is what a player seeks, are there not console games out there like Barbie's dress-up?

 

How can stuff that allows your character to LIVE be "nonsense" in a MMO Role-playing Game?

 

I'm pretty sure Gandalf's first thought after killing the Balrog and levelling up wasn't "W00T!!!! excellent l00t, I'd better put this on farm!!!1111111".

 

Surely the whole point of an adventure game is to have an adventure, not min/max to jump through set hoops every day?

Edited August 20, 2012 by Goretzu

[Goretzu]

Interesting... You appear to be complaining about the game being linear in the first statement, then you talk about following a story..

 

Can you name any story that is not linear?? Seriously.. Name a story that is not linear??

 

Yes, we all knew this game was going to be linear because we were following a story..

 

This isn't SWG 2.0.. People need to deal with it.. SWG was never that good and never had more than 500k subscriptions.. I am glad this game isn't like SWG..

 

 

Any story told in a non-linear way (i.e. through flash backs - a popular example would be Pulp Fiction).

 

Or if you mean a story with genuine choices? Then something like Deathtrap Dungeon.

 

 

However SWTOR linearity isn't so much in that (story), it is in everything unfortunately.