Are the jedi right before order 66 weaker than SWTOR jedi?

[Xanikk]

I'm thinking the reason all the jedi fell so easily in during the execution of order 66 during palpatines reign is because they were vastly undertrained compared to the jedi of SWTOR/KOTORs era.

 

The main reason I think they are much weaker is because for about a thousand years these jedi had very little experience actually fighting other force users in life or death combat because the sith have been underground for so long.

 

I think the jedi of this era were soft and not combat honed. How else could they not sense within the force that their comrades the clone troopers were about to shoot them in the back?

 

Anyone disagree with my line of thinking that these jedi were vastly weaker than when the jedi that coexisted with the sith?

[Aurbere]

Actually, the PT era Order was the greatest jedi order. Second only to the post- ROTJ Order. But their only saving grace is Luke. The Jedi of the PT were trained in many different styles of combat. While they didn't have actual war experience, they were very experienced in the ways of the Force. Many of the great masters of that Order were the greatest in their field of expertise to ever exist.

 

As Yoda would say, "War's not make one great!"

 

Being a great warrior in the past does not make you a great warrior during the present. Many of the PT masters would treat the Jedi of the TOR era like children. The knowledge at the hands of the PT Jedi was the greatest collection ever assembled.

[DarknessInLight]

I'm thinking the reason all the jedi fell so easily in during the execution of order 66 during palpatines reign is because they were vastly undertrained compared to the jedi of SWTOR/KOTORs era.

 

The main reason I think they are much weaker is because for about a thousand years these jedi had very little experience actually fighting other force users in life or death combat because the sith have been underground for so long.

 

I think the jedi of this era were soft and not combat honed. How else could they not sense within the force that their comrades the clone troopers were about to shoot them in the back?

 

Anyone disagree with my line of thinking that these jedi were vastly weaker than when the jedi that coexisted with the sith?

 

Where to begin?? Its not so much that the Jedi had little or no interaction with a Force User as an enemy. They did. It just wasn't a Sith Lord.

 

At the time of Yoda's training as a Padawan, roughly 870 years BBY, the Sith were considered extinct. Darth Bane and his followers were believed killed at the Battle of Ruusan. Little did the Jedi know that this time, as before in history, Bane went into hiding and instituted the Rule of Two, insuring that the power struggles that had plagued the Sith for millenia would no longer continue to do so. From that day on, there would only be two Sith at any one time, a Master and an Apprentice.

 

The Jedi had just spent the past 5,000 years engaging in on again, off again wars against the Sith. They were trained to deal with the threat as it was. Darth Sidious changed the game. There would be no Republic vs. Sith. This time the Sith Empire would be born from the ashes of the fallen Republic, with himself as absolute ruler.

 

During the duel with Sidious in the Senate Chamber, Yoda realizes that this is a battle he cannot hope to win. His entire life, trained as a Jedi, the most powerful and influential Master in the Order, and he couldn't defeat the Darkness before him. Darth Sidious had become something terrible. Because of him and his predecessors, the Sith evolved, whereas the Jedi spent the last 1,000 years prior to the fall of the Republic preparing to fight the same enemy, only this time the enemy had gotten smarter and more cunning.

[Spetulhu]

I think the jedi of this era were soft and not combat honed. How else could they not sense within the force that their comrades the clone troopers were about to shoot them in the back?

 

As I recall clones are somewhat disturbing for force users to read even when they want to. Many almost-identical minds going in the same tracks all the time. Most of the Jedi probably shut them out deliberately. Besides, the clone troopers simply reacted to the order without any malice or hesitation - there were no strong emotions to give them away in the split second it took to raise their guns.

[EnsignSorrow]

I think the jedi of this era were soft and not combat honed. How else could they not sense within the force that their comrades the clone troopers were about to shoot them in the back?

 

Dark shroud of force energy. Yoda mentions it all the time before Vader's fall.

[grandmthethird]

2 points

 

1 why would not being trained against sith, affect them when it comes to clone's blasting them in the back

 

2 like alot of ppl, i think the way george killed off the jedi was just bad story telling, nothing more. but thats not saying i could think of a better way to have got the job done, the problem stems from knowing how the end of the film should be and having no way of changing it, then trying to make the rest of the film fit the ending and still make sense

 

(thats what happens when you write a story in reverse)

[Icebergy]

The clone betrayal could not be sensed by the Jedi because to the clones it was not a betrayal. The clones were bred to obey orders absolutely and without question. So all they were doing is following orders, and that doesn't leave an emotional ripple for the Jedi to detect.

[grandmthethird]

The clone betrayal could not be sensed by the Jedi because to the clones it was not a betrayal. The clones were bred to obey orders absolutely and without question. So all they were doing is following orders, and that doesn't leave an emotional ripple for the Jedi to detect.

 

yodas actions contradicts that. but that aside, its just really stupid that the jedi are wiped out so soundly and so quickly with no fight back at that exact moment order 66 is given, all jedi were shot in the back, none were facing their attackers to see them raise thier guns and counter it.

 

but no matter how they told that part of the story i don't think they could have really made the extermination of all the jedi make sense, not really

[BrandonSM]

There was a fight back.

 

In fact allot of Jedi fled and eventually were hunted down by Vader and the 501st

[Sniperrecon]

yodas actions contradicts that. but that aside, its just really stupid that the jedi are wiped out so soundly and so quickly with no fight back at that exact moment order 66 is given, all jedi were shot in the back, none were facing their attackers to see them raise thier guns and counter it.

 

but no matter how they told that part of the story i don't think they could have really made the extermination of all the jedi make sense, not really

 

Yoda sensed alot of Jedi dying out at once , and being as smart as he was , just put 2 and 2 together and had a moment of clarity and took out his clones.

 

Even in the movies , it shows at least 1 Jedi facing off vs the clones ( i won't even try to spell his name , but it was a master with the tall head)

 

The jedi were wiped out so soundly and quickly because Palps. was a master of deception and his plan was a master stroke. IMO the way it folded out in the movies is one of the best plot twists i've ever seen. It shows how indepth he went into his planing over the years and was just amazing in detail (the books give better detail into what all he did to get it all to work together.)

[Queen_Ultima]

While I doubt that the PT Jedi were any weaker than SWTOR, one thing that caught my mind was the fact that the Clone Wars had Padawans fighting as well as full trained Jedi, as well as (presumably) interrupting their training somewhat (since the Jedi were committed to the war, I'm only working with what I can remember from the movies, haven't seen the 3D movie/show).

 

The reason why Order 66 worked, at least purely from a cinematic point of view within RotS, was because the Jedi were up against what were often squads if not platoons of clones, all abandoning the conflict to take out the Jedi (and that's assuming it was done in combat like Ki Adi Mundi and not taken aside with complete surprise like Aalya Secura, and what they attempted to do to Yoda)

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ya no they are not weaker, PT jedi was the golden age for the jedi order(then Luke's) and really Order 66 only worked because of 2 things.

 

1. Deception

 

2. Anakin Skywalker

 

For 1, well as said the jedi were busy fighting the war and were caught completely off guard by their clone comrades(save for the very lucky ones that did survive.)

 

For 2, Anakin without him the temple raid would have been a bust.

[Aurbere]

Ya no they are not weaker, PT jedi was the golden age for the jedi order(then Luke's) and really Order 66 only worked because of 2 things.

 

1. Deception

 

2. Anakin Skywalker

 

For 1, well as said the jedi were busy fighting the war and were caught completely off guard by their clone comrades(save for the very lucky ones that did survive.)

 

For 2, Anakin without him the temple raid would have been a bust.

 

Agree with both points. To add to your second point, there were multiple Jedi Masters within the Temple. Led by Shaak Ti and Cin Drallig, the Jedi could have beaten the clones with ease. Anakin was the only reason the temple assault worked.

[Xanikk]

I understand you all have your views and think the jedi order is so much more powerful in during the last days of the old republic and all.. but can you explain why you think that? Compared to the time of SWTOR?

 

I just don't think the Jedi of the end days of the republic had enough experience in combat to really justify them being better. Wasn't there relative peace for centuries after the new sith wars ended in 1000 BBY? That could really dampen the militarism the Jedi order used to have in the millenia before.

 

Fighting force blind pirates/criminals is one thing but fighting a powerful force sensitive sith is totally another. None of these new jedi really fought force users that much outside of non-lethal sparring. There is no way they could be more skilled than SWTOR jedi.

 

I just don't see these jedi as prepared as the ones during the SWTOR era facing sith and rogue force users on a daily basis.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Xanikk

[Aximand]

I understand you all have your views and think the jedi order is so much more powerful in during the last days of the old republic and all.. but can you explain why you think that? Compared to the time of SWTOR?

 

I just don't think the Jedi of the end days of the republic had enough experience in combat to really justify them being better. Wasn't there relative peace for centuries after the new sith wars ended in 1000 BBY? That could really dampen the militarism the Jedi order used to have in the millenia before.

 

Fighting force blind pirates/criminals is one thing but fighting a powerful force sensitive sith is totally another. None of these new jedi really fought force users that much outside of non-lethal sparring. There is no way they could be more skilled than SWTOR jedi.

 

I just don't see these jedi as prepared as the ones during the SWTOR era facing sith and rogue force users on a daily basis.

 

Because its Word of God Canon? Because many of the PT Era Jedi were considered the best in the history of the entire Order? Because they had Yoda? Star Wars canon can be fun to debate, as long as you keep it to C-Canon against C-Canon, once you venture into the world of G-Canon, there is literally no wiggle room, the Canon system was set up this way deliberately, and it helps preserve the Star Wars timeline in ways few other large Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy franchises can boast (Star Trek chief among them). When it comes down to it, your opinion means nothing when discussing G-Canon facts, its a sad, cold truth, but that's just how it is. The moment George Lucas stated that the PT era was the "Golden Age" of the Jedi, all debate was rendered useless.

[Xanikk]

Because its Word of God Canon? Because many of the PT Era Jedi were considered the best in the history of the entire Order? Because they had Yoda? Star Wars canon can be fun to debate, as long as you keep it to C-Canon against C-Canon, once you venture into the world of G-Canon, there is literally no wiggle room, the Canon system was set up this way deliberately, and it helps preserve the Star Wars timeline in ways few other large Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy franchises can boast (Star Trek chief among them). When it comes down to it, your opinion means nothing when discussing G-Canon facts, its a sad, cold truth, but that's just how it is. The moment George Lucas stated that the PT era was the "Golden Age" of the Jedi, all debate was rendered useless.

 

I really hope I can live 70 years after George Lucas dies so I can see Star Wars enter the public domain. Then I can make my own movie.

 

George Lucas has a very narrow vision of his narrative and frankly, he doesn't know how to write a good story since it seems there is only absolute evil and good, and good always wins completely.

 

Seriously, it's no wonder the EU is much more loved by Star Wars fans in terms of creativity and lack of "black and white" storytelling. it lacks George Lucas' personal "touch".

Edited August 19, 2012 by Xanikk

[BrandonSM]

I really hope I can live 70 years after George Lucas dies so I can see Star Wars enter the public domain. Then I can make my own movie.

 

George Lucas has a very narrow vision of his narrative and frankly, he doesn't know how to write a good story since it seems there is only absolute evil and good, and good always wins completely.

 

Seriously, it's no wonder the EU is much more loved by Star Wars fans. it lacks George Lucas' personal "touch".

 

Lucas has a touch on the EU more than you think..

[grandmthethird]

Yoda sensed alot of Jedi dying out at once , and being as smart as he was , just put 2 and 2 together and had a moment of clarity and took out his clones.

 

Even in the movies , it shows at least 1 Jedi facing off vs the clones ( i won't even try to spell his name , but it was a master with the tall head)

 

The jedi were wiped out so soundly and quickly because Palps. was a master of deception and his plan was a master stroke. IMO the way it folded out in the movies is one of the best plot twists i've ever seen. It shows how indepth he went into his planing over the years and was just amazing in detail (the books give better detail into what all he did to get it all to work together.)

 

i'm not saying the way it happened in the movies wasn't good. it did exactly what it was sposed to, it made me feel sorry and sad for the jedi, the slow motion, the sad music, the amplified baster bolts sounds, the screams, yes when i watched it the betrayal was very obvious and very saddening.

 

i just felt the flip side of that was it made the jedi seem, well i don't want to be offensive to the jedi so i will just say they seemed less powerful than they seemed all the rest of the way through the films.

 

but i will reserve judgement till i read the book

Edited August 19, 2012 by grandmthethird

[sithdragonIE]

It wasn't about strength. It was about guile. The Jedi were politically outmaneuvered by Sidious and Anakin's flip-flop is what made it possible as well (and the power of prophecy).

While this will be as hotly debated as tastes great/less filling, Mace had beaten Palpatine. It was Anakin's turn that stopped the good guys from winning there. Yoda was also beating Palpatine, but forgot his physics when it came to compressing energy into smaller and smaller spaces. He ran because he was hurt in the fall, and i'm guessing he lost his saber too.

[Aedey]

I understand you all have your views and think the jedi order is so much more powerful in during the last days of the old republic and all.. but can you explain why you think that? Compared to the time of SWTOR?

 

I just don't think the Jedi of the end days of the republic had enough experience in combat to really justify them being better. Wasn't there relative peace for centuries after the new sith wars ended in 1000 BBY? That could really dampen the militarism the Jedi order used to have in the millenia before.

 

Fighting force blind pirates/criminals is one thing but fighting a powerful force sensitive sith is totally another. None of these new jedi really fought force users that much outside of non-lethal sparring. There is no way they could be more skilled than SWTOR jedi.

 

I just don't see these jedi as prepared as the ones during the SWTOR era facing sith and rogue force users on a daily basis.

 

It's not as if there was complete & utter no war in a few thousand years or what ever. There would have been a lot of civil wars in that time period.. & I'm sure the Jedi would have assisted in that. & there would've been battle recording & all sorts, so tactics & fighting forms shouldn't really have made a turn for the worse. That & if I remember correctly from a few books the temple did have fighting matches to train the younglings against a force opponent.

 

& really down to it if you think about it there would have been Jedi that would've turned to the dark side.. just because the Sith Empire wasn't around doesn't mean there where no angry Jedi. Anakin was turning dark before Palpatine had any real influence..

[Wolfninjajedi]

I really hope I can live 70 years after George Lucas dies so I can see Star Wars enter the public domain. Then I can make my own movie.

 

George Lucas has a very narrow vision of his narrative and frankly, he doesn't know how to write a good story since it seems there is only absolute evil and good, and good always wins completely.

 

Seriously, it's no wonder the EU is much more loved by Star Wars fans in terms of creativity and lack of "black and white" storytelling. it lacks George Lucas' personal "touch".

 

Your terrible.

[Xanikk]

Your terrible.

 

Explanation?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Explanation?

 

Well for one, you want the death of someone over an IP that he created. Why do you wish the death of someone, just to fulfill your desires? More over, its going to be a lot longer then 70 years...its more like 100 and even then Star Wars might ever not become public domain more then likely it'll just be closed off only to LA. Even then Lucas has said no more Star Wars movies, so doubt there will ever be any new ones.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Xanikk]

Well for one, you want the death of someone over an IP that he created. Why do you wish the death of someone, just to fulfill your desires? More over, its going to be a lot longer then 70 years...its more like 100 and even then Star Wars might ever not become public domain more then likely it'll just be closed off only to LA. Even then Lucas has said no more Star Wars movies, so doubt there will ever be any new ones.

 

I think you need to re-read what I said.

 

I didn't say I wished for his death rather I said I wished that I would live at least 70 years past his death. Also Lucas has no control over trademark and copyright law. It's not up to him. If it's not 70 it's 100 like you said and an author can't just say "Nobody can use this idea ever again". Like I said it's not up to him.

 

Edit: I read some info on this subject and apparently the law was only changed to 100 years to prevent mickey mouse from becoming public domain. The law was changed back in the 70s or 80s by big names such as Orrin Hatch and Ronald Reagen. Why am I not suprised...

Edited August 20, 2012 by Xanikk

[Wolfninjajedi]

I think you need to re-read what I said.

 

I didn't say I wished for his death rather I said I wished that I would live at least 70 years past his death. Also Lucas has no control over trademark and copyright law. It's not up to him. If it's not 70 it's 100 like you said and an author can't just say "Nobody can use this idea ever again". Like I said it's not up to him.

 

Edit: I read some info on this subject and apparently the law was only changed to 100 years to prevent mickey mouse from becoming public domain. The law was changed back in the 70s or 80s by big names such as Orrin Hatch and Ronald Reagen. Why am I not suprised...

 

Kinda implied it though....but I dunno about it not being up to him. The old Disney movies(the ones that Disney himself created) have never been remade or new ones have never been done. Theres been re-tellings and all sure, but nothing completely remade scene for scene and word for word.