What is a Mary-sue? *SPOILERS*

[Infinite_Burnout]

The most common complaint I've heard about the game, storywise, is that the classes are too 'Sue-ish' in nature.

 

When looking up the definition, I found this "A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional."

 

Why do people say that the class characters are Sue-ish? In my opinion, each of the classes starts out as a nobody and has to work their way up to become a character of merit.

 

What's your opinion?

[Y-Yorle]

I think the Mary-Sue factor on all class stories mainly comes from you eventually becoming extremely important to the galaxy one way or another at the end of each of the stories. Someone who is well known for their extreme skill and abilities, able to do what no one else can. Everything else throughout the story as you go (read: lv up) sometimes seems to scream "you're very VERY special".

 

Some of the stories use plot twists, personal setbacks and other tricks better then others to hide this, but from what I could tell having played through 6 of the 8 stories fully your character is always able to overcome any obstacle in his/her path and never looses in the end.

 

I think this is the reason most people seem to like the Agent story best and the Consular story worst, because the Agent story uses very good 'camouflaging tricks' and the consular story doesn't. The latter does it so bad that in your very first conversation you're already told you're so very special and strong.

 

While of course this makes the character very nice to play (feeling of one's importance), it does do away a bit with the ability to fully identify with the character which in turn causes a feeling of disbelieve making a character very uninteresting.

 

For example:

*Spoiler alert on class' endings*

 

For example being the Jedi Knight that defeats/kills (the Voice of) the Emperor, claiming the seat of Darth Thanaton on the Dark Council as Darth Nox, killing the Supreme chancellor causing Governer Saresh (from Taris) to take up that role, becoming the Wrath of the Emperor (his personal enforcer), etc.

 

*End spoiler alert*

 

However, I do think that if you're playing this game for strong, believable characters, that you're also likely to RP or at least appreciate RP and as such (partially) ignore the class stories to make your own character. I know I did on all my characters. I did however made several characters have more of a Mary-Sue factor then others purely for the sake of my legacy story, which revolves mainly around my Jedi Knight. Their increased Sue factor serves to contrast or point out the believability of my Jedi Knight, who obviously sometimes wishes he had some of their treats.

 

Anyways, just my two cents on it.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Y-Yorle

[Raiellyn]

The only character that really isn't an automatic Mary Sue would likely be the Agent, due to (Act 2 spoilers)

 

being brainwashed into complacency by the enemy.

 

 

Mary Sues lack consequences, and are often treated as "special" by the narrative. In the span of three missions, for instance, a Trooper advances from the rank of sergeant to major. And even as a sergeant, they get absolutely no punishment for talking back to their superiors beyond a slap on the wrist.

 

Likewise, a Jedi Knight can be completely, unapologetically dark-side, and everyone treats them pretty much the same, with a few comments of "concern". The Inquisitor can be snide and condescending to Sith Lords throughout their entire storyline, and they get away with it simply because they are the protagonist. I mean, sure, they were once a slave that somehow managed to rise to acceptance into the Sith Academy, but I'm sure Skotia doesn't mind all that much that you just threatened to murder him to his face.

 

Trooper- Republic's best of the best. Can back-talk a *general* with zero reprimands.

Smuggler- Snark-incarnate, but at least they regularly get attacked for it.

Consular- Special student with massive potential!

Has a one-of-a-kind ability to heal through the Force.

 

Knight- The most talented apprentice on Tython, pretty much, and the entire storyline is a contest to see how many ridiculous feats they can accomplish within the hour.

 

Bounty Hunter- Probably an exception, as just an archetypical tough-guy mercenary.

Agent- Kinda like the smuggler. Definitely one of the more low-key classes when it comes to ego.

Inquisitor- Underdog that always succeeds. The ending doubles-down on the Mary Sue factor with a completely straight face.

Warrior- Pretty much a moral-swap with the Knight, only with acts of insane cruelty instead of heroism.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Raiellyn

[Jenzali]

The thing about "Mary Sue" is that you can extend it to fill any definition you want.

 

The "original" definition, I think, was more along the lines of a character not having any meaningful flaws. For all 8 class stories, the only time this would possibly happen is if you choose it to happen through all your dialogue choices.

 

Being "special" or having excellent combat skills doesn't make you a Mary Sue. In that case, nearly every single fantasy or sci-fi hero or villain, or video game hero or protagonist would be a "Mary Sue".

 

From my personal playthroughs, the choices I made in my opinion make the player characters far from this. For example:

 

- Jedi Knight struggling against darkness. Mostly wants to help the galaxy but has temptations of power.

- Sith Warrior forming romantic attachments, even though he knows that other Sith can and will use that against you (like Malgus in The Old Republic: Deceived novel)

- Jedi Consular extremely dogmatic and religiously disciplined about following the Jedi Code. Having no concept of the "greater good" he sacrifices friendships that could be beneficial and often alienates others, nearly sacrificing himself just to follow the code to the letter. Perhaps this is nearing the lines of a Mary Sue if you consider being pure light-sided to be a lack of flaws, but going by real world moral standards there are plenty of problems with being extremely dogmatic. For the record, this storyline (overall) for me felt the most like being just a regular guy out of the other Force-using classes. Obviously, you're "special" on Tython but everywhere else people are treating you like trash and just using you for their own selfish goals (eg. Rift Alliance politicians) and you have to sort out who you can trust by using your intuition.

 

Smugger, Agent, and Bounty Hunter storylines are already non-Mary Sue material by default because they are pretty much just a regular guy with a blaster tangling up in things way too big for them to handle (haven't gotten far in the Agent storyline yet though).

Edited August 17, 2012 by Jenzali

[Ranadiel_Marius]

Mary Sue simply is a term that has come to be so overused that frequently its usage has come to simply mean "I don't like the character." I mean there certainly are characters out there that I would consider Mary Sues, but you really can't use it meaningfully in discussions these days because of how vague the term has become. Heck there are still some people out there who believe that you can only have a Mary Sue in fan fiction and if a character is in canon then they are by definition not a Mary Sue. It is more productive imo to look at the attributes that are commonly attributed to Mary Sues such as being a self insert and being flawless.

 

By those two measures I wouldn't really consider any of the class stories(even the one I hate) to be a Mary Sue. All the PCs can have flaws if you RP them that way and since there are a range of personalities I doubt you can really consider them as being self inserts except maybe for the player. I suppose there are some traits common to Mary Sues which some of the stories might also have like "being a chosen one", but really those really aren't unique to Mary Sues and are common plot devices in all of fiction.

[Mutive]

If we're using the rough "any over-idealized character is a Mary Sue", yeah, all Force using classes in the game are Mary Sues. (I'm not sure that I'd consider BH, smuggler, trooper or agent to be one. Esp. not agent. That character gets tossed around more than a hackey sack.)

 

But to be fair, this is true for virtually any PC in any game. You're always the center of the universe. You are awesome and amazing and can do no wrong. Look at other Bioware protagonists. The Warden? Definitely a Sue. (Other than maybe, maybe Brosca. But Cousland is the Sue-iest Sue out there.) Shepard? A Sue. Hawke? A Sue. Revan? The list goes on and on. You're always special, destined, fated.

 

I really rather like the game for giving four classes that don't feel tremendously Sue-like. BH can literally just be out to make a buck, as can smuggler. You are pretty much only a soldier as trooper (although admittedly a good one). And agent feels totally disposable to everyone. It's unusual for a game, where generally the "Chosen one" you get to play as JK/JC/SW/SI is closer to your PC.

[SveinEternity]

I think that if you follow strictly light or darkside then you can be considered a Mary Sue. I follow a personality for my characters what they would do. Even though they are speical they have many flaws through backstory and choice making. Heres a couple examples....

 

Verana, my Inquisator has a personality problem. She thinks Verana, Nionah (her slave name), and Darth Nox are all different people. Darth Nox is the stronger of the three. But, sometimes she makes a descion that "Verana" or "Nionah" would make. But, in reality they are all one person, one personality. Sometimes she is an angry, manipulative, witch (Nox), Sometimes she is a kind hearted merciful person. This can really interfeer with her relationships as well as dealing with issues in everyday life or as a Sith in the political world.

 

Rexla, my Cathar (soon) double Agent. She will do ANYTHING to stop the Empire and will stop at nothing to get her way. She is in love with the Republic and likes the Jedi ,but sometimes she feels as though her cover must stay intact and kills whoever is needed to be killed. She also has an anger issue and likes to fight (being a Cathar she was raised as such). This greatly interfeers with her cover and relations. She was almost spotted a couple times for being overly angry.

 

Azra ,my BH was once a Child of the Emperor. She escaped not liking being hurt everyday of her life at the age of 6. She became a Bounty Hunter and Vigilante in Rep and Imp space. She dosn't like to choose a side because she dosn't want to go against her family and friends on both. This makes her VERY indescive and has been wondering what to do and dosnt act on it.

 

Being special is ok its what flaws that balance that out that are what you need to look at.

[Malles]

A Mary Sue is, to be blunt, a super-special-awesome-can-do-no-wrong character. Always wins, always succeeds, is loved or fear by everybody, depending on the alignment. Either has absolutely no flaws or has just enough for the artist to feel justified in calling them that. The best examples I can think of off the top of my head are (preps flame shield) Superman from DC Comics, Goku from the Dragonball series, and Malfurion from Warcraft. Seriously overpowered people, in other words.

 

Are the SWTOR characters Mary Sues? Yes and no.

 

 

Smuggler and Trooper probably not. Smuggler starts getting his butt kicked nearly the moment you start. The Trooper is. He's put into the best Republic Special Forces squad in the galaxy right out of training and at a very young age (you get called kid a lot no matter how you design him) and can mouth off to any Republic official without consequence, something that has never happened in any military past or present. The Agent and Bounty Hunter are debatable; From the beginning the Agent was told she was the top of her training class and garners enough attention from top Imperials to be sent out on all kinds of "suicide" missions, and the Bounty Hunter goes from being a skilled hired thug to the most wanted man in the galaxy. But both of them take A LOT of flak from Force users; in fact, entire chapters of their stories revolve around being harassed, beaten, and even manipulated by Sith and Jedi alike.

 

Both Sith and Jedi storylines are crazy Mary Sue. You start off as the star pupil in training right from the get-go and never stop hearing about how awesome you are, only taking flak from other Force users and the occasional snarky companion (I love Vette so much). Don't even try and debate that; the Sith Warrior is specifically groomed to be an assassin, a Sith Inquisitor slave fresh from the pens knows how to cast Force Lightning, and Jedi are only modest because the Code says so.

 

 

Is that a problem? No. People play games to get out of the real world and no one wants to play a character that gets kicked around too much. Mary Sue for SWTOR characters is just good marketing. Mary Sue in RP is irritating, but justifiable. I only raise an issue when people insist I warp my characters around their and act all fawning and/or submissive. I don't even do that in real life, why would I do it here?

Edited August 18, 2012 by Malles

[ProfessorWalsh]

A Mary Sue is a character who lacks any consequences for their actions and behaviors. A Mary Sue is always right. A Mary Sue is always special, there has to be something completely unique to the character that sets them apart. A Mary Sue, when involved in an established universe, is always better than the previously established characters at their own specialty item. A Mary Sue is always loved and/or respected by the previously established characters and any character who doubts/dislikes the Mary Sue either is proven completely wrong and/or comes around in the end. Most importantly a Mary Sue must succeed and usually dies at the end of a story.

 

The first Mary Sue, originated in a work of parody as a part of an unofficial Star Trek magazine named Menagerie where fans were encouraged to send in their own Star Trek fiction. This was, of course, before the Internet. One particular author, by the name of Paula Smith who was the owner of the publication, saw a trend among the fiction sent in, and saw a number of cliches overly used. That fan then wrote a work of parody regarding a fictional character known as Ensign Mary Sue named "A Trekkie's Tale" where they combined all of those recurring themes into one character, thus the terminology was born.

 

Mary Sues can also be canonical creations the two most prevalent in recent years being Westley Crusher (of Star Trek The Next Generation) and Alice (from the Resident Evil movie franchise) though in Star Wars specifically it tends to differ from author to author. Most notably any book by Karen Traviss will feature Mary Sue versions of Mandalorians which will always be better/stronger/smarter and never called out by anyone for their hypocrisy.

 

Star Wars the Old Republic does, to some degree, have all of the player classes be Mary Sues. This includes, despite the OP's claims, the Imperial Agent. Success or failure only matters at the end, so being brainwashed at one point (which also happens to the Jedi Knight) doesn't disqualify the definition. BioWare originally had, in place, a system where companions got sick of the PC's actions and would eventually force a confrontation that would result in the permanent loss of that companion. Which gave players true consequences for their behavior, however BioWare developers thought that this was too harsh and removed them, thus instantly removing much of the value of these choices and also instantly converting every character in the game into a Mary Sue.

Edited August 18, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[ProfessorWalsh]

A Mary Sue is, to be blunt, a super-special-awesome-can-do-no-wrong character. Always wins, always succeeds, is loved or fear by everybody, depending on the alignment. Either has absolutely no flaws or has just enough for the artist to feel justified in calling them that. The best examples I can think of off the top of my head are (preps flame shield) Superman from DC Comics, Goku from the Dragonball series, and Malfurion from Warcraft. Seriously overpowered people, in other words.

 

Overpowered doesn't create a Mary Sue Malles.

 

Superman is not a Mary Sue in any way, shape, or form. A Mary Sue has nothing to do with "overpowered" that is a false definition. Superman, in particular, is certainly not loved or feared by everyone, has done wrong, and has significantly impacting character flaws though as they are realistically portrayed they are only noticed by people who actually read the comic.

 

Goku cannot really be considered a Mary Sue either. He is shown to be a flawed individual, a terrible parent, he is disliked and resented by many characters (specifically Vegeta), and he has clear weaknesses and severe lapses in tactical judgement.

 

Modern Mary Sues are:

 

Westley Crusher (Star Trek: TNG)

Mandalorians (Karen Traviss Star Wars novels)

Wolverine (Marvel Comics)

Batman (DC Comics)

Alice (Resident Evil)

[Malles]

Overpowered doesn't create a Mary Sue Malles.

 

Superman is not a Mary Sue in any way, shape, or form. A Mary Sue has nothing to do with "overpowered" that is a false definition. Superman, in particular, is certainly not loved or feared by everyone, has done wrong, and has significantly impacting character flaws though as they are realistically portrayed they are only noticed by people who actually read the comic.

 

Goku cannot really be considered a Mary Sue either. He is shown to be a flawed individual, a terrible parent, he is disliked and resented by many characters (specifically Vegeta), and he has clear weaknesses and severe lapses in tactical judgement.

 

Debatable. Overpowered characters with powers that, for lack of a better description, sound like the creator wrote down all the most awesome sounding stuff he could think of on a wall and threw darts at them to pick (like Superman had when he was first created), are Mary Sues in that they're so over-the-top amazing it defies belief. That was more of what I was thinking.

 

Modern Mary Sues are:

 

Westley Crusher (Star Trek: TNG)

Mandalorians (Karen Traviss Star Wars novels)

Wolverine (Marvel Comics)

Batman (DC Comics)

Alice (Resident Evil)

 

Batman (DC Comics)

 

Batman (DC Comics)

 

That was uncalled for. You get that filthy mouth of yours out of this thread right now, mister. You've done a great and serious wrong.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Malles

[ProfessorWalsh]

That was uncalled for. You get that filthy mouth of yours out of this thread right now, mister. You've done a great and serious wrong.

 

Hehehe doesn't make it any less true.

 

He's a genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist, inventor, engineer, forensic pathologist, psychologist, computer programmer, mechanic, scientist, ninja, with an eidetic memory. At least Superman has the excuse that he's an alien.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

Debatable. Overpowered characters with powers that, for lack of a better description, sound like the creator wrote down all the most awesome sounding stuff he could think of on a wall and threw darts at them to pick (like Superman had when he was first created), are Mary Sues in that they're so over-the-top amazing it defies belief. That was more of what I was thinking.

 

When Superman was first created, he couldn't even fly. Heck I think artillery shell fire could hurt him with his original power set. What you are thinking of is Silver Age Superman who didn't exist until at least a decade after Golden Age Superman and hasn't existed in comics since Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986. And really that is just how the Silver Age of comics was.

[Malles]

When Superman was first created, he couldn't even fly. Heck I think artillery shell fire could hurt him with his original power set. What you are thinking of is Silver Age Superman who didn't exist until at least a decade after Golden Age Superman and hasn't existed in comics since Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986. And really that is just how the Silver Age of comics was.

 

Okay, fine. Y'all caught me. I just hate Superman.

[Captain_Zone]

When Superman was first created, he couldn't even fly. Heck I think artillery shell fire could hurt him with his original power set. What you are thinking of is Silver Age Superman who didn't exist until at least a decade after Golden Age Superman and hasn't existed in comics since Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986. And really that is just how the Silver Age of comics was.

 

If you'll check more closely, you'll find that Golden Age Superman (Kal-L, Earth 2) was MORE powerful than Silver Age Superman (Kal-El, Earth 1). In Infinite Crisis, he beat Doomsday down without breaking a sweat, and only died because he was a lot older than Superboy-Prime and the Red Sun affected him faster when they all crash-landed on Mogo. When his powers first developed, it was more of an evolution as he absorbed more and more solar radiation from Earth's yellow sun. He grew steadily more and more powerful as time went on. In Crisis on Infinite Earths, he killed the Anti-Monitor with a single punch.

 

Before you start, I am NOT a Superman fan. Batman pwns him 9 times out of 10. Just wanted to clarify that.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

If you'll check more closely, you'll find that Golden Age Superman (Kal-L, Earth 2) was MORE powerful than Silver Age Superman (Kal-El, Earth 1). In Infinite Crisis, he beat Doomsday down without breaking a sweat, and only died because he was a lot older than Superboy-Prime and the Red Sun affected him faster when they all crash-landed on Mogo. When his powers first developed, it was more of an evolution as he absorbed more and more solar radiation from Earth's yellow sun. He grew steadily more and more powerful as time went on. In Crisis on Infinite Earths, he killed the Anti-Monitor with a single punch.

 

Before you start, I am NOT a Superman fan. Batman pwns him 9 times out of 10. Just wanted to clarify that.

 

.....That wasn't Silver Age Superman in the Infinite Crisis tie in you are talking about. That was Modern Age(Post Crisis) Superman. Silver Age Superman stopped existed for more than a decade before Doomsday was even created(arguably longer since I forgot about the existence of the bronze age of comics where he was powered down a bit). Silver Age Superman was the one who once towed 12 planets on a chain, had super ventriloquism, super hypnotism, and had countless one off powers.

[Karkais]

A mary sue is by definition a character who has no bad qualities, someone who seems perfect in every way. Superpowered people are not automatically part of this group, batman is certainly not one, he has plenty of weaknesses and personal problems. Edited August 19, 2012 by Karkais

[SveinEternity]

I love how this isn't even about the game anymore lol.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Hehehe doesn't make it any less true.

 

He's a genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist, inventor, engineer, forensic pathologist, psychologist, computer programmer, mechanic, scientist, ninja, with an eidetic memory. At least Superman has the excuse that he's an alien.

 

Oh don't forget that hes a master of 127 martial arts(not sure if thats true anymore with the New 52, but before that he was), and he can beat anyone with prep time.....and people call him relatable why? There are other comic characters, that are far more relatable(and actually doable) then Batman.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Spetulhu]

A mary sue is by definition a character who has no bad qualities, someone who seems perfect in every way. Superpowered people are not automatically part of this group, batman is certainly not one, he has plenty of weaknesses and personal problems.

 

And don't forget how everyone seems to adore her, and those that don't are soundly wrong and misguided. You might recognize this in the GM-PC that sometimes turns up in pen-and-paper roleplaying campaigns. That is an NPC that the GM would actually like to play and he pulls it so far that this NPC is more important than the players, more powerful, better informed and so on. And it will not die... at least not before the grand finale where the players can thank their great, powerful, honorable benefactor for sacrificing himself to defeat the great evil. Everyone else gets to live, feeling that the XP and loot they got was not actually deserved as they were mostly there to witness how awesome this NPC was.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

I love how this isn't even about the game anymore lol.

 

There were people who were wrong on the Internet. You can not allow something as trivial as being "off topic" stop the divine imperative to correct all errors on the Internet!

 

Now to nudge the discussion back to the topic of actual Mary Sues, I reccomend reading this for a look at the orgins of the term and how it has gotten to the point where there are about a thousand different definitions of it. Also has a look at some of the "Mary Sue archetypes" which exist in fiction. Fun read....oh and for those of you who aren't trapped yet that link goes to TVTropes. So be prepared to waste two hours and somehow end up on a page about rare guns in fiction if you click on it.

[losdia]

There were people who were wrong on the Internet. You can not allow something as trivial as being "off topic" stop the divine imperative to correct all errors on the Internet!

 

Now to nudge the discussion back to the topic of actual Mary Sues, I reccomend reading this for a look at the orgins of the term and how it has gotten to the point where there are about a thousand different definitions of it. Also has a look at some of the "Mary Sue archetypes" which exist in fiction. Fun read....oh and for those of you who aren't trapped yet that link goes to TVTropes. So be prepared to waste two hours and somehow end up on a page about rare guns in fiction if you click on it.

 

The core of the TvTropes definition of sue-ishness is that it is an idealized author avatar... Which is kind of the point of a player character in ANY game, but most especially an MMO. I think when people talk about the characters of TOR being Sues they're talking about a couple of different things. Firstly, they're using Sue as a generic term for a flat character with good abilities. Since there are no shortage of threads talking about LS Jedi in these terms that one is... fair-ish. Next, there is the sue as the character who is always right and that everyone agrees with. Since most people don't drag around companions who are of an opposite alignment, the cheering section quality they can give has a touch of this. Plus, about half of the story portion of the game is talking people into doing what you want them to do. Lastly, there is the most common context in which Mary Sue is invoked: a completely meaningless generic derogatory term that, despite being nearly 30 year old slang, is almost never seriously used by anyone over the age of 16. As in; "That combo/macro (that I was just owned by) is broken! Those (insert class here) are complete Mary Sues! Nerf Now!"

[SuperGrunt]

The only character that really isn't an automatic Mary Sue would likely be the Agent, due to (Act 2 spoilers)

 

being brainwashed into complacency by the enemy.

 

 

Mary Sues lack consequences, and are often treated as "special" by the narrative. In the span of three missions, for instance, a Trooper advances from the rank of sergeant to major. And even as a sergeant, they get absolutely no punishment for talking back to their superiors beyond a slap on the wrist.

 

Likewise, a Jedi Knight can be completely, unapologetically dark-side, and everyone treats them pretty much the same, with a few comments of "concern". The Inquisitor can be snide and condescending to Sith Lords throughout their entire storyline, and they get away with it simply because they are the protagonist. I mean, sure, they were once a slave that somehow managed to rise to acceptance into the Sith Academy, but I'm sure Skotia doesn't mind all that much that you just threatened to murder him to his face.

 

Trooper- Republic's best of the best. Can back-talk a *general* with zero reprimands.

Smuggler- Snark-incarnate, but at least they regularly get attacked for it.

Consular- Special student with massive potential!

Has a one-of-a-kind ability to heal through the Force.

 

Knight- The most talented apprentice on Tython, pretty much, and the entire storyline is a contest to see how many ridiculous feats they can accomplish within the hour.

 

Bounty Hunter- Probably an exception, as just an archetypical tough-guy mercenary.

Agent- Kinda like the smuggler. Definitely one of the more low-key classes when it comes to ego.

Inquisitor- Underdog that always succeeds. The ending doubles-down on the Mary Sue factor with a completely straight face.

Warrior- Pretty much a moral-swap with the Knight, only with acts of insane cruelty instead of heroism.

 

I disagree with that assessment of the Inquisitor. It completely ignores the entirety of Act 2.

 

In Act 2, the Sith Inquisitor attempts to fight Darth Thanaton, and loses. You then starts eating Force Ghosts to gain power. You do so without their consent and they start to rebel when he/she tries to fight Darth Thanaton for a second time.

 

Then in Act 3 he/she at Belsavis needs to get his/her body healed by a Rakata device. Followed up by on Voss getting his/her mind healed by Voss Mystics.

 

On Corellia you fight Darth Thanaton in an ancient Sith ritualistic battle to the death, he runs to Korriban seeking the aid of the rest of the Dark Council, only to be told ST*U fight your own battles.

 

[Ranadiel_Marius]

The core of the TvTropes definition of sue-ishness is that it is an idealized author avatar... Which is kind of the point of a player character in ANY game, but most especially an MMO. I think when people talk about the characters of TOR being Sues they're talking about a couple of different things. Firstly, they're using Sue as a generic term for a flat character with good abilities. Since there are no shortage of threads talking about LS Jedi in these terms that one is... fair-ish. Next, there is the sue as the character who is always right and that everyone agrees with. Since most people don't drag around companions who are of an opposite alignment, the cheering section quality they can give has a touch of this. Plus, about half of the story portion of the game is talking people into doing what you want them to do. Lastly, there is the most common context in which Mary Sue is invoked: a completely meaningless generic derogatory term that, despite being nearly 30 year old slang, is almost never seriously used by anyone over the age of 16. As in; "That combo/macro (that I was just owned by) is broken! Those (insert class here) are complete Mary Sues! Nerf Now!"

 

The TVTropes article on the subject presents multiple definitions of Mary Sue(13 to be precise). The one I personally use is the one under "Mary Sue as Idealized Character" although the article does bring up some problems with that definition itself.

 

As for the specific uses you put forth, the first one is the player's choice. They choose to play their Jedi as a paragon of virtue and so they have no flaws. I at least didn't feel that my LS JK was flat as I payed him as a slightly snarky do-gooder. My LS JC....maybe a little flat, but that was really how I expected him to be somewhat.

 

I can't really comment on the cheering crowd thing since I intentionally min/maxed companion affection while playing most of my characters whenever possible although there certainly where instances where my companions did disagree with my actions especially in scenes where the entire crew was present on the ship.

 

Not really too much to say about the third one you give.

 

I disagree with that assessment of the Inquisitor. It completely ignores the entirety of Act 2.

 

In Act 2, the Sith Inquisitor attempts to fight Darth Thanaton, and loses. You then starts eating Force Ghosts to gain power. You do so without their consent and they start to rebel when he/she tries to fight Darth Thanaton for a second time.

 

Then in Act 3 he/she at Belsavis needs to get his/her body healed by a Rakata device. Followed up by on Voss getting his/her mind healed by Voss Mystics.

 

On Corellia you fight Darth Thanaton in an ancient Sith ritualistic battle to the death, he runs to Korriban seeking the aid of the rest of the Dark Council, only to be told ST*U fight your own battles.

 

Personally, I sort of view the SI as an Anti-Sue, although I'm really not sure I personally would qualify that as a "Mary Sue". It is pretty much just as bad though.

[Captain_Zone]

.....That wasn't Silver Age Superman in the Infinite Crisis tie in you are talking about. That was Modern Age(Post Crisis) Superman. Silver Age Superman stopped existed for more than a decade before Doomsday was even created(arguably longer since I forgot about the existence of the bronze age of comics where he was powered down a bit). Silver Age Superman was the one who once towed 12 planets on a chain, had super ventriloquism, super hypnotism, and had countless one off powers.

 

Actually, Silver Age Superman didn't stop existing until the end of Zero Hour. That was when he and the rest of the Silver Age Heroes finished evolving into the Modern Age. The Superman of Earth 1 (Silver Age) transitioned to the New Earth created by the end of the COIE. As did most of the Heroes. Powergirl (Earth 2 Kara Zor-L) was an exception. She made it to New Earth since her Earth 1 counterpart (Supergirl) died when the Anti-Monitor blew her away. Now the only surviving Silver Age hero that is STILL the same Silver Age hero is Barry Allen (Silver Age Flash), and he spent over 20 years dead. lol