Guild Reputation is more important than gear.

[Khevar]

When my guild brings in someone else for a raid, its usually because we're short a person due to scheduling conflicts.

 

In those cases, the pug is just an entitled to the loot as the rest of us. We have a straightforward looting policy, and we brief the newcomer at the start of the raid and everyone follows it.

 

Treating the pug as a second-class citizen goes against the grain of what I find appealing in playing an MMO, which is having fun with a group of like-minded people.

[Aricori]

Communication is always key, lay out the rules beforehand so no one has any expectations that will not be met. I don't know why this concept is so hard, it's a basic rule for getting through anything in life.

 

I don't walk up to my professor and hand in what I believe he wants...I hand in what is assigned.

[zeron]

Someone is upset over being entitled to loot just because they picked you up just for the ride you got your tokens. its still very much a guild run and as you are not the majority (the pugs). This isnt anything in fact its expecting get loot that isn't loot rot in a guild run is pretty crazy. And this should be a none issue as your current guild can clear EC Hm so why arent you running in your guild unless you dont make the cut and thats your own dam fault. Edited August 13, 2012 by zeron

[Aricori]

Someone is upset over being entitled to loot just because they picked you up just for the ride you got your tokens. its still very much a guild run and as you are not the majority (the pugs). This isnt anything in fact its expecting get loot that isn't loot rot in a guild run is pretty crazy. And this should be a none issue as your current guild can clear EC Hm so why arent you running in your guild unless you dont make the cut and thats your own dam fault.

 

It simply comes down to expectations. Majority and minority do not matter as the guild that took him, needed his help. He was helpful as they completed the Op and should be entitled to loot per his efforts. If they had different expecations than he, they should have communicated it, instead of having their name dragged through the mud.

 

I wonder how some of you make it in the real world to be honest.

[Pcolapat]

Someone is upset over being entitled to loot just because they picked you up just for the ride you got your tokens. its still very much a guild run and as you are not the majority (the pugs). This isnt anything in fact its expecting get loot that isn't loot rot in a guild run is pretty crazy. And this should be a none issue as your current guild can clear EC Hm so why arent you running in your guild unless you dont make the cut and thats your own dam fault.

 

To answer a few misguided assumptions

 

1. I knew the fight and helped them down the boss. They didn't have to explain the fight to me and I didn't mess anything up. While I was not top DPS, they clearly couldn't down the boss without the eighth person. I contributed and was not along for the ride.

 

2. Yes my guild can clear HM EC and I do make the cut. I tank Kephess for our guild on my Jugg. Fulfilling that role every week forces me to pug on my merc alt..

 

3. Our guild does pug now and then and the pugs always get a fair shot at any loot that drops. If we have to pug it means we need that person to down the boss. If we down the boss then they get an opportunity to share in the rewards. That is fair.

 

4. Many of our members and most consistent raiders began as pugs. If we had mistreated them then they certainly would have never chosen to become members. My friends list overflows with former pugs that are ready to come raid with us. No pug has ever left our raid feeling mistreated. We treat them as if they are one of us. For that night, they are one of us.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Pcolapat

[Khevar]

Someone is upset over being entitled to loot just because they picked you up just for the ride you got your tokens. its still very much a guild run and as you are not the majority (the pugs). This isnt anything in fact its expecting get loot that isn't loot rot in a guild run is pretty crazy. And this should be a none issue as your current guild can clear EC Hm so why arent you running in your guild unless you dont make the cut and thats your own dam fault.

There is a difference between:

 

1. The raid leader being up front at the beginning (You don't get the MH if it drops, that's for our guild only)

and

2. The MH drops, the pug wins the roll and THEN you say, "Nope it goes to a guildie"

 

The second is underhanded and bad manners.

 

If I were invited to a HM EC, and was told #1 at the beginning, I would be 100% fine with it. Their guild, their rules. I enjoy running EC and would probably do it anyway, just for the practice. But that's not what happened in this case.

Edited August 13, 2012 by JeffKretz

[Elyssandra]

For shame...This is terribly rude TBH. If someone helps out in a raid their time is just as valuable as yours. They have as much right to loot as anyone else.

When we first got into EC HM one of the raid members brought up loot issues. His argument was that

"It may set us "back" if we allow pugs to have access to 'our' loot."

My point of view is that

1. It's discourteous.and entitled to think that someone else's time is not as valuable as ours or that they are second class as they are not permanent members in our raid group.
   
2. If they help you out this is as much 'their' loot as anyone else's so why should they not have access to the loot or expect to be treated any differently than anyone else?
   
3. None of us are that badly geared that a few stat points here or there would make that much difference anyway.
   
4. If we treat someone badly why should they want to spend time with us if we ever need a spot filled?
   

 

I would rather not belong to a group that treated a 'pug' any different than anyone else giving their time and effort to achieve something.

[Elyssandra]

We are almost at the point were we can 7 man them so its really no skin off our nose if you drop group, theres always someone else we can carry through for pieces of gear...

 

...

Asto what goes through our heads when we hold loot?

It's simple, Our guild did the work, Our guild paid the repair bills,fronted matts for stims and adrenals,We came up with the strats and honestly, We dont need the 8th person, They just turn a close kill into a gurantee.

We are gearing up for NiM EC or TFB, Honestly a pug should be grateful we're carrying them through and guranteeing them gear in just about every slot (which we don't need)

 

So your contention is that

• You can 7 man the raid but took a pug along as a favor - to "carry" them for gear. That was very kind of you I must say! Regardless after saying this you didn't give him the gear he won a loot roll for.
  
• You hold loot because only your guild did the work - the pug was presumably just twiddling his thumbs while being "carried" for gear that you did not give him when he won the loot roll.
  
• You invented the strats (really now? ^^ lol) and as such you deserve gratitude and the ability to decide what left overs they can get access to
  
• A pug should be grateful that you're carrying them since without you to help them they wouldn't see anything past Zorn and Toth anyways
  
• A pug should be grateful that they would be given access to loot leftovers that your guildmates don't need
  

 

Can you spell entitled for us? ^^ How about discourteous? Or greedy?

 

How about you just raid 7 man and stop doing pugs these favors in the future?

[drob]

Wow That just blows my mind. i mean seriously after u rolled? our guilds policy is set and we all agree by it. crafting mats are for us that is not negotiable. but u can roll on any campaign piece you want. if you get it great but from then on don't roll for any more campaign pieces. we try to spread the loot out so nobody is a loot whore.

[Projawa]

It seems this thread can be summed up as: the guild hosting the run has the right to use whatever restrictive loot rules they want as long as they make the rules clear to all participants BEFORE the run begins and they abide by their own rules.

 

It's that simple.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Projawa

[NotRonin]

The mainhand/offhand is something that cannot be obtained from BH comm, which is why most PUG will want it over other campaign gears. Since the offhand barrel is exactly the same as the mainhand for a merc, and the raid leader should offer the offhand to the PuG, and reserve the mainhand for the guild.

 

On the flip side, when you're a PuG for a guild that killed HM Kephess for the first time, don't roll for the main hand. That will put the raid leader into an impossible position. While they may say 'roll on anything you like', having a PuG winning the main hand on their first kill will seriously darken the mood for their first victory.

[Chaqen]

 

Asto what goes through our heads when we hold loot?

It's simple, Our guild did the work, Our guild paid the repair bills,fronted matts for stims and adrenals,We came up with the strats and honestly, We dont need the 8th person, They just turn a close kill into a gurantee.

We are gearing up for NiM EC or TFB, Honestly a pug should be grateful we're carrying them through and guranteeing them gear in just about every slot (which we don't need)

I lol at the part in red, if your guild was one of the first guilds that cleared the content and came up with working strats that are currently used by everyone (only so many ways to skin a cat); no one should be needing anything in HM EC anymore, unless you are gearing up a new recruit, or have a very large rotating roster (which i highly doubt if you came up with the strats all on your own).

 

But i agree with the general census that it is up to the guild to state their rules before starting the raid, and the pugs choice to agree with them or save their lockout, and the majority of people i think that play could do HM EC, maybe not with their respective guilds for one reason or another (usually bad raid leaders, or tanks (ec is all about tanks not *********** up)), people that still feel very special about Hm EC, and very delusional in the fact that it is a challenging raid.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Chaqen

[Karasuko]

It seems this thread can be summed up as: the guild hosting the run has the right to use whatever restrictive loot rules they want as long as they make the rules clear to all participants BEFORE the run begins and they abide by their own rules.

 

It's that simple.

 

Bingo thats exactly what I've been trying to say all along.

[macumba]

I think the only problem is that this was not communicated before the raid started.

other than that, its true merc's and gunslingers have the benefit over other classes that they can mod the offhand drop for their main hand.

 

the story could have also gone like this:

 

lf 1 ranged denova 2nd boss, the guild downs the boss. a tank wins the roll but it is for second, but the raid leader decides "why not give it to the random he can put the mods in his main hand and will benefit much more from this"

 

during the progression through denova we gave the offhand to all mercs first because of that.

 

even though the content is easy, the guild did wipe a few times or even evenings to hammer out their strategy which led them to kill him safely, after that they compensated with someone from outside because they knew they are that good that they can even compensate if someone plays bad.

 

by getting a kill with a guild that worked towards the kill, you get that kill without having worked towards that. you go, you kill, how long the guild wiped to achieve that, you don't know and obviously you might not even care.

 

their only fault is that they did not tell you before.

[Atramar]

they have their right to do what ever they want. it's also ur right not to go with them again (that's what I would do).

 

I'd never to such a thing to a pug member who came to fill up the spot, we try to be nice and helpfull to people, and it pays off. often on GF daily, I hear 'oh, cool, I love playing with ur guild' and it's nice thing to hear.

Some preffer other reputation like 'oh noes, it's those muppets again, this is going to be a pain', it's their own choice.

[Pcolapat]

Loot rules is not what this was about. What this was about is that they told me to roll and I won the roll, then they decided to give the guildy the gear anyway. It is their guild run, it was on master looter, so technically they can do that, but it isn't right.

 

It is like a judge telling a defendant that he will be tried by jury and when the jury finds the defendant not guilty, the judge passes sentence anyway. You may not know this, but a judge can do that, it is within his power and authority to do so, but since a judge is an elected official and his election depends on his reputation they almost never do. In fact they never do, they would almost certainly never be a judge again.

 

What is right or wrong in situations like this depends solely on the expectations set fourth before the raid begins. If I had been given the impression that I could actually have a shot at any of the loot that drops then that is what should have occurred. If the guild told me to roll on the loot, which they did, the expectation that I would actually get the loot if I won the roll is there. I did win the roll and all of a sudden the rules changed. That guild placed more value in that loot drop than they put into their own reputation as a guild. That is what this thread is about.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Pcolapat

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Telling you after you won is pretty BS.

We have this simple rule for pugs for our HM EC runs

"upon entering this operation you have agreed to pass on MH/OH and any campaign pieces. Anything else is up for grabs."

We have yet to have someone drop group and we have had pugs walk away with 2-3 pieces in the past.

 

Whether someone is a PUG or not, they are joining the OP and should have every right to roll on stuff they need as an upgrade. The only exception I would make to this, is if a guildy was looking for a specific drop, and it was mentioned that if this dropped, it was his before the start of the run.

 

The guild that pulled this crap should be called out in general, letting everyone know that if you do an ops with them, you do it at the risk of being screwed over.

[Russkiier]

Loot rules is not what this was about. What this was about is that they told me to roll and I won the roll, then they decided to give the guildy the gear anyway. It is their guild run, it was on master looter, so technically they can do that, but it isn't right.

 

It is like a judge telling a defendant that he will be tried by jury and when the jury finds the defendant not guilty, the judge passes sentence anyway. You may not know this, but a judge can do that, it is within his power and authority to do so, but since a judge is an elected official and his election depends on his reputation they almost never do.

 

What is right or wrong in situations like this depends solely on the expectations set fourth before the raid begins. If I had been given the impression that I could actually have a shot at any of the loot that drops then that is what should have occurred. If the guild told me to roll on the loot, which they did, the expectation that I would actually get the loot if I won the roll is there. I did win the roll and all of a sudden the rules changed. That guild placed more value in that loot drop than they put into their own reputation as a guild. That is what this thread is about.

 

Well said and I completely agree. I hope their reputation has been tarnished because they acted very immaturely and dishonestly.

[ScarletBlaze]

Loot rules is not what this was about. What this was about is that they told me to roll and I won the roll, then they decided to give the guildy the gear anyway. It is their guild run, it was on master looter, so technically they can do that, but it isn't right.

 

It is like a judge telling a defendant that he will be tried by jury and when the jury finds the defendant not guilty, the judge passes sentence anyway. You may not know this, but a judge can do that, it is within his power and authority to do so, but since a judge is an elected official and his election depends on his reputation they almost never do.

 

What is right or wrong in situations like this depends solely on the expectations set fourth before the raid begins. If I had been given the impression that I could actually have a shot at any of the loot that drops then that is what should have occurred. If the guild told me to roll on the loot, which they did, the expectation that I would actually get the loot if I won the roll is there. I did win the roll and all of a sudden the rules changed. That guild placed more value in that loot drop than they put into their own reputation as a guild. That is what this thread is about.

 

Honestly for them to tell you can roll on loot and then all of sudden when you won they change their rules sounds to me like lying. (at least from how I perceive it)

Edited August 15, 2012 by ScarletBlaze