Clearing up the Force.

[liammozz]

So if the Son is the embodiment of the Dark Side, how come he wanted to take over the galaxy? If Light and Dark are supposed to co-exist in peace, how come the Son attempted to kill his off of Mortis? Light and Dark cannot co-exist in peace. Look at Sidious, would you want the true embodiment of the Dark Side running around? I wouldn't, and apparently GL doesn't either. Hence, the ending of ROTJ.

 

the son acted how he was treated, if you called something enough you act like it, mortis him self said it was his fault for treating him the way he did

 

and the empire lost because the good guys always win in the films, there was about 50 fluke things that happened in the films that gave them the edge take R2-D2 for example if anything happened to that droid the rebs would of stood no chance in the real world the rebellion would of been wiped off the face of the galaxy without ever getting a foot hold the imperial army was to big and powerful spanning an entire galaxy bringing planets like tattoine under there grip something the republic was never able to do

[grandmthethird]

I don't really care for the throne of balance thing. It goes against all G-canon sources describing the Force. Their view of the Force is wrong if we look at G-canon. And if we look at them. They have no real knowledge of the Force. They don't really know what they are talking about. They speak of the Force as if it is some sort of sentient human when it is not. The Force is the guiding spirit of the galaxy. Seeking peace and traquility. When the Dark Side rises, the Force seeks ways to remove it and create peace. Light and Dark cannot co-exist peacefully. Dark Side seeks destruction, to destroy the Force. Would you live with a psychopathic killer?

 

so what this comes down to is, GLs star wars vs EU star wars.

 

as much as i like the 6 films. i don't consider them the be all and end all. star wars is an ever evolving and expanding franchise. and i consider the books as much a part of star wars lore as anything. imo the throne of balance is the new direction of the story and it will definitely be a big feature of future books

[Aurbere]

a untrained force user would be the prime case study to see the force used with no outside influence in its natural habitat its be best example on what the force truly represents

 

am sorry but destroying the sith empire and allying its self with the republic in a all out war is not very parasitic and is grabbing power the jedi aren't as squeaky clean as you like to make them out

 

1. That is survival. Even Jedi go to extremes to survive, but only under the worst of circumstances.

 

2. The Jedi uphold peace. The Republic is the main government of the galaxy and it created the peace. The Sith seek to destroy both Republic and Jedi. The logical course of action is to join the Republic to uphold the peace and defeat the Sith.

[Aurbere]

the son acted how he was treated, if you called something enough you act like it, mortis him self said it was his fault for treating him the way he did

 

and the empire lost because the good guys always win in the films, there was about 50 fluke things that happened in the films that gave them the edge take R2-D2 for example if anything happened to that droid the rebs would of stood no chance in the real world the rebellion would of been wiped off the face of the galaxy without ever getting a foot hold the imperial army was to big and powerful spanning an entire galaxy bringing planets like tattoine under there grip something the republic was never able to do

 

1. It's in his nature to kill. That is the Dark Side: Death and Destruction.

 

2. Yes the good guys won. Good thing too. Do you want the most powerful Sith Lord in history ruling with an iron fist? And the Force was guiding the rebels because the Jedi were pretty much out of commission, with the exception of Obi-Wan and Yoda who trained Luke.

 

3. Are you saying that the Empire was a good thing? If so, I don't want to discuss anything with you in this thread.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

so what this comes down to is, GLs star wars vs EU star wars.

 

as much as i like the 6 films. i don't consider them the be all and end all. star wars is an ever evolving and expanding franchise. and i consider the books as much a part of star wars lore as anything. imo the throne of balance is the new direction of the story and it will definitely be a big feature of future books

 

The books are a part of SW lore, but they are a lower level in canon then the movies.

 

Ask yourself something first. If balance is light and dark in co-existence, would you want to live with someone who would kill you without a second thought? That's the Dark Side.

[liammozz]

1. That is survival. Even Jedi go to extremes to survive, but only under the worst of circumstances.

 

2. The Jedi uphold peace. The Republic is the main government of the galaxy and it created the peace. The Sith seek to destroy both Republic and Jedi. The logical course of action is to join the Republic to uphold the peace and defeat the Sith.

 

everybody's day to day life is survival using all available resources being force sensitive dose not make it a special circumstance. if you want to know the root nature of a life form throw it in a environment it has a more than 50% chance of survival and see how it reacts, then you will find the true nature of that life form

 

that's just a point of view who's to say there the main government the empire has a legitimate government of its own just because you agree with there ideals does not make the the right government, it only makes them right government in your eyes

 

EDIT: i do not agree with the empires way of doing things but am not closed minded and only look at it from one side i look at it from the point of view from both sides

Edited August 14, 2012 by liammozz

[grandmthethird]

The books are a part of SW lore, but they are a lower level in canon then the movies.

 

Ask yourself something first. If balance is light and dark in co-existence, would you want to live with someone who would kill you without a second thought? That's the Dark Side.

 

go back to 1983 before PT, before EU. at the end of ROTJ. the message i believe was simple. we all have light and dark within us. vader showed this when he showed his lightside at the end of 3 films of him being darkside, he finally showed us that he wasn't all evil

 

so i believe GL started with the idea that there was two sides of one force a darkside and a lightside and it flowed through us all (but only certain ppl could use it but it was always there), then he wrote the PT and had to bend the force and change his original vision of it to fit the new films.

 

so if you want to talk about different levels of cannon and the films being the top level of cannon then surely the OT vision of the force would come before the PT version

 

but this and the fact that GL changes what he says in interviews. or tells us we misunderstood what he really meant. is the reason i hate the cannon system. and just take each piece of star wars work on its own merit, if it makes sense then i'll go with it, and the throne of balance does make sense, or at least it did while i was reading the book

[Aurbere]

everybody's day to day life is survival using all available resources being force sensitive dose not make it a special circumstance. if you want to know the root nature of a life form throw it in a environment it has a more than 50% chance of survival and see how it reacts, then you will find the true nature of that life form

 

that's just a point of view who's to say there the main government the empire has a legitimate government of its own just because you agree with there ideals does not make the the right government, it only makes them right government in your eyes

 

EDIT: i do not agree with the empires way of doing things but am not closed minded and only look at it from one side i look at it from the point of view from both sides

 

1. I agree that life is about survival, but you are taking someone who doesn't know what kind of power he has. Of course he will misuse it in order to survive. If he knew what kind of power he had, then he could make a choice. Light Side: go to the Jedi to control it. Dark Side: attempt to take over the galaxy. or something evil to a lesser degree.

 

2. My point of view is the right point of view. What would the Sith do if they were in control. You don't have to think about, just look at Palpatine's Empire. No one was allowed to voice an opinion against the Emperor. And if they did, they got killed... brutally. Tarkin landed a Star Destroyer on a group of protestors. A more permanent solution to insurrection: the Death Star. The Death Star was a weapon of fear. And if it didn't scare them, it had a superlaser to destroy a planet. Clearly, through it's faults you can see that the Republic was a bastion of peace.

[Aurbere]

go back to 1983 before PT, before EU. at the end of ROTJ. the message i believe was simple. we all have light and dark within us. vader showed this when he showed his lightside at the end of 3 films of him being darkside, he finally showed us that he wasn't all evil

 

so i believe GL started with the idea that there was two sides of one force a darkside and a lightside and it flowed through us all (but only certain ppl could use it but it was always there), then he wrote the PT and had to bend the force and change his original vision of it to fit the new films.

 

so if you want to talk about different levels of cannon and the films being the top level of cannon then surely the OT vision of the force would come before the PT version

 

but this and the fact that GL changes what he says in interviews. or tells us we misunderstood what he really meant. is the reason i hate the cannon system. and just take each piece of star wars work on its own merit, if it makes sense then i'll go with it, and the throne of balance does make sense, or at least it did while i was reading the book

 

The canon system isn't the greatest, but I believe the most recent piece of G-canon is the one that trumps the old one. I'm not sure on that, but as GL's vision changes so too does the SW universe. And we, as fans, have to abide by his rules. Especially in a discussion like this.

 

Edit: I did some research on G-canon additions and didn't come up with anything, but I heard that the recent additions are the new G-canon somewhere.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Aurbere

[liammozz]

1. I agree that life is about survival, but you are taking someone who doesn't know what kind of power he has. Of course he will misuse it in order to survive. If he knew what kind of power he had, then he could make a choice. Light Side: go to the Jedi to control it. Dark Side: attempt to take over the galaxy. or something evil to a lesser degree.

 

2. My point of view is the right point of view. What would the Sith do if they were in control. You don't have to think about, just look at Palpatine's Empire. No one was allowed to voice an opinion against the Emperor. And if they did, they got killed... brutally. Tarkin landed a Star Destroyer on a group of protestors. A more permanent solution to insurrection: the Death Star. The Death Star was a weapon of fear. And if it didn't scare them, it had a superlaser to destroy a planet. Clearly, through it's faults you can see that the Republic was a bastion of peace.

 

that's because thats the natural order of life survival of the fittest its why the sith have kicked the jedi's behind in every major battle and why they wiped the jedi order out. the only reason the empire lost is because vader basic human instinct took over to protect his son, it had nothing to do with him seeing the light side of the force it was base instinct

 

no the republic was a basin of corruption and evil to that allowed trading with pirates, killers and slavers, they allied them selves with the hutts, turned a blind eye on the imps left right and centre left millions to starve in poverty on there capital world, abandoned there troops to die to save face shall i continue or is this enough?

 

both sides are just as bad as each other the only difference is one hides its corruption in the shadows

Edited August 14, 2012 by liammozz

[Aurbere]

that's because thats the natural order of life survival of the fittest its why the sith have kicked the jedi's behind in every major battle and why they wiped the jedi order out. the only reason the empire lost is because vader basic human instinct took over to protect his son, it had nothing to do with him seeing the light side of the force it was base instinct

 

no the republic was a basin of corruption and evil to that allowed trading with pirates, killers and slavers, they allied them selves with the hutts, turned a blind eye on the imps left right and centre left millions to starve in poverty on there capital world, abandoned there troops to die to save face shall i continue or is this enough?

 

both sides are just as bad as each other the only difference is one hides its corruption in the shadows

 

1. Wow. You are incredibly misguided. The Sith have not beaten the Jedi everytime. That's kinda why the Order stood for over a thousand generations. They have beaten the Sith multiple times. And Vader killed Palpatine to save his son. In doing so, he turned back to the Light Side. Where exactly are you getting this information, the Sith Lords guide to galactic domination?

 

 

2. You play the Empire side alot, don't you? Every government has corruption. The Sith Empire just puts theirs on display, because to them it's a good thing. The Republic's corruption is hidden because the corrupt people know that what they are doing is wrong. And the Sith are worse by far. I'll take the Republic over an Empire that would kill you rather than give citizenship.

 

Don't act like this. Your getting close to being on my ignore list. And I never ignore people. In all of my years of gaming and forum posting, I have never ignored someone. Don't be the first.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Aurbere

[liammozz]

1. Wow. You are incredibly misguided. The Sith have not beaten the Jedi everytime. That's kinda why the Order stood for over a thousand generations. They have beaten the Sith multiple times. And Vader killed Palpatine to save his son. In doing so, he turned back to the Light Side. Where exactly are you getting this information, the Sith Lords guide to galactic domination?

 

 

2. You play the Empire side alot, don't you? Every government has corruption. The Sith Empire just puts theirs on display, because to them it's a good thing. The Republic's corruption is hidden because the corrupt people know that what they are doing is wrong. And the Sith are worse by far. I'll take the Republic over an Empire that would kill you rather than give citizenship.

 

Don't act like this. Your getting close to being on my ignore list. And I never ignore people. In all of my years of gaming and forum posting, I have never ignored someone. Don't be the first.

 

ok i can see how am coming off as a bit of a nazi here lol that was not my intention

 

i was trying to show its all about perspective the imps don't think what there doing is wrong so from there point they are right (i know there not)

 

and you cant show just the good parts of the republic and brush the bad parts under the rug, they are corrupt from the foundation up its the reason the republic has failed over and over again hell its the main reason RL governments fail democracy does not work its been shown time and time again but its the best out of a crap bunch that why we use it

[EnsignSorrow]

This conversation is hardly intelligible at this point.

[Aurbere]

ok i can see how am coming off as a bit of a nazi here lol that was not my intention

 

i was trying to show its all about perspective the imps don't think what there doing is wrong so from there point they are right (i know there not)

 

and you cant show just the good parts of the republic and brush the bad parts under the rug, they are corrupt from the foundation up its the reason the republic has failed over and over again hell its the main reason RL governments fail democracy does not work its been shown time and time again but its the best out of a crap bunch that why we use it

 

It's hard to put your intetion across in text.

 

Your right about perspective, but I try not to look at things from the bad guys perspective. If they kill thousands just for the sake of it, they're bad guys. I'm a firm believer in justice. If you do something bad, you deserve to be put in jail. That's why, on this game, I never let the Republic's corruption go on. And I don't intend to just brush the corruption under the rug. I'll be the first one to admit that they are corrupt, but they're the better of two evils.

[Aurbere]

This conversation is hardly intelligible at this point.

 

Don't worry. I'll make a post to get us back on track.

[eclipce]

Some people believe the canon states otherwise, in the form of Jolee Bindo, Kreia, Revan and others like Vergere. but this is merely a misunderstanding, they are not 'grey', those like Jolee Bindo and even Qui-Gon Jiin, did not use the 'grey' side or a balanced side, or anything like that, they merely followed the Will of the Force, true, they disagreed with the Jedi Order to varying degrees, but that made them 'Grey Jedi' not Grey Force users, the difference is enormous.

 

good post, OP - people need to see this - as far as what we know "IRL" about the force and what the characters in various media and our characters knows in swtor is a whole other ball game.

[Aurbere]

The topic of balancing the Force is one that has confused many people.

 

Balance of the Force is when there are no Sith. I have already said that the Force is only Light and the Dark Side is an outside entity. The Sith throw the Force out of balance just by existing. Palpatine's mere presence threw the Force out of balance, he was the embodiment of the Dark Side. He destroyed the Jedi Order, took over the galaxy and ruled it with an iron fist. He did exactly what the Dark Side is meant for.

 

Let's take a realistic view of balance. Some of you view the Force as an actual balancing scale. It is not. The theory is that there should be an equal number of Sith-Jedi. That when Anakin joined Sidious and destroyed the Jedi Order, leaving two Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda) alive, brought the Force into balance. This is wrong. The Banite line was designed to eliminate the Jedi Order and take over the galaxy. The Banite line increased in power with each new generation of Sith. Sidious was the embodiment of this rule. Now ask yourselves this: If the Jedi Order had 10,000 members, would you want 10,000 Banite Sith running around?

 

That would mean the end of the Jedi Order. The Sith have always sought to destroy the Jedi. They would never co-exist with the Jedi. They would be more than likely to just walk into the Jedi Temple and slaughter the entire Order. They'd put up a good fight, but the Banite Sith would triumph. Of course the Banite line would be students of Palpatine. Which would still be very bad for the Jedi. So again I ask, do you think an equal number of Sith and Jedi is a good thing?

[grandmthethird]

The topic of balancing the Force is one that has confused many people.

 

Balance of the Force is when there are no Sith. I have already said that the Force is only Light and the Dark Side is an outside entity. The Sith throw the Force out of balance just by existing. Palpatine's mere presence threw the Force out of balance, he was the embodiment of the Dark Side. He destroyed the Jedi Order, took over the galaxy and ruled it with an iron fist. He did exactly what the Dark Side is meant for.

 

Let's take a realistic view of balance. Some of you view the Force as an actual balancing scale. It is not. The theory is that there should be an equal number of Sith-Jedi. That when Anakin joined Sidious and destroyed the Jedi Order, leaving two Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda) alive, brought the Force into balance. This is wrong. The Banite line was designed to eliminate the Jedi Order and take over the galaxy. The Banite line increased in power with each new generation of Sith. Sidious was the embodiment of this rule. Now ask yourselves this: If the Jedi Order had 10,000 members, would you want 10,000 Banite Sith running around?

 

That would mean the end of the Jedi Order. The Sith have always sought to destroy the Jedi. They would never co-exist with the Jedi. They would be more than likely to just walk into the Jedi Temple and slaughter the entire Order. They'd put up a good fight, but the Banite Sith would triumph. Of course the Banite line would be students of Palpatine. Which would still be very bad for the Jedi. So again I ask, do you think an equal number of Sith and Jedi is a good thing?

 

i dont believe, for the force to be balanced we need an equal number of sith to jedi (another bit of misinformation that we got from not understanding what GL meant when he gave a interview on the matter) the idea is stupid for many reasons, chief amoung them is that some ppl are stronger n the force than others, and how can you make sure you have 2x2 that are all equal in the strength of the force.

 

i like the idea of the force being one single thing and it having both sides a good side and a bad side, i believe this was the original vision of the force when OT came out, so can't be surprised if aot of star wars fans think of this of how the force works.

 

your idea of a force and an anti force is an ok idea i can certianly see how it could work. my problem is, as i have shown with 2 examples this dosn't work so well. sure yes star wars is huge and written by lots of ppl so your going to get ideas that contradict themselfs. but as i pointed out FOTJ is he last series and is going to be the spring board fo the future direction of star wars. i find it hard to believe the whole next generation of star wars is going to be so fundamentally wrong from the start

 

also i have never read in any book of the force being separate, true i have only read 38 books so far, so there is a always the possibility that i will come across this theory at some point in the future

[BrandonSM]

Not sure if this contributes to the discussion or not. This is taking out of Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader... sorry for grammar issues, doing this on my tablet.

 

 

Literally the first paragraph of the book:

--------------------------------

 

 

No matter how fixed Shryne had been on touching the Force, his minds eye had offered little more than an eddying whiteness. Years later, when he had become more adept at silencing thought and immersing himself in the light, visual fragments would emerge from the colorless void-pieces to a puzzle that would gradually assemble themselves and resolve. Not in any consciousness way, though frequently assuring him that his actions in the world were in accord with the will of the Force.

Frequently, but not always.

 

------------------------------

 

P.S. a great book btw

[TheBentOne]

This thread is full of win. Props to Rayla and Aurbere.

[Aurbere]

i dont believe, for the force to be balanced we need an equal number of sith to jedi (another bit of misinformation that we got from not understanding what GL meant when he gave a interview on the matter) the idea is stupid for many reasons, chief amoung them is that some ppl are stronger n the force than others, and how can you make sure you have 2x2 that are all equal in the strength of the force.

 

i like the idea of the force being one single thing and it having both sides a good side and a bad side, i believe this was the original vision of the force when OT came out, so can't be surprised if aot of star wars fans think of this of how the force works.

 

your idea of a force and an anti force is an ok idea i can certianly see how it could work. my problem is, as i have shown with 2 examples this dosn't work so well. sure yes star wars is huge and written by lots of ppl so your going to get ideas that contradict themselfs. but as i pointed out FOTJ is he last series and is going to be the spring board fo the future direction of star wars. i find it hard to believe the whole next generation of star wars is going to be so fundamentally wrong from the start

 

also i have never read in any book of the force being separate, true i have only read 38 books so far, so there is a always the possibility that i will come across this theory at some point in the future

 

How would the book series after FOTJ be wrong?

 

Let me just clear up my opinion on the Force. The Force is a benevolent spirit that guides the actions of certain individuals in an effort to create, or in some cases restore, peace. Now, if the Force had a Light and a Dark Side, then there would be no reason for a rebellion during the time of the Galactic Empire. Since the Dark Side was in control, the Light Side would not bother with starting a rebellion, since one aspect of its being was in control. Which leads to what I believe to be the true meaning of the Force. I believe, and evidence backs me up on this, that the Force is just Light Side. The Force seeks peace and traquility, while the Dark Side and its followers seek to disrupt this peace. When the Empire took control, the Dark Side triumphed. It had dirupted the carefully crafted and fragile peace created by the Force and its followers.

 

So the Empire is in control. Chaos abounds. People who don't like the new regime are killed publically and brutally, while the heads of the Empire delude themselves with a false sense of peace. The logical thing for the peace seeking Force to do is to create a rebellion to stop the evil empire and restore peace. Peace through war. Not the greatest avenue to reach peace, but it is unlikely that the rebels could just pop in on the Emperor and make him step down. So a war for true peace starts. Meanwhile, the Force works through the last of the Jedi to train a new generation of peace-keepers: Luke Skywalker. So obviously, the rebels won and peace was restored.

 

Now, one could argue that the Light Side of the Force would fight back when the Empire took control the same way the Force did. A plausible theory, but if the Force is two sides why would the Light need to fight the Dark Side once it is in control. It's not like the Force lost control of the galaxy. It's just a different side of it that's in control. I know it sounds weird, and I'm having difficulty figuring out how I want to word it so I hope this is understandable.

 

This would be so much easier if Lucas was clearer about the Force. Maybe he doesn't even know what it is.

[Aurbere]

This thread is full of win. Props to Rayla and Aurbere.

 

Well thank you Bent. I don't know where Rayla went, but I'm doing my best here. Glad to see you agree.

[EnsignSorrow]

i dont believe, for the force to be balanced we need an equal number of sith to jedi

 

That's just not correct. There is no stability (balance) in fear and anger.

[Fyurii]

That's just not correct. There is no stability (balance) in fear and anger.

 

Grandmthethird wasn't saying that balance was equal numbers of Jedi & Sith. Read the rest of that paragraph for context to that piece of text you singled out.

[grandmthethird]

Grandmthethird wasn't saying that balance was equal numbers of Jedi & Sith. Read the rest of that paragraph for context to that piece of text you singled out.

 

i wrote that on my phone before i went to sleep last night, and my typos are terribad, and its very hard to edit using a phone so i'm not surprised it was misunderstood. i'm glad some1 got the idea tho

 

@aurbere, my point about the end of FOTJ was i believe the next generation of star wars will be the queen of the jedi, and the throne of balance. and that whole storyline to me makes more sense if we talk about one force

 

one last thing. darkside and lightside, if we had 2 separate forces then surely we would call them dark force and light force, and not the darkside of the force and the lightside of the force.

 

but something telling that you did say, i agree with, i'm sure GL himself is not sure exactly how he wants the force to be or even exactly what it is

Edited August 15, 2012 by grandmthethird