Was Kreia wrong?

[The-Nexus]

I put a lot of faith in what Kreia says. In KotOR 2 she states that Revan never encountered a Sith Empire of any sort in the Unknown Regions. Yet in TOR, that is completely retconned away, saying that Revan was actually a pawn of the Emperor in the Jedi Civil war.

 

Is this a case of Kreia as a character being flat-out wrong? Is she lying to not discourage the Exile from leaving?

 

Or is it a case of Bioware not paying attention to Obsidian's writing and just going with what they wanted?

 

Does anyone know why they decided to completely change the story?

Edited August 11, 2012 by The-Nexus

[Rayla_Felana]

When did she state that? all she ever stated was that Revan went out there in search of the Sith, the True Sith that had been watching on the edge of the galaxy.

[The-Nexus]

When did she state that? all she ever stated was that Revan went out there in search of the Sith, the True Sith that had been watching on the edge of the galaxy.

 

You can ask her if Revan ever encountered the Sith, to which she replies something like: "No, Revan never encountered any Sith Empire."

 

I'm sure the exact quote is somewhere on the Internet, I'll try to find it.

[Rayla_Felana]

You can ask her if Revan ever encountered the Sith, to which she replies something like: "No, Revan never encountered any Sith Empire."

 

I'm sure the exact quote is somewhere on the Internet, I'll try to find it.

 

How could that by correct if she never even spoke to him afterwards?

 

She speculates a lot, but never states anything as fact.

[OldVengeance]

I don't remember exactly where Kriea says that. I thought the implication from the second game was that Revan did encouter the True Sith Empire in the Unknown Regions. In fact doesn't Carth or Bastila say he dissappeared because he went to find them again?

 

In anycase, if she did say that then yes I think she was wrong. I already thought she's wrong about a lot of things.

 

Revan's motives and several other plot points were retconned in both games that came after Kotor I (and even in that game to a degree), I suppose so it really isn't a surprise that Bioware wouldhave decided to just go wherever they wanted with the story. Bioware and Obsidian seemed to both have very diffferent visions for what comes after Kotor 2.

[The-Nexus]

How could that by correct if she never even spoke to him afterwards?

 

She speculates a lot, but never states anything as fact.

How do we know she didn't?

 

After the Jedi Civil war, Revan stayed around for like what, a year? Kreia or Revan could have tracked down each other. They both had legitimate reasons to want to see each other. Revan could have wanted to ask Kreia about his past considering that he started remembering stuff. She was his old master after all.

[The-Nexus]

I don't remember exactly where Kriea says that. I thought the implication from the second game was that Revan did encouter the True Sith Empire in the Unknown Regions. In fact doesn't Carth or Bastila say he dissappeared because he went to find them again?

I was always under the assumption that he went to find something LIKE sith, but not an Empire led by a maniacal emperor.

In anycase, if she did say that then yes I think she was wrong. I already thought she's wrong about a lot of things.

I suppose she couldn't know everything. The reason I asked was because she's right about a lot of things in the game, and I was unsure about this one.

Revan's motives and several other plot points were retconned in both games that came after Kotor I (and even in that game to a degree), I suppose so it really isn't a surprise that Bioware wouldhave decided to just go wherever they wanted with the story. Bioware and Obsidian seemed to both have very diffferent visions for what comes after Kotor 2.

My take on this from what Kreia said is that Revan became the Dark Lord as a sacrifice, not by choice. He did it so that the Force would be in balance again. Similar to what Anakin did in episode 3, although he did not know what he was doing and he was a horrible character so that doesn't count in my mind.

 

The last part of your post makes me sad :/ Obsidian have always been the superior writers, Bioware should have listened to them.

[Rayla_Felana]

How do we know she didn't?

 

After the Jedi Civil war, Revan stayed around for like what, a year? Kreia or Revan could have tracked down each other. They both had legitimate reasons to want to see each other. Revan could have wanted to ask Kreia about his past considering that he started remembering stuff. She was his old master after all.

 

He didn't even remember the Sith Empire, it wasn't till way later on that he left, once he'd remembered partially, after speaking with the Order, giving Canderous the Mandalore's helmet and such.

[Revan-the-knight]

I was always under the assumption that he went to find something LIKE sith, but not an Empire led by a maniacal emperor.

 

I suppose she couldn't know everything. The reason I asked was because she's right about a lot of things in the game, and I was unsure about this one.

 

My take on this from what Kreia said is that Revan became the Dark Lord as a sacrifice, not by choice. He did it so that the Force would be in balance again. Similar to what Anakin did in episode 3, although he did not know what he was doing and he was a horrible character so that doesn't count in my mind.

 

The last part of your post makes me sad :/ Obsidian have always been the superior writers, Bioware should have listened to them.

 

To add on that Revan didnt become the Dark Lord purely for the sake of Balance, he did it because he had to, he was going to prepare the galaxy for the True Empires Onslaught, and with the Star Forge, and countless Jedi he corrupted and billions of Troops he recruited, and with the knowledge he gained from the Emperor, he couldve actually won if Malak didnt screw things over, He couldve stopped the Empire in its tracks

[Rayla_Felana]

To add on that Revan didnt become the Dark Lord purely for the sake of Balance, he did it because he had to, he was going to prepare the galaxy for the True Empires Onslaught, and with the Star Forge, and countless Jedi he corrupted and billions of Troops he recruited, and with the knowledge he gained from the Emperor, he couldve actually won if Malak didnt screw things over, He couldve stopped the Empire in its tracks

 

Except that the Sith Empire winning the galaxy never mattered to it's leader, if we know anything, that's just a distraction.

[OldVengeance]

It's difficult to talk about the whole situation because the story ideas have been changed to much over the course of all three games.

 

I'm fairly certain that Kreia does mention that "The True Sith Empire waits for us in the dark" and that it had something to do with why Revan disappeared. Carth says that Revan left because he remembered something horrible and left to fight it. There are also many hints that the soon there would be a war when the Sith attack. Revan told Carth to keep the Republic strong and Canderous to unite the Mandalorians in preparation. Exactly what Obsidian had in mind for "The True Sith Empire" in unknown but I'm pretty sure it wasn't what we got in TOR. The Sith Emperor was obviously not a concept that existed back then. Truthfully, while I was not especially pleased with the version of the Sith Empire we got in this game, I actually have serious doubts I would have liked the Obsidian version better. I remember reading that they somehow would have predated the Ancient Sith despite the fact that it would have made no sense, because the inhabitants of Korriban were the first species to bear that name. Perhaps they were supposed to be some primal force of the darkside because there are several references to the coming conflict being a "war of belief." Maybe somebody else knows more?

 

I've honestly found Kreia's interpretation of Revan becoming the Dark Lord as a sacrifice and out of necessity to be absurd, but that's mostly beacuse I rejected the implications of her phrasing. She seemed to think he was a hero for doing so but I just thought it made him an arrogant fool and certainly didn't excuse his actions.

 

Revan's updated backstory in the second game did heavily imply he was preparing for a future conflict and that he had intended to conquer the Republic for it's own good to prepare the rest of the galaxy for the invasion of the True Sith (whoever they were). I don't think it mentions anywhere that it had to do with the Force coming back into balance.

 

One of the reasons I dug Kotor 2's version of Revan would have enjoyed his story being explored in Kotor 3 was that it could well have made him into a more three dimensional character instead of some ridiculously overblown overpowered perfect legend or useless loser who accomplished nothing. Now a days he seems to be remembered only as one or the other.

 

Revan was an extremely powerful Jedi Knight, a master manipulator and an effective and ambitious leader but he was also dangerously prideful and an ultimately an abject failure. His attempts to strengthen the galaxy under his rule resulted in him playing right into his enemies' hands and now the Republic is crippled from two wars in large part because of him. Conquering the Republic himself was a foolish plan that Revan was arrogant to try and it backfired catastrophically. It seemed he was always a conceited and unethical Jedi even during the Mandalorian Wars and with his fall to the darkside and he became an even greater menace even if he had a sympathetic goal.

 

Despite all his many strengths, it was his hubris and recklessness that brought down his plans. And in the third game he'd be forced to confront his flaws and finally help fix the mess he made. Then the retcon with him and the Sith Emperor changed all that. Although to be fair that's only my own personal interpretation and I have no real reason to think that would have happened if Obsidian had made Kotor 3 either.

Edited August 12, 2012 by OldVengeance

[Maaruin]

I was always under the assumption that he went to find something LIKE sith, but not an Empire led by a maniacal emperor.

 

I always though he found Sith, not something like Sith.

 

I suppose she couldn't know everything. The reason I asked was because she's right about a lot of things in the game, and I was unsure about this one.

 

Was she really? It seemed like that, but until today we don't know if Tulak Hord really used a lightsaber. She was right about Sion and Nihilus because she had insider knowledge

 

My take on this from what Kreia said is that Revan became the Dark Lord as a sacrifice, not by choice. He did it so that the Force would be in balance again. Similar to what Anakin did in episode 3, although he did not know what he was doing and he was a horrible character so that doesn't count in my mind.

 

That for example one thing where she was wrong. I don't know if she said it to manipulate the Exile towards approving of the dark side or because she really believed it.

Revan fell to the dark side because of the Mandalorian wars, even before he was mind contolled by the Emperor. Almost all Jedi who fought the Mandalorians did and Revan was no exception.

 

And that was also the impression I got from Kotor 2. Either I didn't notice Kreia saying this or I didn't believe her.

 

The last part of your post makes me sad :/ Obsidian have always been the superior writers, Bioware should have listened to them.

 

Yes, Obsidian did a very good job. I was fooled by Kreia for most of the game. She was a manipulative darksider all the time, but I though she was a grey Jedi who had great wisdom to share.

[Kaisernick]

kirea lies

 

when she is asked why none of the other jedi recognize her she says she uses a ability to hide herself and when asked if she uses it on the exile she says no.

 

well she hid that she was sith all along.

 

she also told tobin to go to nhilus without telling her and hanhar about malacor 5.

[Kyriosgundam]

You can ask her if Revan ever encountered the Sith, to which she replies something like: "No, Revan never encountered any Sith Empire."

 

I'm sure the exact quote is somewhere on the Internet, I'll try to find it.

 

What she was referring to was when Revan fought in the Mandalorian Wars during the war he did not encounter any Sith Empire. However She did say that Revan went into the Unknown reigons looking for the true Sith and that Meetra Surik (The Exile) would follow in his footsteps. Kreia did say that Revan found something in the Unkown Reigons that changed him into Darth Revan. Its not until TOR that we find out what that was. Also lets not forget that Kreia herself was a fallen Jedi and not really a Sith as far as she was concerned the true Sith had been dead for 1,000 yrs.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Kyriosgundam

[smartalectwo]

I've honestly found Kreia's interpretation of Revan becoming the Dark Lord as a sacrifice and out of necessity to be absurd, but that's mostly beacuse I rejected the implications of her phrasing. She seemed to think he was a hero for doing so but I just thought it made him an arrogant fool and certainly didn't excuse his actions.

 

It's fairly easy to guess why Kreia, the advocate for shunning the Force and for self-determination, would see Revan as a hero - first for turning against the Jedi Council, and then against the Sith Empire, fighting to find his own way. He failed, and the effects of what he tried to do were quite horrific, but she'd likely still see him as a hero for trying.

Edited August 12, 2012 by smartalectwo

[JacenHallis]

She speculates a lot, but never states anything as fact.

I'm with you.

 

In actuality, Obsidian really developed Revan as a character, even when he didn't appear in their game. We find out in the first game that he's extremely charismatic, and that he's a good leader. He unites a twi'lek street urchin and her wookiee friend, a Mandalorian, a Republic officer, a highly esteemed member of the Jedi Order and another Jedi who has every reason to hate him, and he leads them in saving the galaxy from a problem that he himself created.

 

Then, in KOTOR 2 we learn how charismatic Revan really was. He was so charismatic that he convinced a number of Jedi to follow him into the war, despite loud protestations from the council. He was so charismatic that Republic soldiers who were angry at the Jedi for not joining the war quickly warmed to Revan and followed him into situations they knew they wouldn't come out of. He was so charismatic that one of his previous masters, Kreia, became so enamored of him that she compared him to the "heart of the Force," and she even made excuses for his fall (He was just testing our capabilities!).

 

If Revan and the Exile were as close as many believe then it's very likely that the Exile did harbor some feelings toward him, even if they didn't manifest as romantic. A lot of people crap on Drew's characterization of the Exile in the Revan novel, but it actually jives very well with both games' descriptions of Revan. Of course she feels a twinge of jealousy toward Bastila. Think about your best friend, who suddenly has found the love of his/her life. Suddenly, you're not as important in your friend's life anymore. It doesn't mean you're in love with your friend. It simply means that your relationship has been altered, and jealousy is common, and hopefully quickly worked out.

 

Back to the matter at hand, Kreia was simply stating what she believed. Never take it as fact unless it's further backed up by other sources. Most of what Kreia said was only what she believed. We also have to wonder how much of what she said was even her actual belief. She would know of the relationship between Meetra and Revan. How much of what she said was truthful, and how much was meant to lead Meetra down a certain path. Kreia was also known as Darth Traya, after all, and she wielded treachery as her most potent weapon. Everything that woman said is suspect.

Edited August 13, 2012 by JacenHallis

[The-Nexus]

Alright alright, fine. You've all convinced me. I need to take a closer look at this. I'll replay KotOR 2 once I get back from my vacation, I'll look at everything Kreia says with an extremelly critical eye. I guess my fondness for her character must have clouded my logic while playing through the game. I have to give Obsidian credit for writing a character that can keep tricking you even after she's exposed herself as a "darth".

 

That, or I'm just stupid.

[Darth_Therat]

"Do you think the men and the machines you have fought are Sith? You are wron, the Sith it's a belief, and their Empire, their true empire, is somewhere else."

 

She specifically mentions that there is a Sith Empire somewhere. What she means, in the other quote, about no sith empire, its about the "sith" forces led by Revan, which, all we all know, were not the sith empire.

 

Although, it's pretty clear that the sith empire that obsidean had in mind was quite different from the empire we see today, they had in mind something more dark and alien, not the mundane empire that we see in TOR. I don't know if they could have made this vision actually true in the hipothetical Kotor III, (Actually the depiction of the Malachor V academy makes me believe they could, that place exuded darkness and terrol from all its pixels), nor I'm blaming bioware from the empire we have, since, they have to make it playable, so it had to be something that the player could understand and somehow sympatize with, something they have achieved, IMO.

 

But losing the dark, alien and bizarre sith that kotor 2 was hinting, was kinda sad anyway. Actually, when the first rumours about this game, started in 2006, hinting the kotor mmo, the idea I had in mind of the game was quite diferent than this one.

 

I though, that in the game, there would be 3 factions. The republic with the jedi, the new "sith" (the descendants of the sith forces led by Revan and the Sith triunvirate) and the common enemy, the True, dark, alien, imposible to grasp, Sith Empire promised by Kreia.

 

Somehow we got something similar, (spoilers ahead), since we have the republic, the empire with the sith order, and the Emperor organization, which really goes against this two, and eventually, will be overthrown by them.

[JediMasterYuvan]

I think Kreia just never understood the whole story of Revan. Remember, Revan was Kreia's first Padawan ((Kreia = Arren Kae)) and he never saw Kreia again after he left for the Mandalorian Wars.