sithloardbob Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 You do realize numbers mean very little in competitive RWZs right? It is about burst damage, utility, survivability, and coordination. I do around 700k damage and 200k healing in regular warzones depending on the length, but get wrecked against 2600+ teams in RWZ because they burst me down in about 5 seconds even when I have a guard on me. We have no damage reduction abilities like PT bubble and Mara bubble/vanish. The only way to survive as a Sage dps is to hang far back and peeling off of your healers, while completely ignoring nodes because if you get too close you get grappled and destroyed in only a couple GCDs. Can Sages be effective with the right comp? yes. Is it more logical to bring 3 button monkey Vanguards in to do undeserved burst damage? Yes I understand that numbers don't really matter at all in general in rated or not.... Because this is a team game... I would rather take 3 dps putting up 200k dmg and win than a couple people putting up 400-800k dmg and lose... I'm just saying sorcs aren't as fail as everyone thinks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelerific Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Entire thread needs a caption so people will stop arguing over nothing. Moral of the story: "Sorcs can do VERY well at the hands of skilled players, but, these skilled players would do even better if they were playing a different class." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithloardbob Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Entire thread needs a caption so people will stop arguing over nothing. Moral of the story: "Sorcs can do VERY well at the hands of skilled players, but, these skilled players would do even better if they were playing a different class." I have to say sir.... Well put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaiyne Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Not saying you are a bad player at all, but your video does you no justice. This guy is a very pro DPS sorc, but yeah, the vids don't show real competition, agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaiyne Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Moral of the story: "Sorcs can do VERY well at the hands of skilled players, but, these skilled players would do even better if they were playing a different class." /thread. GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Entire thread needs a caption so people will stop arguing over nothing. Moral of the story: "Sorcs can do VERY well at the hands of skilled players, but, these skilled players would do even better if they were playing a different class." This pretty much hits the nail on the head. Can I get top heals and damage as a sorc? Yes. Can I 1v1 most people? Yes. Can I do significantly better healing and damage, get more kills, and do considerably more for my team as an op healer, PT or mara? Yes. Saying that good players will be good as a sorc is a no brainer- but when you can drop sorc and do considerably more as another class there's a clear balancing issue. I don't think anyone saying sorcs are poor in rated was saying 'sorcs blow at low levels' or 'two sorcs focusing together on vent won't be able to crush pugs' which is all that the OP's really proved to be untrue. When OP can show us some vids of him and his buddy playing their marauders, and then some vids of them on their sorcs- at max level- we will see either the huge difference in how useful they are as we've predicted, or skill getting in the way of the class's potential. What we will not see is vids of sorcs dominating in ways that marauders cannot- provided the OP is in fact a great mara and a great sorc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidichIorian Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I just got, what I believe is, a great idea. *If you spec full madness you'll have decent dots, not good but decent, but you'll also run low on force pretty quickly. *If you spec Lightning you'll never run out of force but you'll have to sacrifice some of the useful madness abilties and you're stuck with even worse dots. *If you spec hybrid you'll have to waste points on crap you're not particulary interested in just to be able to reach the good abilties. Meaning that you can't afford the ones you would want but you will on the other hand get some versatility at the same time as your force management will be great. Ideal would be a madness spec with the force management from the Lightning tree. This would allow madness sorcs to use shock more often without the risk of draining force. I mean, how fun is it to kite someone with just affliction at your disposal? One way of fixing the problems would of course be to simply re-arrange the trees but I can almost assure you that it would piss some hybrids off. So my solution is to re-write the mechanics for unlocking the next tier in a tree. Ideally would be if the requirement would span across all three trees, as in you don't have to put points in tier two lightning to be able to reach tier 3 if you already have enough points in tier 2 madness. That strikes me as a bit too generous though, even with the restriction of not being able to have the 31pt ability from more than one tree, so perhaps they could create some middleground where fulfilling the requirement for the next tier in one tree would lower the requirement by 2-3 points in the other trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssfbistimg Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Please, stop throwing numbers like these which are completely off the hook. I drop 3.3k to 3.5k crits in average with the exeptional above 4K on a green nub. This is in full WH with mental scarring specced entirely. With mod swapping I could probably be topping high 3ks on similarly geared people, but even then that wouldnt be representative of what the average player can do with a balance sage, because of the gear grind needed to achieve such numbers. Also, i run OOF pretty regularly with my 31 balance build and "popping a medpack after using noble sacrifice" just doesnt cut it when you're in big fights for mid/south in wz. Force management is definately an issue with a balance sage, after the initial DPS you will be way less effective if there is no way to meditate in between fights, you'll be a worse dps compared to most other dps classes. yes im very well geared so what. everyone can do it. Nothing I posted is lies. In no way shape or form are we underpowered. Again my only complaint on my class is Weaken Mind & Sever Force last to long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kweassa Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) People just have to understand and accept that each classes are different. Classes like sorc/sages and snipers/gunslingers are those who absolutely excell in large-scale combat, and while the latter has absolutely higher burst capacity, I'd prefer to have a sorc/sage as a teammate if I am given a choice to choose only one. Sorc/sages are versatile in many ways, and sometimes, having them as an enemy would drive you insane when the conditions are right for the sorc/sage. Even in a DPS spec their multi-role nature really shines out... Despite just using short-cast basic heals, a crit will easily dish out 2k+ HP per pop... For some reason people only seem to use the 'Rescue' skill extensively in Huttball only, but in large scale engagements a combo of slow/mez to the enemy, and a quick target switch to friendly, Rescue, shielding, and few bursts of heals make you a very capable evac-man. Especially if you have the sense to use different levels in the terrain. You can provide temporary relief to a teammate focused by melees, by jumping in, activating the AoE knock, and then getting out.. Dishing out multiple shots of Weaken mind to ALL of the enemy within range, and despite its low in damage, accumulated damage will at some point start coming in heavy to all of the enemies. An extra shot of AoE attacks are also provided... and etc etc.. The thing is, this versatile multi-role capacity comes at a price of being squishy, and clear limtations in handling focused enemy attacks. Therefore, to achieve success the player must achieve contradicting objectives, which is to make all the difference one person can, but at the same time avoid drawing attention to oneself... and in many cases this requires a lot of experience. Positioning is everything with a Sorc/sage, and once the enemies perceive you as a major threat, then you require that much help from your friendlies as well -- unlike some "solo" type of enemies which can walk away from a fight by oneself. I have a sage of my own, and while I do practice as much as I can to prepare myself for 1vs1 confrontations, still it is in may cases very difficult. In many cases, with my hybrid DPS spec I'm the highest damage dealer, and at the same time 2nd or 3rd in healing. If there are no dedeicated healers I'm the highest healing person as well. I am also the bane to enemy sorc/sages, because as the same class, I know what we are capable of, I have the same range, and therefore I will do everything to shut them off completely. (skill point into 2 more seconds of Mind Snap -- its very worthy!) For that much contribution for the team, I pay the price of being vulnerable in so many scenarios. It's just what you have to understand, and accept.... IMO. My motto for the Sorc/Sage class would be: "My job is to support everyone -- and for that, everyone must support me" Edited August 11, 2012 by kweassa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steele_dk Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Good sir, while I absolutely agree with you regarding the balance of sorc/sage in that we definitely need something done to us to improve competitive viability your gear is horribly optimised. When you're closing in on BiS (Best in Slot) you're going to have 18-19k hp. If you take a look at your gear and find mods with 64 (or 61, cant remember sorry ) and 12 secondary (crit,power) you have found a huge flaw in your equipment. I'm not saying all sorc/sages are supposed to min/max gear to exchange for mods with lower main stat higher secondary (39 power) but in order to be properly WH+augmented with gear thats what you need to do. Personally I am 3 slots + 2 PvE armorings wrist/belt away from BiS and my bonus damage is hovering around (at work no exact values sorry) 950 - when I'm fully optimised I will have over 1000 power, with bonus damage not far behind. I absolutely agree in that we can not handle certain classes without massive help from your team and I despite a game built around dependancy eliminating individual skillcap - no matter. There's no class in the game (other than possibly Lethality GS/Snipers) that can out damage me in a warzone. The problem, I feel, is that while our total damage is nothing short of amazing our effective damage is far behind any of the other classes - all our builds depending on long DoTs makes sure of that. Hey m8, reason i have 21.5k hp is i am a healer. 100 more willpower here and there aint gonna save me from the great burst dmg some classes put out when i am stunned or interupted. I have to stack up this much hp just to be able to do my job long enough on the battlefield before i get killed. I swap to willpower stimpack when i am not focused but lets just say i havent done that i long while I dont really care at this point what others think about the class or telling l2p etc. the ones that are playing everyday knows something is not balanced here. Seems to me the current situation (from pvp healer point of view) is that if you get focused, Operative healers have their great instant heals going on for them plus obviously stealth going under the radar, Merc healers got the toughest armor and uninteruptable casts during their energy shield going, and sorcs got the opposite, weakest armor, easiests heals to interupt and the supposely only tool we can use is to kite, which is quite an idiotic design it self as we have to stop to heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegparty Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) This pretty much hits the nail on the head. Can I get top heals and damage as a sorc? Yes. Can I 1v1 most people? Yes. Can I do significantly better healing and damage, get more kills, and do considerably more for my team as an op healer, PT or mara? Yes. Saying that good players will be good as a sorc is a no brainer- but when you can drop sorc and do considerably more as another class there's a clear balancing issue. I don't think anyone saying sorcs are poor in rated was saying 'sorcs blow at low levels' or 'two sorcs focusing together on vent won't be able to crush pugs' which is all that the OP's really proved to be untrue. When OP can show us some vids of him and his buddy playing their marauders, and then some vids of them on their sorcs- at max level- we will see either the huge difference in how useful they are as we've predicted, or skill getting in the way of the class's potential. What we will not see is vids of sorcs dominating in ways that marauders cannot- provided the OP is in fact a great mara and a great sorc. Nailed it. I have a 50 sorc 80+ valor 50 pyro and a 39 mara.... I can change the game on my pyro and mara but I can only hope my team rocks on my sorc even when I hit 450k damage with top medals(I played the objectives). So many high ranked sorcs just rely on a good team and then say HEY LOOK AT ME IM GREAT. Its not you who is great.. your great moment is pulling someone from near death so THEY can crit down someone in 3 sec. You can annoy the other teams healers by putting dots on the whole team but... really... really? The other classes dont need nurfs but the sorc needs something... anything really to make a great player stay a sorc and not a great mara or pyro. Nurf the later and we will see major unsubs as evident in the first great Nerf to Sorc moment in SWTOR history. The nurf does not work. Find a new way to balance. Edited August 11, 2012 by Kegparty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrias Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) And you stumble upon one of many REAL reasons for so many "OP" class threads, and it has little to do with player skill. One person plays a class in PvP at a low level, and finds that they have one experience. Another player plays at max level and at the very edge of the gear curve, against equally geared people, and they proffer an entirely different experience. I can't comment about how a sub 30s Sage fares in PvP, but I do recall getting a lot of the important skills I still use in PvP now, pretty early in my development while soloing. As a result, they ought to play reasonably well in the early stages. There's no such thing as "overall balance", as some classes do better in different level/gear brackets, dependent upon when they get their skills, and how well they scale with stats. It's also worth noting that you are an experienced PvP player, as you mention that this is an alt for you. You will know how to counter other classes, and what to do in order to do well. This will put you at an advantage in lowbie PvP straight away. TLDR: Please, please, please, for the love of all that is good, can people stop comparing their experiences playing their decked out lvl 50 against their lowbie of another class, and surmise based on that experience how good the lowbie class is at it's later stages. It only has a marginally higher accuracy rate than the person who has studied the skills online and based their opinion on that alone (which to my mind, is very slim). Edited August 11, 2012 by Tyrias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidichIorian Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) "My job is to support everyone -- and for that, everyone must support me" That view is IMO only an outcome of the current state. No one would have refered to a dps sorc as a "utility class" pre-1.2 but post-1.2 it's all of a sudden not a pure dps anymore. You know, a good deal of people rolled sorcs pre-1.2 and did it so that they could be DPS. A lot of people are probably also being fooled by how similar classes work in other MMO's. No one wants to be the guy who throws bubbles on people, if anything it should fall under healing duties. Not to mention that you can't waste force on bubbles for other people if you are playing madness. On top of that there's the requirement that you are in a suitable group. The only way of making sure that a sorc will fit in is to play rated then since that's the only place where you can optimize a sorc friendly enviroment. The catch 22 here is that sorc is low on many rated teams' wishlists. Even if you go in with a premade in a normal warzone there's the risk that the four randoms you get are sorcs too, which in 90 % of the cases will mean that your team, now consisting of five sorcs, will get rolled. God forbid that you have a friend who also plays sorc, you won't play together. What kind of balance is that, having to rely on luck and that you are the only sorc in the game to be able to win, or even stand a chance? Edited August 12, 2012 by MidichIorian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubari Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Do what I did ....Reroll as a PyroTech.....The game became fun again. It's amazing what the difference is between a Sorc and a Pyro BH. Seeing as they are both ranged classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FodderofCannon Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 People just have to understand and accept that each classes are different. Yeah some are good, some are just not so good. They are different. NO but really? Even in a DPS spec their multi-role nature really shines out... Despite just using short-cast basic heals, a crit will easily dish out 2k+ HP per pop... For some reason people only seem to use the 'Rescue' skill extensively in Huttball only, but in large scale engagements a combo of slow/mez to the enemy, and a quick target switch to friendly, Rescue, shielding, and few bursts of heals make you a very capable evac-man. Especially if you have the sense to use different levels in the terrain. You can provide temporary relief to a teammate focused by melees, by jumping in, activating the AoE knock, and then getting out.. Dishing out multiple shots of Weaken mind to ALL of the enemy within range, and despite its low in damage, accumulated damage will at some point start coming in heavy to all of the enemies. An extra shot of AoE attacks are also provided... and etc etc.. The thing is, this versatile multi-role capacity comes at a price of being squishy, and clear limtations in handling focused enemy attacks. Therefore, to achieve success the player must achieve contradicting objectives, which is to make all the difference one person can, but at the same time avoid drawing attention to oneself... and in many cases this requires a lot of experience. Positioning is everything with a Sorc/sage, and once the enemies perceive you as a major threat, then you require that much help from your friendlies as well -- unlike some "solo" type of enemies which can walk away from a fight by oneself. So your saying the sorc is balanced around their capability to short cast heal and have a friendly pull? For those two abilities they get to be the squishiest class in the game with no burst damage?? Really?? I have a sage of my own, and while I do practice as much as I can to prepare myself for 1vs1 confrontations, still it is in may cases very difficult. In many cases, with my hybrid DPS spec I'm the highest damage dealer, and at the same time 2nd or 3rd in healing. If there are no dedeicated healers I'm the highest healing person as well. I am also the bane to enemy sorc/sages, because as the same class, I know what we are capable of, I have the same range, and therefore I will do everything to shut them off completely. (skill point into 2 more seconds of Mind Snap -- its very worthy!) If you are the highest damage dealer you either have a tank and healer supporting you or the dps on the other team doesn't have the slightest idea about how this game works. Cause if I see a dps sorc on my sent or pt or shadow I gun you down in seconds. Only if guarded and being healed might I think about killing another target. The only situation where this might not be the case is in pugs where you can spam dots and aoe without being noticed. But as I said, any decent dps class will target you first. Cause you die, and you die quickly. Or you run away, and I kill something else. For that much contribution for the team, I pay the price of being vulnerable in so many scenarios. It's just what you have to understand, and accept.... IMO. What contribution? Only if defended heavily are dps sorc dangerous. Except any dps class that is heavily defended is dangerous, the only thing dps sorc brings is a "tiny" bit of healing and a friendly pull. That's really it. They do have sustained damage so in a long fight they start to make a difference, but really that's also another reason why they should die first. Why bother? Just roll a sent or PT and destroy stuff with far more efficiency. Every class is better if supporting and being supported, the sorc's few extra powers are not really worth the loss of survivability and burst damage that other dps classes provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssfbistimg Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 To everyone who keeps saying just re-roll marauder or PT, answer is no. I have to much fun killing them with my so called underpowered Sage. Keep thinking We are useless and easy kills. And I'll continue to enjoy my class everyday I log in. There's nothing more enjoyable in this game then to see all the horrible FOTM re-rollers come at me just to watch them either run away or die. There is no reason for me to re-roll. I find nothing wrong with my class. The same cant be said about my 50 Commando DPS, that class is just useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwitchWINs Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Agreed, in my guild 3 sorcs including myself are 2600-3k RWZ rated. The class is amazing if played right but most just don't know how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malkavier Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I specced my Sorc heals and find myself near the top of the dps AND heal charts (sub-50 of course). I do wish they would now un-nerf the Madness/CL Hybrid spec now that there is appropriate gear, etc to compensate (unlike before, when people rolled a mix of PvE and PvP gear due to Expertise being broken). Even the player hitpoints have gone way up compared to before the Hybrid nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steele_dk Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) I find nothing wrong with my class. The class is amazing if played right but most just don't know how. I think ive replied to you bastion guy before (btw your signature is broken) In all respect, just because you guys think the class is fine or think others are playing it bad doesnt mean the class is balanced or not. I think you'll find the general feel of the sorc class is that it can use some tweaks. If not, you have obviously not participated in the Official Feedback thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=505808 13 pages of ppl naming survivability main concern in pvp. This may be only a small thread compared to all other sorc threads on the forum (like this one) but here the question is the same and all the answers are the same. If youre a great player you can properly do good on a sorc with lot of work. But what you can do good on a sorc you can do great on other classes. Edited August 13, 2012 by Steele_dk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegparty Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) +1 for survive if your role is a support class then you need a bit more of it. Maybe something similar to the multiple other classes cloak abilities. After all they are casters. Edited August 13, 2012 by Kegparty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrrion Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 There's nothing more enjoyable in this game then to see all the horrible FOTM re-rollers come at me just to watch them either run away or die. There is no reason for me to re-roll. I find nothing wrong with my class. No offence but your problem is you have played the worst two classes at endgame. It would appear that you don't have any concept of what it is actually like to play other classes like Pyro/Mara etc. Though I see your sniper is making progress, but the problem there is that sniper is closest thing to a natural counter for a Mara so you will likely think after playing sniper at endgame that Maras need a buff Anyone can beat bads, re-rollers with no gear. In BM gear on my Sentinel and on my Pyrotech I can destroy vastly better geared Sorc/Sage who are good and "known" players, in part because I played Sorc myself for such a long time. There are a few who beat me but they tend to be extremely skilled, lucky or have finished their min/maxing (and done it right). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clanner Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Sooo, how close to Level 50 PvP now? When can we expect to hear any new results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I If youre a great player you can properly do good on a sorc with lot of work. But what you can do good on a sorc you can do great on other classes. I agree, but still. When you are a heal hyrbid sorc and you solo someone in an OP class it's a pretty big adrenaline rush. It wouldn't be as rewarding on an FOTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeochins Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I agree, but still. When you are a heal hyrbid sorc and you solo someone in an OP class it's a pretty big adrenaline rush. It wouldn't be as rewarding on an FOTM No, it wouldn't be as rewarding on a FOTM. But what is rewarding is going into a match and annihilating 2 sorcerers on their team making you worth 2 of their players. No matter what they do you will always be trading players at objectives better than they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) No, it wouldn't be as rewarding on a FOTM. But what is rewarding is going into a match and annihilating 2 sorcerers on their team making you worth 2 of their players. No matter what they do you will always be trading players at objectives better than they can. You won't solo me and another competent sorc at once unless we're stupid enough to stand together for your lolsmash crits. I can take most mars/sents to at least half health unless my CDs are all spent. The real problem I have is undying rage. At that point they are low health, but DPSing is a waste - and my defensive/cc's are all blown so I'm stuck. Force speed run if it's up, undying rage smartly used is very powerful. Warzones aren't about solo-ing. Even rateds. If you annihilate two sorcs at once, they are bad (at least then), bottom line. PS: Bioware please buff sorcs/sages thanks Edited August 20, 2012 by islander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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