What F2P Really does to a game..!!

[Bulwyf]

Regarding smaug not being the last ...

 

Fine .... I stand corrected. Please dont use that to discredit the gist of the post which does say that F2P can work provided certain principles are maintained.

 

Don't worry, I specifically said I wasn't addressing the rest of the post but simply the part about Smaug being incorrect.

 

And btw I agree that F2P can work, and work quite well if I may say, as long as certain principles are kept.

[Jachen]

There is no defense here for what Lotro has done with it's store . Half these people on the forum must be lying about having ever played the game. To come on and say that pretty much only cosmetic things are for sale , are you crazy ?

 

Take a look at the huge legendary section : legacy scrolls, tier up scrolls, relic removal, and actual relics basically everything concerning your key piece of equipment in the game

 

Monsterplay section : traits , skills, class abilities , cc breakers , etc etc : just about everything is for sale

 

Virtues : all for sale

 

Stat Tomes : incredibly difficult to obtain in game , only in there as a token gesture.

 

Lotro is a gear based game and many people like to max their character : its pretty much impossible to do this without using the shop . To do it on all your alts would be downright impossible even if you did nothing but play Lotro all day.

[dandamanno]

So unless Turbine radically changed in the last year with the store then the OP is completely wrong at least with LOTRO. I do know that the new owners of Star Trek Online also went F2P and their store had some definite P2W ships you could only get on the store that were literally better than anything you could get in the game.

 

They haven't. You can still completely ignore the store and no one will have any meaningfull advantage over you in any content that matters.

 

The exception being the store bought potions allowable in the moors. That should be dissallowed. But we all know Turbine cares very little about PvMP.

[leathfuil]

Regarding smaug not being the last ...

 

Fine .... I stand corrected. Please dont use that to discredit the gist of the post which does say that F2P can work provided certain principles are maintained.

 

It's (apparently) debatable whether Smaug was the last. I'm pretty sure there are passages in "The Hobbit" that strongly indicate, if not outright state that he was the last dragon.

 

From what I recall Turbine latched onto the description of Smaug as the last of the great dragons to justify the Draigoch raid, saying that Draigoch is some putsy lesser dragon, but I always felt like Tolkien used great as kind of an honorific applied to all dragons. Like calling a particular T-Rex the last of the mighty dinosaurs or something.

 

I've also always felt that if Draigoch is just a lesser dragon, then hunters should be able to one-shot him with Bard's Arrow.

[NoxiousAlby]

IMO, grinding virtues is hardly a win. Most people wait till they outlevel the area then come back later so they can faceroll the content and kill 300 boars quickly. To me, to qualify for P2W it has to be helping you complete challenging content DIRECTLY. Maybe this is where our definitions diverge.

 

No one looks at other peoples virtues and says "Man you are level 14 in Zeal! You must really know what you are doing!"

 

Basicly P2W takes the Time & Effort out of earning a reward, it's granted by instant gratification through spending real dollars. Usually this doesnt bother me as I have disposable income, i'm just dissapointed that it will happen in this game. I have no doubt that the store will expand to items of real value, you may never be able to directly buy a BIS weapon but have no doubt there will be some sort of gambling game where if you pump through $50-$100 you can get one. Most F2P stores have these gambling games, big money makers

[Burtlebe]

There is no defense here for what Lotro has done with it's store . Half these people on the forum must be lying about having ever played the game. To come on and say that pretty much only cosmetic things are for sale , are you crazy ?

 

Take a look at the huge legendary section : legacy scrolls, tier up scrolls, relic removal, and actual relics basically everything concerning your key piece of equipment in the game

 

Monsterplay section : traits , skills, class abilities , cc breakers , etc etc : just about everything is for sale

 

Virtues : all for sale

 

Stat Tomes : incredibly difficult to obtain in game , only in there as a token gesture.

 

Lotro is a gear based game and many people like to max their character : its pretty much impossible to do this without using the shop . To do it on all your alts would be downright impossible even if you did nothing but play Lotro all day.

 

I have 6 max chars and never bought anything from the store but cosmetic stuff, some mounts more bank slots and character slots. I never had any issues and actually leveled 2 of every crafting class with max guild affection. Also had 3 farmers over two accounts both sub accounts. I have never seen anything in that store that I felt I had to have to compete. Maybe some people do but I dont. Does it really matter at this point?

 

TOR is going F2P. You have two options give it a try or leave. I dont mean that to be harsh but that is where we are now. People need to accept this and move on or pack and leave and know that I personnally wish you all the best.

[leathfuil]

There is no defense here for what Lotro has done with it's store . Half these people on the forum must be lying about having ever played the game. To come on and say that pretty much only cosmetic things are for sale , are you crazy ?

 

Take a look at the huge legendary section : legacy scrolls, tier up scrolls, relic removal, and actual relics basically everything concerning your key piece of equipment in the game

 

Monsterplay section : traits , skills, class abilities , cc breakers , etc etc : just about everything is for sale

 

Virtues : all for sale

 

Stat Tomes : incredibly difficult to obtain in game , only in there as a token gesture.

 

Lotro is a gear based game and many people like to max their character : its pretty much impossible to do this without using the shop . To do it on all your alts would be downright impossible even if you did nothing but play Lotro all day.

 

Don't forget Starlit Crystals! Creating an item that improves everything about your LI (and you can use three of them on one item!) just so you can sell it in the store, but making it a rare raid drop to justify it, is, to me, indefensible.

[Vellem]

There is no defense here for what Lotro has done with it's store . Half these people on the forum must be lying about having ever played the game. To come on and say that pretty much only cosmetic things are for sale , are you crazy ?

 

Take a look at the huge legendary section : legacy scrolls, tier up scrolls, relic removal, and actual relics basically everything concerning your key piece of equipment in the game

 

Monsterplay section : traits , skills, class abilities , cc breakers , etc etc : just about everything is for sale

 

Virtues : all for sale

 

Stat Tomes : incredibly difficult to obtain in game , only in there as a token gesture.

 

Lotro is a gear based game and many people like to max their character : its pretty much impossible to do this without using the shop . To do it on all your alts would be downright impossible even if you did nothing but play Lotro all day.

 

Yup. I would take it even further and add "Convenience" things as well. I'm already paying for a sub, but you want me to pay an additional $10 on top of that for an "improved" barter wallet? Something that will give you half a dozen (maybe a little bit more if you are lucky) inventory spaces. Really? Shouldn't that be something that would covered under the cost of my subscription? Why is more bag space a "Convenience" (lotro taught me to hate that word now) there but a simple game improvement in other MMO's? It's simple greed and most f2p MMO's do it. They will nickle and dime you to death. Don't tell me I don't need it, if you are going to add it, add it for everyone. Say I'm entitled? I'd rather pay my $15 a month in a sub only game and get everything included rather than have to buy it bit by bit even if I still am paying for a sub in a hybrid f2p game.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Vellem

[dandamanno]

To come on and say that pretty much only cosmetic things are for sale , are you crazy ?

 

[stuff in store]

 

Lotro is a gear based game and many people like to max their character : its pretty much impossible to do this without using the shop . To do it on all your alts would be downright impossible even if you did nothing but play Lotro all day.

 

I have 2 characters that are max level with max stuff (okay no orthanc gear but that's cause I hate long boring raids) and I have never used the store bought stuff to get there. It has been 1 year since RoI and about 6 months since great river. That is PLENTY of time to gear up without using store bought enhancements. I play for maybe 7-10 hours a week. I agree that to do it on all possible alts would require lots of time.

 

Yes it's a grind. But lets' recall what happens when there is almost no grind. People get bored and leave. Do the words "At 50, fully geared, have nothing to do." sound familiar? In a gear based game people need a way to perpetually increase their character stats, even if it is grindy.

 

Anyway, I've made all my points. F2P hybrid isn't nearly as bad as some make it out to be. But if you hate it don't play the game.

[ThrillInstructor]

A game going F2P is like a country going fascist dictatorship. This time everything will be better: A nicer dictator, bigger parades, more successful wars and -of course- a brighter future for everybody.

 

And at first everything seems to be working fine, but as time goes on more and more people realize that even the burden of a normal life becomes unbearable....but there is no way back because you live in a dictatorship. And those hardly ever vanish without going utterly and completely broke first.

 

The original post describes only to well where this game is headed to. But this time everything will be different: A nicer shop, more content, better PvP and -of course- more fun at fairer prices for everybody.

 

Sure.......

Edited August 1, 2012 by ThrillInstructor

[AidenCast]

Even though I am extremely hacked off about this (I cancelled my sub on principle, I swore after I stuck with Lotro to RoI that I would never play a F2P game again) reading some of these threads makes me laugh remembering the slating me and others got on the EU Lotro forums when it was announced on that game and all the dewy eyed posts about how Turbine were too ethical to do anything bad and how it would be a rebirth for the game. Strangely a lot of the "defenders" at the time have since revised their opinions and many now have become as anti F2P as the original "doom and gloomers". Edited August 1, 2012 by AidenCast

[Leggomy]

Yup. I would take it even further and add "Convenience" things as well. I'm already paying for a sub, but you want me to pay an additional $10 on top of that for an "improved" barter wallet? Something that will give you half a dozen (maybe a little bit more if you are lucky) inventory spaces. Really? Shouldn't that be something that would covered under the cost of my subscription? Why is more bag space a "Convenience" (lotro taught me to hate that word now) there but a simple game improvement in other MMO's? It's simple greed and most f2p MMO's do it. They will nickle and dime you to death. Don't tell me I don't need it, if you are going to add it, add it for everyone. Say I'm entitled? I'd rather pay my $15 a month in a sub only game and get everything included rather than have to buy it bit by bit even if I still am paying for a sub in a hybrid f2p game.

 

You are no worse off than before. You still have your bags. If you want the barter wallet well that costs. There was no barter wallet before so you wont see a difference. Same with the inventory bags. You got along for years without that 6th bag why all the sudden now is it life or death you have it?

 

Turbine is owned by one of the biggest corporations in the USA (warner brothers). Their single and only intent is to make money and as much as they possibly can. You pay your $15 and you get everything you had before the store came into the game. It is you feel entitled. You think you entitled to everything new for the same base $15. The fact is you are only entitled to what you had before the f2p switch. not the new stuff.

[islander]

Congratulations EA, everything you touch from Westwood Studios to Bioware turns in to ...you know what.

 

This. Just stop making MMORPG's already. You've failed, a lot.

 

I agree with the OP also. It'll start out harmless but check back a year from November and see if you still agree then. I quit LOTRO the day it went F2P/Sub based. I'll quit this game as well as soon as another MMORPG catches my interest.

[Nippon]

You can not tell me what should I do or not do. None of you QQers out there who are against F2P/P2W, can come up with one logical explanation as to why, in your eyes, it is unfair that I can get the same gear as you paying money rather then spending time in the game yet it is totally fair to you that you can spend 12 hours a day playing and have an unfair advantage over others that can only play 2 hours a day.

 

TBH...

 

I have not played anymore than 3-5 hours a day since launch and have 4 BH / Campaign geared characters only obtainable from playing and doing the End Game content. I suppose some like a challenge , something to aim for and a reward at the end, others make excuses and just want to buy the best stuff because they are incapable of completing the content. TBH that is your only excuse for needing to buy any gear. If you cant do End-game in SWTOR, then go ahead, pay £10 for gear i can obtain in 2 hours of play, this is one of the easiest MMOs on the market for gearing up....

 

You have your opinion...

 

That is mine.

[Vellem]

You are no worse off than before. You still have your bags. If you want the barter wallet well that costs. There was no barter wallet before so you wont see a difference. Same with the inventory bags. You got along for years without that 6th bag why all the sudden now is it life or death you have it?

 

Turbine is owned by one of the biggest corporations in the USA (warner brothers). Their single and only intent is to make money and as much as they possibly can. You pay your $15 and you get everything you had before the store came into the game. It is you feel entitled. You think you entitled to everything new for the same base $15. The fact is you are only entitled to what you had before the f2p switch. not the new stuff.

 

Which is why I said I will take my money and play a game that adds that stuff over time to improve their game at no extra cost to me. Including new stuff. If you want to play a game where you have to decide whether or not you want to spend extra money on a new "Convenience" item every time something new is added to the store, that is fine. I'll play the game where I don't have to make that choice because it is added to the game for everyone to enjoy and make the game better and is already included in the cost of my subscription.

[Leggomy]

Which is why I said I will take my money and play a game that adds that stuff over time to improve their game at no extra cost to me. Including new stuff. If you want to play a game where you have to decide whether or not you want to spend extra money on a new "Convenience" item every time something new is added to the store, that is fine. I'll play the game where I don't have to make that choice because it is added to the game for everyone to enjoy and make the game better and is already included in the cost of my subscription.

 

So turbine had added nothing new since the f2p launch free for VIPs? Seriously you can say that with a straight face? Also they give you 500 points a month for paying your sub. Why cant you just use those points?

[AidenCast]

So turbine had added nothing new since the f2p launch free for VIPs? Seriously you can say that with a straight face? Also they give you 500 points a month for paying your sub. Why cant you just use those points?

 

Attention ladies and gentlemen "the 500 points defence" has made its entrance in the thread as a special guest appearance from the heavily censured Lotro Official Forums.

Edited August 1, 2012 by AidenCast

[AidenCast]

For the record 500 TP bought you squat when F2P launched and from what I've seen pretty much ...... squat now as well.

[Celebrus]

The OP has really said it well.

 

Anyone can cook up any ideas they have for why they are going f2p, your theories on how f2P will benefit us gamers are simply false. They aren't going f2p to benefit us, they are going f2p to generate more revenue, and one way to do that is to coax subscribers into paying more money than their monthly fee in order to access cash shop material.

 

Make no mistake people, they aren't doing this out of the kindness of their heart to improve the game for anyone other than themselves. The game isn't generating enough revenue with the basic subscription model, and they are banking on this hybrid model increasing their income from the game.

 

Any benefits to us (if there actually end up being any, which I doubt) are unintended accidents.

[Nippon]

I know a few sad individuals that farmed instances for hours on end, days on end for these and got one tier 3 tome between them for what was combined I'd guess hundreds of hours of playing.

 

But i bet you could buy one from the store in 2 seconds flat for a £1...?

 

TBH as i said in my OP, I did play LOTRO and F2P can work and be good. I just do not trust EA to not go beyond the boundaries. Turbine made loads of promises and they did stick to them, they never really added anything to the store that made a character OP or P2W....

 

What they did was turn the game into such a mind numbing grind fest that to get anything to max level required SOME store purchases, unless of course you could grind endless skirmishes or dungeons 12 hours a day, (basically the F2P brigade) I whole heartily agree that most the items were not needed to play the game....

 

If all you wanted to do was grind endless crap over and over and over again to obtain that 1 good scroll that leveled your legendary Tiers....Believe me i was their and did it and SWTOR will be no different.

 

F2P is absolutely fine if its cosmetic, minor trinkets, ui add-ons, stuff that does not really affect the game or a characters stats, and that does not turn all Endgame into a mind numbing grind. I could not even careless if people could buy their Endgame gear in a Weird color, that separated it from in game drops, just so everyone knows that that gear was purchased, and the player Payed2Win because they are incapable of finishing a HM OP.

 

The problem is EA will not stop there, unless someone can point me to any game they have not ripped people off in.....

[AidenCast]

The problem is EA will not stop there, unless someone can point me to any game they have not ripped people off in.....

 

The analogy of the frog in hot water sums up pretty well what happens to F2P stores imo.

[Vellem]

So turbine had added nothing new since the f2p launch free for VIPs? Seriously you can say that with a straight face? Also they give you 500 points a month for paying your sub. Why cant you just use those points?

 

What have they added exactly that is free only for VIP's? Quest packs? That is the only thing I can think of off the top of my head. That 500 points doesn't go very far if you have multiple alts. Even if you get an account wide item like the wallet, that is two months worth of points. For an improvement to an item that should have been released in the improved state to begin with. You and I have different ideas of value.

[HobbeWan]

There is no defense here for what Lotro has done with it's store . Half these people on the forum must be lying about having ever played the game. To come on and say that pretty much only cosmetic things are for sale , are you crazy ?

 

Nope ... but is it essentials.

 

Take a look at the huge legendary section : legacy scrolls, tier up scrolls, relic removal, and actual relics basically everything concerning your key piece of equipment in the game

True but not essential ... you could buy some on the AH and through skirmishes & rewards- some were grindable.

 

Monsterplay section : traits , skills, class abilities , cc breakers , etc etc : just about everything is for sale

Irrelevant. Monsterplay in LOTRO was a sideshow. When codemasters originally developed the game they unashamedly said that PvP was of a zero priority. There are no factions for a PvP scenario in lotro. Monsterplay doesnt count IMHO.

 

Virtues : all for sale

 

But gettable through acheivements - especially in raids for the extras..

 

Stat Tomes : incredibly difficult to obtain in game , only in there as a token gesture.

 

And also unimportant if u get the right gear ... its a small benefit which wont affect enjoyment in raids.

 

Lotro is a gear based game and many people like to max their character : its pretty much impossible to do this without using the shop . To do it on all your alts would be downright impossible even if you did nothing but play Lotro all day.

 

I dont dispute what u say from a basic point but there were workarounds - but when comparing spending £10 per month on a sub and the odd bit on grinding for TP then its actually cost effective if u dont waste it on crap like the pointless mount or the apperance gear.

 

Honest I raided on the evernight server with a hunter and did all instances clearing OD HM and the draighlogh one before wanting to try a different game.

 

Just be wise.

 

Back to a previous post. Its not this that will change the game ... its how they change the new expansion stuff .... that will make it or break it.

[Carnunsas]

Im imagining you played from day one similar to me, i had a lifetime and didnt really need to spend my points either. In the store you used tokens to upgrade virtues, stats, level legendary tiers quicker and all this cost tokens. To seasoned players it was not really noticeable, Ie: players that had been around for 4 years prior to F2P.

 

Lets not forget SWTOR has been here for 9 months. It is still basics, and does not have features that LOTRO or WOW has to this day.

 

How do you think these will be added to the game. LOTRO wasnt probably the best example i could give of a bad F2P simply because of the length of game-time the Subscribers had prior to it going F2P. Most seasoned players did not notice it because they had there banks, characters, had acquired most the end game gear and grinded their virtues and deeds.

 

That is not the case here.

 

And I will give another example of EA and their need to take your money. As i said they do not care about LORE.

 

So August comes round, Most of us will pick up our 2000 odd tokens and go buy our new cool gear or what ever other trinkets are for sale, then the money making starts.

 

September 1st comes, you are awarded 1000 tokens for being a paying subscriber and they have added +10 stat boosts to the store, so you spend 500 on these, and another 500 on other items, 3rd week, Store exclusive. Get +10 stat items Half price...???

 

Ow man i just spent all my tokens, that's a good deal, how much are tokens, ow they got a deal on, get 1000 tokens for £10. Cool i can get all my stuff cheap....But wait, you just paid £25 for a months game time.

 

Do you see where this is going, and LOTOR is no different. As i said, to a seasoned player it was not so noticeable, I maybe spent £5-£7 on the odd month in store and was a Lifetime subscriber so got a lot of tokens free.

 

That does not exist here and the game is relatively tiny compared to what they can add via this store. SWTOR has none of the basic features WOW and LOTRO have, Guild buildings, Interior design etc etc etc. How do you think that will be implemented.

 

Trust me EA will give you tokens but they will make sure there are way for you to spend them the day you get them, then make 100s of offers over the following weeks to get you to spend EXTRA money.

 

This is a bad thing because.....???

 

I'd be more concerned if they didn't provide things to spend on like say, oh I don't know ... the collector's edition store.

I understand it won't work but honestly my concern is nothing to do with being spoiled for choice. More worried about the players the game will attract.

 

I will keep my sub and hope the game works. Honestly though in all likelihood I will, unfortunately, be gone after a couple of months. I don't like the idea of having to spend money additional to a sub to get what I want (I will need a sub to do ops).

 

Sad day for me when they made the announcement, it was like swtor told me they talked to the doctor and found out it is terminally ill. I will enjoy what little time it has left before the inevitable. I'm sure they will make money, though I fear it won't be my money.

[Leggomy]

For the record 500 TP bought you squat when F2P launched and from what I've seen pretty much ...... squat now as well.

 

500 TP is about $5. So they went from charging you $15 a month at most to $10 at most if you count the points yet people still complain. Its why people call this the entitlement generation. Everyone wants something for nothing. Never happy with what they have but always envious of others.