Empire and Light Side

[FlashbackJon]

C) It is possible to be a light side Sith, you're just exposing weakness that will be used against you. The only thing stopping you from doing it is death. If you're strong enough to survive doing it, so be it.

This. If you've got the strength, then it's just strength > power > victory > freedom.

 

No one's going to stand on ceremony if they can't match your strength. This is the Sith, after all. You know the Golden Rule, right? He who has the gold, makes the rules? Only in this case, the gold is strength and the rules are... this metaphor isn't going all that great...

[Bromoc]

So i decided to play a lite side Sith Sorcerer just to explore this. I have to admit this Calming wrapping Anger just might make me sith after all. But still light side Sith. I am not feeling this violates the Sith teachings in any way. I am seeing a personal advatage here. An Elightened Self Interest if you will.

 

In my personal life I always thought myself to uphold the values of the Jedi. but in action Im think i am a light side sith. or maybe somethimg else..

 

a Jithi

[Orazio]

A couple of observations.

 

1.) The LS sith doesnt mean you forsake the Sith Teaching. The philosophy is still the same, and nowherein there does it say to have power you have to be cruel. That comes the culture. That is how you advance in Sith society. The sith want to control (not enslave) everything. So if you do it by being merciful sometimes that is not contrary to their teachings.

 

2.) There is no LS and DS powers. The Sith teach that nothing is taboo. Thats why they use a lot of force powers that Jedi dont. Extreme emotion (any emotion, not just fear, rage, and anger) is needed for some of the stronger force powers. In the later books NJO and Fate of the Jedi this is very apparent. Luke can use any force power the Dark Lords can use. He just choses not to because of the Jedi religious belief system.

 

2.) Also for the game even if you did leave the sith order and no longer followed Sith teaching you would still be a member of the Sith Empire. And the lords would keep you around as long as you were still advancing their goals. So even if you were a Jedi they would keep sending you on missions and let you run around thinking you were better than them. The culture would have them just kill you when you were no longer useful.

[lokdron]

A couple of observations.

 

1.) The LS sith doesnt mean you forsake the Sith Teaching. The philosophy is still the same, and nowherein there does it say to have power you have to be cruel. That comes the culture. That is how you advance in Sith society. The sith want to control (not enslave) everything. So if you do it by being merciful sometimes that is not contrary to their teachings.

 

2.) There is no LS and DS powers. The Sith teach that nothing is taboo. Thats why they use a lot of force powers that Jedi dont. Extreme emotion (any emotion, not just fear, rage, and anger) is needed for some of the stronger force powers. In the later books NJO and Fate of the Jedi this is very apparent. Luke can use any force power the Dark Lords can use. He just choses not to because of the Jedi religious belief system.

 

2.) Also for the game even if you did leave the sith order and no longer followed Sith teaching you would still be a member of the Sith Empire. And the lords would keep you around as long as you were still advancing their goals. So even if you were a Jedi they would keep sending you on missions and let you run around thinking you were better than them. The culture would have them just kill you when you were no longer useful.

 

You are wrong the sith consider the light side heretical hell an npc refers to the light as a rot surronding you. Also if sith ever find out your light side.. guess what they will do.. they will kill you. Hell the dark side sith warrior can go on a light side sith witch hunt to root out heresy they even mention in the story that you are hiding your true alignment from your fellow sith because if they find out they will kill you. What do you think will happen if you told baras you are light side? Also if you make jaesa LS you lie to baras that she has fallen to the dark hell the sith warrior even says that they will align with light jaesa and when nomen karr falls to the dark side in the SW story guess what the LS SW does.. he sends nomen back to the jedi to be rehibilated to the light. A sith would NEVER DO THAT since the jedi are the sith's most hated enemies and plus after that scene in my opinion you are traitor to the sith and the teachings.

 

Its like would you consider a dark jedi a jedi? Same applies to LS sith. You should remeber that the sith is a DARK SIDE religion their teachings and their code cannot align with the light since the sith teachings teach how the dark side breaks ones chains. The dark side version of the reflection says that the LS sith warrior should embrace passion, rage and love. And guess what the LS SW response is those emotions are useless and they cloud your judgement in my opinion that is a response of a jedi. The sith teach about embracing these emotions and LS sith reject these many times in their story I know because I played a LS sith to see what it is like. After playing LS sith they are no longer sith because the higher you go in the light scale you are starting to embrace concepts of the jedi which sith consider tainted and heretical.

 

I am not opposing people playing LS sith what I don't like is when people say that LS sith are still sith because they are not if you actually read the sith background and the sith religion. Bioware just gave us the option to be LS sith because it would interesting to play a good guy in a bad place where everyone else expects you to be evil and only think and care for only yourself.

Edited December 28, 2011 by lokdron

[Hammerreborn]

I feel like that ls sith is more showing loyalty to the empire rather than the siths teachings. Almost all (there are a few exceptions) further the empires goals instead of your own bloodthirsty desires. In the "this is your only ls/ds flashpoint options", when you choose to save the x, you are either gaining valuable captives for empires interrogation, or maintaining and not just throwing away staff and resources needlessly.

[Evolvana]

And become a Grey Sith / Grey Jedi, it would be interesting. They would need a new order, just for dark Jedi and Light Sith

[XargonWan]

And become a Grey Sith / Grey Jedi, it would be interesting. They would need a new order, just for dark Jedi and Light Sith

I'ts called Revanite, you can join it in Dromund Kaas for the Empire (I don't know with the Repubblic).

[NephilimNexus]

Some things to keep in mind...

 

1) There is the Empire and then there are the Sith. A good comparison would be to look at the political situation in China after it was taken over by the Manchurians (thus creating the phrase "Manchurian Candidate). There are often conflicts of interest between the Sith and those who's true loyalty is to the Empire. I suspect this is what happens when one tries to impose a system of medieval nobility (the Sith) on top of of an autocratic military junta (the Empire). The two do not really mesh well. After all, what is the actual military rank of Darth anyone? Colonel? General? How do they fit into the military hierarchy? Simply put, they don't. Their special status means that they are constantly stepping on toes within the actual Imperial military. I suspect that fear & the Force are the only things that keep them from getting shot in the back on a daily basis.

 

2) There are Sith and then there are the Dark Jedi. The Sith, as you all know, were originally an actual race of beings. They got so entrenched in the Dark Side, however, that they became Dark Jedi exclusively. Eventually, the terms became synonymous with each other. However, while all Sith may be Dark Jedi, not all Dark Jedi are Sith. A Dark Jedi can be of any species. That a non-Sith who is a Dark Jedi would think of themselves as Sith is simply a telling sign of how much power the Sith hold within the Empire. It's a mark of status or something.

 

Before that, though, the original Jedi were what is now known as Gray Jedi. That is they practiced both Light and Dark powers as needed, and held no allegiance to either. The problem was that eventually some/many of them ended up going entirely Dark Side, and thus the whole Jedi civil war thing, and afterward the remaining Jedi made a new rule forbidding using Dark Side powers, thus cementing this schizm forever.

 

A good analogy (that some may find flame war material, but I'm just being diverse) would be to compare the Vulcans & Romulans from Star Trek. They obviously share a common origin and both are capable of expressing great passions, even to the point of violence. And it is this point of violence where they split off, as the Vulcan's reaction to their potentially violent nature when emotional is to sever their ties to emotion entirely. The Romulans, meanwhile, embrace their emotions, claiming it gives them strength. Sound familiar, anyone?

 

The point being that, unlike the Sith, there is nothing forbidding a general purpose Dark Jedi from using the Light Side if they want to. They may prefer to use the Dark Side, but unlike the regular Jedi they have no rules against using the powers of the other team if it suits their purposes.

 

So yes, it is quite possible to have a Light Side character operating within the Empire.

 

Which then brings up "How does one have a Dark Side character within the Republic?" Well, not everyone in the Republic is a Jedi (or so I'm told) and for non-force users the Dark/Light issue is mostly moot, really, at least from the Jedi point of view. The Jedi have far more patience & leniency towards evil non-force users than those who even so much as dabble in the Dark Side.

 

Second, consider the sheer competitiveness & overbearing nature of the Sith. If one was a Dark Jedi, or even just a Gray Jedi, where would you rather be? As a Dark Jedi in the Empire, you are pretty much forced to join the ranks of the Sith, follow the Sith code, and deal with all the backstabbing political BS that goes with the whole Sith gig. But if you're a Dark Jedi, one who really understands that part about the Dark Side leading to freedom, then why would you want to become entangled with all that? Why not just head to the Republic instead? So long as you keep a low profile and avoid any Jedi sniffing you out, you can actually enjoy all that freedom the Dark Side is supposed to offer you and without having to join anyone's "special club" of sociopaths. You know, like using the Force to win at gambling & pick up chicks. Control works both ways, which is why ruling an Empire is a full time 24/7 job. Where's the freedom in that?

[CaptainMax]

There are a lot of interesting opinions here.

 

I'll throw in my two credits worth:

The "Grey Side", in the game, seems to be a fairly reasonable path. A "right tool for the right job" response to life that still allows for the occasional drift into Light 1 (arguably guys like Han or Lando) or Dark 1. It is fairly realistic, as such things go.

 

However...

While not as central as, say Lord of the Rings, "Star Wars" has a charming and endearing to some (and naive and annoying to others) tradition of moralistic exploration.

The Light Side (as I see it) has a classic "keep a cool head and be excellent to each other" vibe (that Jedi dogma takes to the occasional moralistic extreme) and the Dark Side (as I see it) has a harsher "keep a fiery heart and the ends justify the means" (which the Sith take to tyranical extremes) vibe.

 

But really, it's all just "The Force": the Universe and it's people in harmony experiencing the life cycle of their kind as appropriate.

 

The oft-referenced "dark side" (or as I like to call it, to seperate it from the Dark Side game mechanic, "the down side") comes when an individual taps into that harmony (the Force) agendizes it. Essentially, deciding personally or galactically that their narrower vision is better ("I should rule" or "my wife must never die"). The seductive part becomes obvious as the truly powerful rarely come to these conclusions arbitrarily. They believe in their "certain point of view".

 

The jedi agenda of non-agenda (but lots of moral judging) may have kept the order as a whole from the dark side in general, but insulated them to the point of aggressive passivity.

Perhaps the dark side is so hard to see because they had lost touch with the "humanity" that the dark side manifests from.

 

Now, all this is distinct from the jedi and sith faiths. Again just my opinion, but it could be argued that the means that these two faiths' approaches to the Force and it's down side may not be 100% indicitive of the Force itself.

 

My basis for this comes primarily from the filmic fate of Luke Skywalker who proved that jedi dogma had long since lost much of it's compassion and love.

He ran off half-cocked to save his friends and suffered a physical and emotional setback, to be sure. But he didn't let it break him. Contrary to jedi dogma he transcended the traditional downfalls and redeemed Darth-Freakin'-Vader.

Luke knew love and passion, but still lived in harmony.

 

In context of this game, I try to follow a similar example with either faction. As things are, now, commiting to Light or Dark points is worth my while. I accept that.

As a result, I have chosen to give each character I play a "counter point". A peice of the opposing philosophy that... enhances (and slows down)... my journey to either lightness or darkness.

A jedi who is a romantic or a sith warrior who gives failures a second chance to do better.

They accept these "flaws", so to speak, as part of the path to greater attunement to their side of the Force.

 

So, um, yeah... "Grey side" gear would be a good idea, but until then we have some cool options to make do.

Edited December 28, 2011 by CaptainMax

[Smokt]

Two different topics here.

Empire and Light Side

and

Sith and Light Side

 

Its quite easy to see how someone could be Empire and Light Side. Certainly not all allies of the Empire are willing. Quite a few are rebellious. Even then those that are willing may have some misgivings about the direction of the Empire or particular tactics on any given day. I.e. the choice to kill or capture a prisoner.

 

How a Sith can become "Light Side" is somewhat more difficult. I don't think they can become light side per say, but they can walk a middle ground as evidenced by the quests on Dromund Kass at the Dark Temple. So yeah, PURE Light Side probably a little bit of an inconsistenancy for a pureblood Sith and probably should be rethought. Middle ground okay.

[Zuburan]

My thought is simply this.

 

Lightside Sith is looking out for the best of the Empire.

 

Darkside Sith is looking out simply for themselves/their own power.

 

It's how all my choices seem to play out when I'm playing my LS sith. Intruder in a Hutt Databank? Let him live and he'll funnel all the information to the Empire. (Light Side) ... Kill him and just lose all that potential (Dark Side).

 

None of my LS choices have made me a traitor to the Empire. I'm just not as quick to kill and see if I can get the best possible deal out for the Empire.

 

But just my two cents while looking at the quest choices.

[Revvion]

In my opinion the naming of the "light side" and "dark side" points is a bit unlucky in this situation. While it makes sense i suppose in a sw game it, it might have been more clear in this case if it was more something like "Hero points" (aka you do something good/nice) and "Villain points" (aka something evil/selfish).

[Orazio]

You are wrong the sith consider the light side heretical hell an npc refers to the light as a rot surronding you. Also if sith ever find out your light side.. guess what they will do.. they will kill you. Hell the dark side sith warrior can go on a light side sith witch hunt to root out heresy they even mention in the story that you are hiding your true alignment from your fellow sith because if they find out they will kill you. What do you think will happen if you told baras you are light side? Also if you make jaesa LS you lie to baras that she has fallen to the dark hell the sith warrior even says that they will align with light jaesa and when nomen karr falls to the dark side in the SW story guess what the LS SW does.. he sends nomen back to the jedi to be rehibilated to the light. A sith would NEVER DO THAT since the jedi are the sith's most hated enemies and plus after that scene in my opinion you are traitor to the sith and the teachings.

 

Its like would you consider a dark jedi a jedi? Same applies to LS sith. You should remeber that the sith is a DARK SIDE religion their teachings and their code cannot align with the light since the sith teachings teach how the dark side breaks ones chains. The dark side version of the reflection says that the LS sith warrior should embrace passion, rage and love. And guess what the LS SW response is those emotions are useless and they cloud your judgement in my opinion that is a response of a jedi. The sith teach about embracing these emotions and LS sith reject these many times in their story I know because I played a LS sith to see what it is like. After playing LS sith they are no longer sith because the higher you go in the light scale you are starting to embrace concepts of the jedi which sith consider tainted and heretical.

 

I am not opposing people playing LS sith what I don't like is when people say that LS sith are still sith because they are not if you actually read the sith background and the sith religion. Bioware just gave us the option to be LS sith because it would interesting to play a good guy in a bad place where everyone else expects you to be evil and only think and care for only yourself.

 

They Sith considered the Jedi teachings Hell, not the LS. the Sith believe that the force was a tool and anything that the Jedi could do they could do better. There was no force technique that was forbidden to the Sith. Thats the main point to Sith philosophy.

 

LS (as far as the game goes) is not about doing away with Sith teachings. It is about not being evil. Sith religion doesnt teach that you have to be evil. The ones that rise to power are usually evil, because most dictators are. Vader didnt stop being a Sith when he told the General not to fail him again. That would have been a LS choice for gameplay. Sith teach that you do what you think is best and if it works out bad you pay for it. If it works out well then you get rewarded.

 

The only way a Sith would start to hunt you down is if you start hurting their operations. Stealing from the empire, helping rebels, ect. If you start speaking out against their teaching then you will die. But how you use the force is what Sith teach. Not how you handle your interactions with people. If they challenge how you handle your interactions thats when they challenge you and you kill them in defense (so it is still not a DS choice). you can be a LS Sith and still embrace the Sith teachings, just not the current Sith culture.

[Daidarus]

Sorry.... this is BS...

Lightside Sith = Lore killer...

They only made that way so they would have more things to explorer....

it's 1000% impossible for a sith to be lightside.

IF anyone had read any of the Old Republic books, specially the Bane Trilogy would understand.

You are trained trou pain, suffering, agony. You either embrace the sith philosofy or you will perish....

 

This 2 sentence from siths better explain

 

"I am not a man of words. But I respect the power of words, for that is what transformed me. The words of the Sith Code. Others had heard them, contemplated them, and so on. But I understood them, and they changed me. For what was I before I heard those words? Nothing."

―Darth Bane, Dark Lord of the Sith

 

"Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you."

―Darth Plagueis

 

there is just NO WAY a lightside sith would survive. Specially... Dark Side emanate an aura.... There is only way to deny that aura, and that is trou Sith Sorcery. So if you don't have it... sorry, you die...

 

And futhermore.... the Dark Side powers are ONLY acessible trou the emotions... in other words... someone who isn't angry, hatred, and so on, is unable to cast a force lightning... so, it is just impossible to be lightside and use darkside powers...

 

This is best described when Bane did not embrace the dark side, and therefor he was unable to use the powers and was almost killed...

 

Another perfect example is when Exar Kun was denied of his lightside powers, becouse he had so much anger in him... but at the same time, not enough to be strong enough to save him self....

He had to fully embrace the darkside in order to survive... and thats a path that you cannot turn back...

to sum up...

Lightside Sith just dosen't exit...

 

I am pretty much a SW geek

I played everything game

I read every single book about the old republic

I read all the old republic comics

I read all the clone wars book

And even a few post empire books (I don't like that period very much).

 

There is just NO WAY a Lightside Sith would exist... this is a TERRIBLE mistake...

 

That's not true, Luke used force lightning agianst the Vong, and he did it with positive emotions. While many dark side powers require the use of anger and hate, not all do. Only the ones that involve Sith magic technically require any "evil" emotions like anger.

[VanorDM]

There's not one single thing in the Sith Code that requires you to channel negative emotions, such as hate, rage, or the rest. There is no requirement to use the dark side to use things like force lightning either.

 

There is no reason a light side sith can not exist, and in fact many do exist in this game.

 

Also and this is a critical point, anything said by a character in a book may not be objective truth. Just because Bane or anyone else says something doesn't mean it's true, it is only a statement of their opinion or understanding.

[Jenzali]

By definition, Sith are allowed to be light side. The whole point is freeing yourself and seeking a path to power, no matter if that path means making a few light side decisions or using a few light side powers along the way.

 

It's a much more difficult case to argue the existence of pure DS Sith who have not an ounce of LS within them nor have ever used any LS powers (which seems to be what some of the people in this thread are arguing).

 

They simply do not exist - if there was a pure DS Sith, he would meet an enemy, be unable to restrain his passion, and attempt to kill them, even if they weren't strong enough yet, thus resulting in their own death. A Sith with some LS bits would wait until he was more powerful before attempting to kill an enemy (i.e. showing restraint, or controlling one's emotions which is most definitely LS).

Edited May 16, 2012 by Jenzali

[Hambunctious]

The Sith are inherently Dark Side, I never said their not. The Dark Side is a force philosophy that involves feeding on emotions to become more powerful, exactly what Sith do. What I said was that Sith are not inherently evil, the Dark Side usually corrupts but doesn't have to.

 

Not just any emotion, but negative emotion is what they evolved into. In this game's universe, anyway. Apparently, the original sith ways had room for more than hate, fear, or rage, to power themselves in the force. They were led down this path by a being so evil, that he is planning to kill everyone in the galaxy, even his own people, to aquire more power for himself to conquer the entire universe.

 

The living force would never allow that to happen, however.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Hambunctious

[Kaisernick]

as for the lightside vendor on the fleet maybe its not know thats it their or it purpose is hidden from most.

the best way to hide something is in plain sight.

[FigeroMentel]

Good and evil is far more about who you are and what you do than which side you were born to. Throughout the story we see good, honest people all over The Empire, and corrupt, cheating schemers throughout The Republic. What is good and what is evil is all about you and the choices you make.

[TairaSayo]

From my point of view - Sith =/= Dark =/= Evil, and Jedi =/= Light =/= Good.

Sith and Jedi is religious sects, just because you are using dark technics, you did not get expelled from order (you been expelled coz some “Yoda” ^_^ don’t like you done it)

Dark and Light is you aliment in this world (like Chaotic neutral or Lawful Evil in DnD), yes it’s set limit to a technics you can use. But not much beyond this.

Good and Evil, well, in absences of christian church (with concept of abstract Good/Evil) they are limited to personal view.

 

 

Sorry my eng skill is still not good enough

[Katahn]

People are confusing techniques (i.e. Force Lightning vs. Telekinetic PebblesOfDoom) with what powers those techniques. The Sith Order has its techniques (revolving around Force Lightning and particularly brutal telekinetics such as Force Choke) while the Jedi Order has different techniques. Both sides can accomplish the same things with the Force, they just use different methods.

 

The difference is in how they power their abilities, specifically how they attune themselves to the Force to do it. Jedi do it by achieving inner peace and tranquility while the Sith do it via tapping into strong emotions. Sadly for the Sith and the rest of the universe the easiest emotions to tap into are the darker and more destructive ones: anger, fear, and hatred. But as others have pointed out there is no reason a Sith couldn't be "powered" by the emotions of love, loyalty, or courage. Such a Sith would do just as much good as any Jedi.

 

Conversely a Jedi that becomes thoroughly dispassionate could become very cold and calculating, becoming an unsympathetic force for destruction. The Borg embody, in the worst extreme possible, the Jedi ideal of "there is no emotion there is peace".

[FigeroMentel]

People are confusing techniques (i.e. Force Lightning vs. Telekinetic PebblesOfDoom) with what powers those techniques. The Sith Order has its techniques (revolving around Force Lightning and particularly brutal telekinetics such as Force Choke) while the Jedi Order has different techniques. Both sides can accomplish the same things with the Force, they just use different methods.

 

The difference is in how they power their abilities, specifically how they attune themselves to the Force to do it. Jedi do it by achieving inner peace and tranquility while the Sith do it via tapping into strong emotions. Sadly for the Sith and the rest of the universe the easiest emotions to tap into are the darker and more destructive ones: anger, fear, and hatred. But as others have pointed out there is no reason a Sith couldn't be "powered" by the emotions of love, loyalty, or courage. Such a Sith would do just as much good as any Jedi.

 

Conversely a Jedi that becomes thoroughly dispassionate could become very cold and calculating, becoming an unsympathetic force for destruction. The Borg embody, in the worst extreme possible, the Jedi ideal of "there is no emotion there is peace".

 

Very well said.

[Maaruin]

Conversely a Jedi that becomes thoroughly dispassionate could become very cold and calculating, becoming an unsympathetic force for destruction. The Borg embody, in the worst extreme possible, the Jedi ideal of "there is no emotion there is peace".

 

Sorry, but that isn't what I observe when I see the Jedi. Was Yoda Borg-like? He was not even like Spock (or other Vulcans).

 

The Jedi code is not: "There is no emotion, there is logic." It is: "There is no emotion, there is peace."

 

And from what I see about the Jedi, it is more likely that this line of the code refers to unbalaced, strong, chaotic emotions. Anger, hatered etc. and maybe over-excitement.

Jedi feel happy or sad, but in a more calm, passive, patient way.

[FigeroMentel]

Sorry, but that isn't what I observe when I see the Jedi. Was Yoda Borg-like? He was not even like Spock (or other Vulcans).

 

The Jedi code is not: "There is no emotion, there is logic." It is: "There is no emotion, there is peace."

 

And from what I see about the Jedi, it is more likely that this line of the code refers to unbalaced, strong, chaotic emotions. Anger, hatered etc. and maybe over-excitement.

Jedi feel happy or sad, but in a more calm, passive, patient way.

 

They also couldn't care less about slavery and refuse to even entertain peace with any dark sided enemy.

[Maaruin]

Before I answer...

 

They also couldn't care less about slavery

 

Are you referring to the clones in the film or some part of the game I don't know?

 

and refuse to even entertain peace with any dark sided enemy.

 

Which Jedi aare you referring to? Those from the SW story?