23/1/17 Put me in my place... again.

[parbs]

Transcendence is crucial specifically in civil war and huttball. Our sents would routinely sit on the prac dummy before we entered a wz, and proc up his runspeed talents to maximum in the minute before the wz popped and it was a huge advantage for obvious reasons. In civil war ranked games involving the best teams on the server, the middle often never gets capped. This results in a stalemate where whoever capped their side node the first will be the winner, unless the team 'behind' can somehow win mid, or not let it go while trying to cap a side. In Novare, while not quite as crucial, if middle never gets capped (rarer than civil war) the same situation applies.

 

In huttball alot of it is about momentum and control, having the speed at the beginning allows you to at least compete in getting that first ball when your opponent will presumably have their sent / mara doing the same thing. Then during the match having a couple of maras with it .. combined with your obligatory shadow and jugg tank - lol. Also voidstar it is very useful, especially if you manage to get through the first door and slow the opposition while your stealthers run ahead with speed boost.

 

All of this isn't even mentioning the ability to have your entire team reinforce a node / point faster .. you get the picture. It's abilities like these which push all other DPS's out of their positions in RWZs.. and im pretty sick of it

Edited August 4, 2012 by parbs

[Shia]

Sorry to ask such a newbie Q. What is the rotation for this build ?

 

im like only a couple of weeks into this game now and just nearing the 50 mark on my shadow and i been messing with a lot of your builds shik so props to you i love them

[Astarica]

Speed is of course a force multiplier but if Marauders do half of the damge right now you really wouldn't care that you can get to some spot 1 second earlier if it means bringing someone who is absolutely useless as a DPS. It's similar to how Force Speed allows us to get to a spot quickly to defend it, but if we're not a strong defensive class then it wouldn't really matter that we can get there faster than almost anyone else. I don't deny utility matters a lot but I think the base DPS is still what makes that utility powerful. You'll take a class with high DPS and not much utility, but the reverse is almost never true.

[Ripps]

Sorry to ask such a newbie Q. What is the rotation for this build ?

 

im like only a couple of weeks into this game now and just nearing the 50 mark on my shadow and i been messing with a lot of your builds shik so props to you i love them

 

Read the first page...

[Kajuana]

I don't deny utility matters a lot but I think the base DPS is still what makes that utility powerful. You'll take a class with high DPS and not much utility, but the reverse is almost never true.

 

That's like stating there is nothing else in this game except for DPS and heals. I tend to disagree.

As another post mentioned, top dps doesn't = definite win. Mixing in a shadow is almost always good for the team.

Are we going to stack shadows? No, you really only need one. But we don't stack any other class except for Marauders and PTs either. Those two classes are, at least for now, special.

 

PTs will get rail shot nerfed in the long run. Marauders IMO are good where they are, with perhaps a nerf to Guarded by the force which would fix everything.

 

Shadows getting top end concentrated DPS? That's not going to happen, and I don't want it to happen.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Kajuana

[Astarica]

That's like stating there is nothing else in this game except for DPS and heals. I tend to disagree.

As another post mentioned, top dps doesn't = definite win. Mixing in a shadow is almost always good for the team.

Are we going to stack shadows? No, you really only need one. But we don't stack any other class except for Marauders and PTs either. Those two classes are, at least for now, special.

 

PTs will get rail shot nerfed in the long run. Marauders IMO are good where they are, with perhaps a nerf to Guarded by the force which would fix everything.

 

Shadows getting top end concentrated DPS? That's not going to happen, and I don't want it to happen.

 

Shadows are pretty well balanced overall but being well balanced right now currently does not put you competitive against the two special classes. We're certainly fine versus everyone else, but let's not pretend there isn't a whole mess of the *specials* out there.

 

I'm not saying what Shadows should get top concentrated DPS (would probably be even more broken than Marauder/PT if this happens) I'm just saying as is right now for any class to be competitive against Marauder/PT they'd have to do top concentrated DPS since those classes have pretty much everyone else when it comes to the DPS department and that pretty much trumps all balance. It used to be those classes are top concentrated DPS but not necessarily highest total DPS (in fact Marauder can fall way behind in total WZ numbers in earlier patches), and you can say maybe that's balanced. This is no longer true, though. They might get nerfed eventually but that's not helping the current situation any until it happens.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Astarica

[Shia]

Read the first page...

 

I did..

 

Still don't see where shin posts the skill rotation ?!?

Edited August 5, 2012 by Shia

[Elyx]

Is this for PvP, or PvE? missed where someone stated this.

[Boarg]

Hmm… A few comments, I guess.

 

First, I agree that it seems some might be giving too much credit to Sentinels/Marauders between this thread and that other one. Yes, they are good. But they're not unbeatable, and a lot of ranked teams are running at least one Combat/Carnage of the group utility - and they are definitely beatable. They (back to all specs) do a lot of sustained damage, but they are not very bursty and not particularly front-loaded. A lot of specs can out-race them on damage by being more bursty or front-loaded. Even Infiltration can if they don't have a full compliment of defensive cooldowns to save them. They are also squishy without most of their cooldowns and regularly in vulnerable positions; it's not that hard to kill them in a warzone setting because they can't have their cooldowns available all the time unless you just let them by not putting pressure on them ever. A great ranked comp probably needs at least one on their team for utility, but it's not necessarily better off to stack them. They are just one of the good options from a teamplay perspective, and most of the teams that do stack them really are doing it to cover up a lack of teamplay. Also, when you look for classes that can compete with them 1v1, Kinetic Shadow specs are one of the best options in the game.

 

Second, if you're looking using any of the Kinetic variations as a dps-role player in a rated comp, expect your group to be low on dps. It does not do killing level damage like a real dps spec - even when played correctly, which is large part melee range. If you like to stay more at 10m, burst and pressure isn't even mediocre for a dps role. Honestly, Infiltration really does work a lot better for this type of thing if you're good at it and use the 100% uptime snare to keep your damage and control up.

 

What can work better in comps is using the specs in what would be one of the tank slots and then your team gets very respectable damage out of a tank slot. Running something like a Guardian and a Kinetic Hybrid as your tank slots can work really well with certain groups and team strats. It's also really good for the solo defender niche. Although, personally I think Kinetic variations are sub-par as stealth node attackers compared to Scrappers and Infiltration…just kills too slow. But, it's at least flexible…send your stealth off-tank over with your scrapper just to make sure the job gets done and such.

 

Flexibility out of an off-tank slot really is the spec's main feature - especially 23/1/17. You can swap focus or jobs as situation dictates or per whatever opportunity the opposing team/comp presents. Need to just survive in front of a voidstar door? Start swapping guards like a madman and use LoS and break caps. Need to wipe the team off same door when on offense? Focus on killing and suddenly your team has 80%+ of a dps come out of a tank slot along with some potential clutch CC. Can't get that door with brute force? Combat stealth with your team's Scrapper and go nuke the solo guard on the other door. Your team can't afford to leave more than one person to defend left because the other team is selling out in mid? Ideal solo defender. Guardian is trying to run a huttball? Guard and protect him. So, the upside is just being competent at lots of different things and being the person that morphs your team from offensive to defensive to stealth/utility, etc.

[Xinika]

I've been doing some testing w/ 23/1/17 vs 31/0/10 in terms of 1v1 viability and have came to a rather shocking conclusion. Pre 1.3, 31/0/10 was better at 1v1. Now things have actually changed. 23/1/17 is seemingly better than 31/x/x at 1v1 against just about any class so far. 31/x/x has it's advantages vs a few, but the overall balance against most (1v1) seems to be in favour of 23/1/17. Edited August 6, 2012 by Xinika

[Boarg]

I've been doing some testing w/ 23/1/17 vs 31/0/10 in terms of 1v1 viability and have came to a rather shocking conclusion. Pre 1.3, 31/0/10 was better at 1v1. Now things have actually changed. 23/1/17 is seemingly better than 31/x/x at 1v1 against just about any class so far. 31/x/x has it's advantages vs a few, but the overall balance against most (1v1) seems to be in favour of 23/1/17.

 

I've been finding the same thing. Seems like the huge drop in self-healing is the main reason.

[parbs]

I've always found 27 0 14 to be the best dueling spec as a shadow - just having the ability to cycle projects into a 1 stack tk throw i feel makes the difference, mainly because of skills like Deflection. If a hybrid attacks me and i use deflection, i know he's going to have a hard time proccing his shadow strike and particle accel - whereas i can still maintain most of my potential dps by cycling project into tk throw (tested on the dummy). This is just one example, but when im node guarding it's usually shadows who come after me. Using this trick you can get around some classses +defensive cooldowns and have a nice mix between force and weapon damage, plus you're not forced to be in 4m range to get your dps on. Edited August 6, 2012 by parbs

[parbs]

Just to post another benefit for 23 1 17 - If you're required to be defensive or guard a node, you can get away with using a shield and not gimp your dps too much, seeing as you're doing mostly weapon damage. As i posted above though it can be a double edged sword

[Folky]

Can someone link to the 23/1/17 spec? the link I found in the sticky doesn't show correctly.

[jmsutton]

Can someone link to the 23/1/17 spec? the link I found in the sticky doesn't show correctly.

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_consular/shadow/#::f11cf7e3fe5fdefef2e2f2ef3efef3e2fef2efe:

 

Something like that. There's room to switch some points around in the Kinetic tree, depending on whether you use a shield or not. Some people prefer to use a focus. Some people might want more endurance instead of the shadowsight defense buff, stuff like that. But generally that's the build.

[Siorac]

I've been meaning to ask this for a long time: why is the "1" important? My Shadow is only level 29 at the moment so I have no experience of how this works at level 50 but why is that 10% chance worth 1 point?

 

Also the Endurance talent seems entirely worthless to me yet most Shadows seem to take it or at least two points of it. At 2000 Endurance that talent provides 60 extra End - that is 600 more HP. Is that worth THREE talent points?

Edited August 11, 2012 by Siorac

[XakTsaroth]

I've been meaning to ask this for a long time: why is the "1" important? My Shadow is only level 29 at the moment so I have no experience of how this works at level 50 but why is that 10% chance worth 1 point?

 

Also the Endurance talent seems entirely worthless to me yet most Shadows seem to take it or at least two points of it. At 2000 Endurance that talent provides 60 extra End - that is 600 more HP. Is that worth THREE talent points?

The "1" is important to some cause in order to effectively use that ability it provides a 50% reduction in force cost as well as opponent's armor. It procs fairly often even at just 10%.

 

The Endurance talent becomes useful not only to allow for greater survivability with higher health but it factors into the consideration when using talents like Force in Balance and Harnessed Shadows. Depending on your spec you are likely to have either of these and they both heal you as a percentage of your total health. Higher health yields better healing and again increased survivability.

 

Xak Tsaroth

He who teaches also learns...

[jmsutton]

Also, if you're going high in the kinetic tree, there's just not that many other places to put points in the ability? I don't put the full 3/3, but I still put 2/3 there. I don't use a shield anymore so kinetic Ward is pointless. Bonus damage to your Combat Technique is an even worse investment numerically.... there's just not a lot of places to put the points you need to get up to the highest tier you go to.

[Ceasaigh]

It's what I use

 

If geared right (800+ Bonus Damage 75% Crit Multiplier) it hits like a truck. I have put up over 600K in Void star my lows are 300K highs are 600K average is 300K easy with protection and guard if needed.

 

If the other pure builds offered the survivability and damage I would probably play them as the 23/1/17 can get a bit boring.

 

Tell ya what tho it is a 1v1 KILLER! All but the best Mara's and Vanguards give very little challenge. I 3v1'd a node in Civil war yesterday killed all 3 and still capped the node with 50% health. Granted the 3 weren't geard that well but still

 

It is a very hearty spec.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Ceasaigh

[veyl]

Very curious to hear if you guys think it's honestly okay to be in a *mostly* tank spec and a tank stance and still be able to put up 4k+ crits and out DPS pure dps classes. (While having all of the added defensive bonuses of the tank stance.)

 

Do you guys think that this hybrid will be nerfed like the doomsaying pvp forum says? The shadow was my next toon to level and I'd hate to level it in a build that has a crosshair on it.

Edited August 13, 2012 by veyl

[Ceasaigh]

Very curious to hear if you guys think it's honestly okay to be in a *mostly* tank spec and a tank stance and still be able to put up 4k+ crits and out DPS pure dps classes. (While having all of the added defensive bonuses of the tank stance.)

 

Do you guys think that this hybrid will be nerfed like the doomsaying pvp forum says? The shadow was my next toon to level and I'd hate to level it in a build that has a crosshair on it.

 

 

I don't think the spec is geared towards being a pure DPS spec. I know most pure DPS classes can and do beat me in DPS output, but they lack a lot of the utility I have.

 

I hope they don't nerf the hybrid shadow. If they do they will have to tweak Infl and Balance to bring them in line with other classes in terms of survivability. Right not with out a dedicated pocket healer Infl and Balance shadows are just not optimal. There viable just not optimal.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Ceasaigh

[jmsutton]

So, at level 44 I'd been running 31/0/10 basically the entire time I've been leveling up, looking at different options and everything, but sticking it out. I just this morning changed to 23/1/17 (Well, really at this level 23/0/12) and it's absolutely insane how much faster I burn people down. The damage, both sustained and burst, is so much better, and there is almost no loss in survivability. I don't even have FiB yet so, looking forward to trying that next level. But in general, at least in PvP I can't see any real reason to run 31/0/10 over this. The damage debuff and area snare is good I guess, but....

[Wind_Chaser]

My Shadow just hit 30 last night and I have been doing Balance from the get-go, but this spec has intrigued me greatly, I will admit.

 

I am getting tired of being so squishy in PvP as Balance so the increased survivability of the Hybrid Spec here would be nice to have.

 

Is this spec workable at level 30, and if so how would you spend your skill points for it? Would I still gear for DPS first with ~30% crit chance then pumping up power and use a focus over a shield? I assume that I would run in combat techniquue instead of Force?

[jmsutton]

My Shadow just hit 30 last night and I have been doing Balance from the get-go, but this spec has intrigued me greatly, I will admit.

 

I am getting tired of being so squishy in PvP as Balance so the increased survivability of the Hybrid Spec here would be nice to have.

 

Is this spec workable at level 30, and if so how would you spend your skill points for it? Would I still gear for DPS first with ~30% crit chance then pumping up power and use a focus over a shield? I assume that I would run in combat techniquue instead of Force?

 

I don't know, personally 30 may be a little low really. Obviously since I was wanting to run 31/0/10 build at first, I went up the KC tree first, and frankly I still can't imagine doing it any other way, I would put your first 23 points in KC and then start building out the rest. The extra armor, the slight self-healing, the extra defense and force regeneration, too good for leveling to pass up I think. Yes, you use combat technique instead of force.

 

Other people will probably say I'm doing it wrong, but I personally mix DPS and Tank gear about 50/50, I do run with a focus however.

[Wind_Chaser]

Yeah I'm gonna have to go with KC I think on my way up to 50 I think. Once I hit 30 everything went down the drain. Struggling to survive/kill stuff my level now. o.O

 

Even with decent gear and Tharan geared up. Just can't keep up with the damage I sustain.