Why do people hate us so much?

[Chemic_al]

UR has PvP design oozing all over it. A perfect "last ditch effort" mechanic, perfectly suited for a DPS class. And that's exactly why I think that other Marauder defenses should be toned down - namely, the shield wall component on Camo, and, perhaps, either uptime, or mitigation bonus of CloP.

 

Still, need to be careful not to overdo it. Marauders *are* comparatively squishy outside cooldowns. Not even mentioning vulnerability to CC. But the number, the accessibility and the chainability of those cooldowns, combined with the damage potential, seem to be the core of the problem.

 

Oh really? See I look at a sorcerer's defensive cooldowns, oh wait there are none, and see stuff like this on a class with better armour rating, and better damage and the best defensive CDs and I see you say they need "a little toning down" and I can't believe you're actually being serious. UR shouldn't be on this class at all, it's 100% designed for a class that has no defences at all, ie a sorc, and yet Bioware give it to the dps monsters already bristling with defence. Tell me what do other dps classes like merc and sorc have by way of their last ditch effort?

 

And you actually want to point blank tell me mara's are squishy outside of cooldowns (which is what? like 5s every minute), when I can show you a class that's even squishier ALL the time?

 

No wonder people hate mara's and the people that defend this nonsense.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Chemic_al

[KaKiMi]

Why people thin Sent/Mara is OP

 

1) Rage/Focus Spec - Give a sustained dps class a burst potential build/tree is like saying Common sense is comparable with Logic. But then I guess we always need a class to be the Clusterfunk masters, maybe Bioware didn't put enough enphasis on the WARRIOR in Sith Warrior

 

2) Undying Rage/Guarded by the force - The whole "why do force user classes get extremely high damage mitigation skills" comes into play here, Sentinel/Mara just happen to be in the crossfire

 

3) Global Cooldown skills - The whole concept of Gore/Precision slash and retailiation and likewise skills that do not require global cooldowns is just an asset for Sent/Mara due to lack of originality. I guess Bioware didn't really think that a class that dual wields should naturally have a faster Global Cooldown rate simply because they are using MORE THAN ONE WEAPON!

[Helig]

Oh really? See I look at a sorcerer's defensive cooldowns, oh wait there are none, and see stuff like this on a class with better armour rating, and better damage and the best defensive CDs and I see you say they need "a little toning down" and I can't believe you're actually being serious. UR shouldn't be on this class at all, it's 100% designed for a class that has no defences at all, ie a sorc, and yet Bioware give it to the dps monsters already bristling with defence. Tell me what do other dps classes like merc and sorc have by way of their last ditch effort?

 

And you actually want to point blank tell me mara's are squishy outside of cooldowns (which is what? like 5s every minute), when I can show you a class that's even squishier ALL the time?

 

No wonder people hate mara's and the people that defend this nonsense.

Got a hybrid Sage. Let's see... Kinetic Collapse, Force Wake, two hard stuns (well, stun plus mez+short stun), one slow (well, two, if we count TK throw, but it's a self-root of sorts), one sprint. Enough for me to deal with 95% Marauders (the FOTM ones) 1 vs 1. The only thing I'd possibly want on that Sage is Force Speed breaking roots\snares. Gang targetting situations are all about positioning. I maintain a limited line of sight and stay close to a wall\pillar. Works like a charm.

 

Oh, in case it isn't obvious, Sages\Sorcs aren't supposed to facetank people. They need more means for escape (slightly improved existing ones, to be more precise), not Marauder cooldowns.

 

That said, I do believe that Sages could use some single target damage tune-ups, and Mandos need a reliable high-uptime slow effect.

 

 

"Last ditch" mechanics are for melee. Ranged need escape mechanisms, not last ditch skills.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Helig

[Missandei]

Don't know which Inquisitor advanced class you play but force lightning is un-interruptable with 3 stacks of harness darkness. (Darkness Assassin tree.)

 

What?!?!?!? Who told you this nonsense?

It is easily interrupted.. Even with the 3 harnessed shadows..

In PvP it is very rare when FLightning / TkT is channeled all the 3 seconds.. In most cases it is interrupted on the very first second.. L2P...

[Missandei]

Apart from Annihilation there is on more great spec for PvP. Every good Rage Marauder will know that when stacking surge and power you get a character that hits like a truck.

Fully geared with WH grade power+surge mods, enhancements, relics a Marauder/Juggernaut in rage spec can do 5500+ crits with the following rotation:

Force Charge--> Force Choke/Crush--> Shockwave x4--> Smash. This will leave many oponents a damaged wreck wich then you can finish with your other skills.

But it's not OP If you miss with smash it's over unles you can get in range before Shockwave cools down you are dead. Good playes who can predict this coming can escape but they have a split second to do it or they take the mostrous hit of the Marauder/Juggernaut

 

Huh? is there a WZ that have lack of players?

There is always a lot of players where Mara/Jugs are meant to be fighting..

One escaped? There is another right behind!

[Chemic_al]

Got a hybrid Sage. Let's see... Kinetic Collapse, Force Wake, two hard stuns (well, stun plus mez+short stun), one slow (well, two, if we count TK throw, but it's a self-root of sorts), one sprint. Enough for me to deal with 95% Marauders (the FOTM ones) 1 vs 1. The only thing I'd possibly want on that Sage is Force Speed breaking roots\snares. Gang targetting situations are all about positioning. I maintain a limited line of sight and stay close to a wall\pillar. Works like a charm.

 

Oh, in case it isn't obvious, Sages\Sorcs aren't supposed to facetank people. They need more means for escape (slightly improved existing ones, to be more precise), not Marauder cooldowns.

 

That said, I do believe that Sages could use some single target damage tune-ups, and Mandos need a reliable high-uptime slow effect.

 

 

"Last ditch" mechanics are for melee. Ranged need escape mechanisms, not last ditch skills.

 

Yeah, of course sorcs and sages can't face tank, but hell a mara can, and they do better dps, and when they're near death they vanish. Which is the point you so obviously want to avoid, so yeah their cooldowns are a problem. Higher the dps, the easier they should be to kill. This is blatantly not the case, if some sort of reasonable balance is desired among classes.

 

And sages and sorcs do not have any sort of escape ability a competent mara can't counter. And let's face it no one cares about the "bads" here, it's the overwhelming toolkit in the hands of players that know what they are doing that is the problem here.

 

You're implying here that 5% of maras will pwn your sage every time and there's nothing you can do, and if you can't see the problem here, I certainly can.

[Helig]

Yeah, of course sorcs and sages can't face tank, but hell a mara can, and they do better dps, and when they're near death they vanish. Which is the point you so obviously want to avoid, so yeah their cooldowns are a problem. Higher the dps, the easier they should be to kill. This is blatantly not the case, if some sort of reasonable balance is desired among classes.

 

And sages and sorcs do not have any sort of escape ability a competent mara can't counter. And let's face it no one cares about the "bads" here, it's the overwhelming toolkit in the hands of players that know what they are doing that is the problem here.

 

You're implying here that 5% of maras will pwn your sage every time and there's nothing you can do, and if you can't see the problem here, I certainly can.

Melee are constantly exposed. They need survivability. Marauders and Juggs are the meleest of all melee. Outside Rage, the overwhelming majority of their damage is done at 4-meter range, and thus, they have very limited positioning options - and their positioning is dictated by precisely where the enemy is standing.

 

They can't really "vanish" - not like Sins or Ops. They can't shake off DoTs with Evasion\Shroud. They don't exit combat. They can still be hit by AoE effects, including grenades. Oh, the lulz that I have when those suckers Camo only to eat a seismic charge.

 

You're asking the wrong question. What sort of gap-closing a Marauder has that a Sage *cannot* counter? The answer is... none, really. Granted, Carnage can be a frakking pain in the hindquarders with throw-root. But it became manageable once I learned to time stuff and manage their resolve better. In a sterile, 1 vs 1 situation, I can destroy most of them. In thick PvP, my best-working strategy is to make them disengage by, basically, making myself a "bad" target, not worth the effort chasing. Granted the situation is vastly different in organized rateds, but I play a healer there (also hybrid) - and I get a dedicated geared Guardian tank. Positioning+cc+guard+taunts+guardian leap=awesome.

[Amiehe]

They just wish they could fly through the air like we can..

[MasterWxman]

I think the main reason Marauders are considered overpowered is because they used to suck compared Sorcerers, Mercs, Snipers and Operatives.....

 

I remember operatives burst damaging my Marauder from full to death in about 3 seconds (Huttball), Mercs were out DPSing everything while at range and in heavy armor, and sages/sorcerers that were DPS could heal themselves faster then a Marauder could kill them...

 

But then Bioware nerfed (overnerfed?) the other classes while buffing the Marauders, and BAM everyone says they are overpowered.

[DarkbladeZZ]

The funny thing is, at release, marauders were considered weak in pvp. 1.2 brought mostly quality of life changes - removing the rage requirement on our cc's like disruption and obfuscate. The three real buffs were the dr on force camo, making ravage viable in pvp by increasing the dmg and making it uninteruptible, and a small damage bonus on ataru form procs. Marauders had all their defensive cd's at release, its only just now that people started complaining about them.

 

I think the real reason people don't like marauders is because alot of classes used to crap all over marauders, and then they got nerfed. Now, people can't just sit and go toe to toe with a skilled marauder and expect to win. You actually have to use cc, and proper strategy, and maybe even a little teamwork.

 

The other reason that people get angry about marauders is because of the nature of undying rage. People see you at low health, thinking they can just derp their way to a kill 1v1. When you suddenly don't die, perhaps even killing you, it makes people feel like they were cheated out of a kill. The proper response is, of course, to just run away/cc a marauder during ur, before killing them when it wears off, but that runs counter-intuitative to the logic of see enemy at low health - kill enemy at low health.

[sykopaf]

 

Edit: You cannot and will not know anything about pvp until you meet the above. ALL levels below 50 and/or time spent without full BiS is nothing. it does not exist and you cannot take anything from it to use in the future.

 

Imo its pretty stupid that every single person should have to be in full BiS gear in order for the game to be balanced

[Helig]

 

I think the real reason people don't like marauders is because alot of classes used to crap all over marauders, and then they got nerfed. Now, people can't just sit and go toe to toe with a skilled marauder and expect to win. You actually have to use cc, and proper strategy, and maybe even a little teamwork.

 

This is comedy frakking gold. Just like Ret Paladins in the beginning of WOTLK.

 

 

P.S. Marauders were 1v1 beasts throughout the entire post-launch development.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Helig

[bathrobe]

Maras and Sents are considered overpowered because they synergize so well into competitive team play, such as rated war zones. All three specs have enough damage and utility that enemy teams cannot afford to ignore them, but the number, effectiveness, and short cooldown of their defensive abilities means that, more often than not, it's fruitless to focus them down. With any kind of healing at all, it often feels as though you need to "kill" a Mara/Sent three times before they finally die, even with coordinated focus fire. However, if you simply ignore them, then they'll tear your healers and ranged dps to shreds. Hell, 3 coordinated focus/rage specs can devastate any tank and the healer he's guarding at the same time, while doing massive damage to anyone foolish/unlucky enough to get caught in the AoE (I hate playing rage/focus, as it's a pretty lazy spec, but I can't deny its effectiveness en masse).

 

Because of this, marauders, by their very presence, require the enemy team to use multiple CC's that would otherwise go toward interrupting heals, disrupting strategies, setting up burst, etc. Because of this, as well as the many powerful team buffs Maras/Sents provide, it's almost a requirement to have 2-3 on any competitive team, leaving fewer spots for other DPS.

[Grimnoire]

I know others will surely disagree with this point but after having played almost every class/spec I honestly find an Annihilation Marauder to be the toughest to play in high-level PVE (lets put pvp into another basket because the difficulty of playing one class if inextricably linked to the potency and difficulty of the other classes). Yes it provides a very high amount of dps and survivability but it requires a level of awareness, dexterity, and knowledge to get the most out of it that no other class I've played commands.

 

Yes my sorc might be a bit squishier to burst and not do as much DPS but he also a hell of a lot easier to play.

[Fozziwig]

People hate us so much because they only pay attention to the damage we do, and they forget about all the time we are not doing damage because we are running to get there.

[mulzii]

I tend to think marauders are a tad OP, but only because they have great DPS AND great defensive cds.

PT's have comparable dps (if not more). Imagine them with the defensive cd's a marauder has. Oh how the world would hate them even more than they do now...

[Drator]

I tend to think marauders are a tad OP, but only because they have great DPS AND great defensive cds.

PT's have comparable dps (if not more). Imagine them with the defensive cd's a marauder has. Oh how the world would hate them even more than they do now...

 

PTs consistently have equal or greater damage output than marauders in RWZs, they can taunt, and they have much more control (pull, stuns, etc.)

Edited August 1, 2012 by Drator

[gbowsharp]

After leveling an Assassin to 50 and confronting Mauraders in pvp I thought the same thing, that Mauraders are so OP. Then I rolled a Maurader and leveled it to 40ish to realize that is not the case. The Assassin dps trees survivability just sucks....

[bbare]

I know others will surely disagree with this point but after having played almost every class/spec I honestly find an Annihilation Marauder to be the toughest to play in high-level PVE (lets put pvp into another basket because the difficulty of playing one class if inextricably linked to the potency and difficulty of the other classes). Yes it provides a very high amount of dps and survivability but it requires a level of awareness, dexterity, and knowledge to get the most out of it that no other class I've played commands.

 

Yes my sorc might be a bit squishier to burst and not do as much DPS but he also a hell of a lot easier to play.

 

I find that the annihilation marauder is fairly easy to play. You have a fairly consistent resource bar and although you have more skills to use, they are pretty much in a consistent rotation. If you make a mistake in annihilation you do enough damage with anything to mitigate the mistake. Really the hardest thing about annihilation is making sure you keep both of your dots up. I'd say the madness assassin and the lethality operative or more challenging simply because they are melee classes with less than stellar gap-closers (no leap). If you make a small mistake as a madness assassin it can destroy your force management. That isn't really the case for marauders.

[Chemic_al]

I tend to think marauders are a tad OP, but only because they have great DPS AND great defensive cds.

PT's have comparable dps (if not more). Imagine them with the defensive cd's a marauder has. Oh how the world would hate them even more than they do now...

 

Bioware will read that and probably buff PTs next.

 

And just reading the class feedback speaks VOLUMES about mara players, but I'll summarize the majority "Everyone thinks we're OP, except me, I think we're fine and balanced."

 

Yeah... says it all really. The hatred is well deserved if you ask me.

[NoTomorrow]

This is why, we snipers, are in a better position from this point of view. We can do as much damage as you guys, but they seem to notice us less often. In your case everything you do, its close and personal, and this of course leads to anger.

 

I do envy your ability to follow the healers behind the corner and finish the buggers off. Something we snipers will always be missing...

[Eriner]

If you cannot kill marauder then l2p your own class cuz maras are one of the easiest class to kill if you have any idea how to play with them Edited August 2, 2012 by Eriner

[DNGDangerous]

Lets face it, 1 lightsaber is friggen awsome. We have 2 lightsabers... obviously we need a nerf!

[Omicrie]

I've played a 50 mara, merc, snipe, and sin. And I can honestly that the reason people say this class is OP, isn't that its OP. Its the fact that it is currently the most balanced class in the game as far as class structure and role.

 

Much of the bad press about this class is due to the fact that the OTHER classes are broken, and so they would prefer you to be broken as well. If you look at the major compation for close range dps your loosely talking about the op & sin. Sin's are only really viable as a hybrid at this point of time, and ops while good at initial burst are way to easy to kite afterwards.

 

Your class also has an advantage over the merc class (most do, you do it a little bit better), honestly if you took two players familiar with both classes and have the same skill level the mara would kill a dps merc almost 100% of the time.

 

Honestly though the jugs, powertechs, snipers, hybrid sins (tank), merc healer and op healer; shouldn't have too much to complain about, at most minimal ( using the word minimal strongly) adjustments to both classes to balance those issues out at this point of time. The sorc needing a buff in some areas, but not against mara specificly.

 

Really the issue is that as far as a balanced class to fit its role the marauder is an shining example, but many of the other classes arn't. I personally don't like the mara play style, but don't think they should be nerfed. I think that bioware should instead look at how the specialization of the class benefited it for the certain things (and rightfully so) it can do, and apply that "specialization" to the other classes so that they are also specialized for there roles. Many of the other classes have their ability's flowing into areas (widely so) that are un-desirable for their roles.

 

It's better to be a master of one, than a jack of all trades.

 

That where I stand, and hope that it clears up some of the press both for and against this class. I have been nerfted on my merc and on my sin, and don't desire any more nerfs for any class, but rather am for slowly fixing whats broken to balance out the game, focusing on specialization based on roles.

 

Cheers

Edited August 4, 2012 by Omicrie
spelling

[Troelsen]

I agree, Omicrie. Mara/Sent is a very polished class. They have a role to perform and they perform it well.

 

The only thing I'm tired of seeing is suggestions of nerfing Undying Rage to 50% reduction. This is a very bad idea. It is not a tanking button! Think of a WoW Rogue's Cheat Death, except this one actually works!

 

More often than not, I use this ability when I'm about to die. The closer to death you are when you activate it, the less health it takes. With the health cost, the point of the ability is not to avoid mega-burst damage but to postpone death for a few seconds because as soon as the buff falls off, you're dead not long after.

 

My suggestion, if there must be a compromise, is to reduce the duration to 3 seconds and/or increase the cooldown to a base of 2 minutes.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Troelsen