Expertise is a problem.

[Derian]

I remember those days and sorry a level 20 could still not compete with a level 50. I would have 3 lowbies on me in a WZ (as a merc of all things) and coming out with 3 easy solo kills. I will agree about them changing to a single stat for most everything made things way too easy for players to min max their gear. Expertise in and of itself isn't much of a problem as the difference between Recruit, BM, and WH isn't that large. The problem is in main stat and endurance. The difference can be staggering. As if having 5-6k more health wasn't enough, the 500+ extra main stat is overkill over Recruit gear. Tertiary stats like power, crit, surge, etc are just as bad.

 

IMO, there are a number ways to adjust this for both current and future players.

 

1-Give recruit gear a huge Expertise boost while leaving the stat differences alone. By huge I mean ~35% damage boost in full recruit with damage reduction and healing getting boosts as well.

 

2-Make commendations tradable again. This was one of the single best features I miss from beta. This could also be a source of income for players who don't wish to do PvE dailys for credits as they could just as easily sell comms.

 

3-Remove the level requirements to buy end game PvP gear. This was another feature I loved from beta. Being able to have some level 50 gear before you finished your grind was a huge plus. Removing the level requirement for rated comms would be a plus as well.

 

4-In addition to or in lieu of the above, remove or massively increase the commendation caps. This would allow low level players to save up for a better set of gear as soon as they hit 50. There are players that do a ton of PvP at low levels only to waste thier comms on useless gear because of the caps. Both this and the previous idea would give a nice incentive for players to start PvPing as soon as they hit level 10.

 

The way it is now, it almost seems as if players are punished for hitting level 50. If you don't have alts and use the inheritance items to move mods around, you're pretty much screwed as a fresh 50.

 

100% Correct. Expertise is easy to get.

[Derian]

the issue is the game is not about skill for most of the population its about gear.

No MMO pre wow put more of a focus on your gear then your ability to play, even in wow pre wrath it was more about your ability then your gear. You had to be 3-4 tiers above someone in TBC for it to be more about gear then skill where in this game half a set of WH will beat 90% of the BMs because gear matters that much more then skill for the vast majorty of the PvPers.

 

The good players of MMOs want skill to be the defining factor, the people who do not want skill to be a factor are the people who know without a doubt they cannot win if skill is a factor.

 

No game before WoW put more of an Emphasis on Gear? That's an awfully naive thing to say with games like EQ.

[ohiokid]

If they remove expertise you will have the same problem.

[Hizoka]

If they remove expertise you will have the same problem.

 

not if they use the bolster system to even out every ones stats making it an even playing field. Make gear a non factor in PvP so that PvP is actually PLAYER vs PLAYER.

 

People are opposed to actual player vs player because they need a crutch like expertise to replace skill. Bad players will always cling to a PK stat because they know that without it they could never win.

[DarthBloodloss]

I didn't read the most recent 17.5 pages of this thread, but class imbalance is more of a problem than expertise imbalance.

 

300 expertise isn't going to be the deciding factor in a 1 on 1 fight. The classes are what will decide the outcome.

Edited July 31, 2012 by DarthBloodloss

[ArchangelLBC]

not if they use the bolster system to even out every ones stats making it an even playing field. Make gear a non factor in PvP so that PvP is actually PLAYER vs PLAYER.

 

People are opposed to actual player vs player because they need a crutch like expertise to replace skill. Bad players will always cling to a PK stat because they know that without it they could never win.

 

Except then why keep pvping at all? Most people aren't going to keep PVPing on just 4 maps for that long when there's no real incentive for doing so. At top tier PVP everyone has the same gear, everyone else pays their dues (I'm still in almost all BM so it's not like I'm not also paying my dues).

 

People are opposed to all their hard work being invalidated by making gear pointless.

 

Again this is an MMO. Gear comes with the territory. If you want a PVP game where gear doesn't come into it then this isn't the genre you're looking for.

[Astarica]

No game before WoW put more of an Emphasis on Gear? That's an awfully naive thing to say with games like EQ.

 

In EQ1, I remember dueling in the arena on the Bazaar where I go get a drink and come back while AFK in the arena and then killed a guy in two seconds thanks to my raid gear while he was futilely trying to hit me all this time. Or that a Wizard casting Garrison's Superior Sundering (drop off raid boss) can one shot a group geared character. Forget mana burn, this is a regular spell you can cast that kills a group level characters 100% of the time that he can never get.

 

You don't hear much about these stories because nobody really PvP seriously in EQ1 precisely because it's 100% gear driven, but WoW is hardly the most gear driven game when it comes to PvP.

[Scritchy]

People are opposed to all their hard work being invalidated by making gear pointless.

 

Again this is an MMO. Gear comes with the territory. If you want a PVP game where gear doesn't come into it then this isn't the genre you're looking for.

There is a problem if you think a game should equate to 'hard work'.

 

Also, you really mean 'this isn't the game you're looking for'. Some games in this genre actually did it correctly and decoupled gear from PVP.

[ArchangelLBC]

There is a problem if you think a game should equate to 'hard work'.

 

Also, you really mean 'this isn't the game you're looking for'. Some games in this genre actually did it correctly and decoupled gear from PVP.

 

 

I have never said that and I definitely don't meant it. Can you provide examples of MMOs that managed to decouple gear from PVP?

 

There are plenty that didn't have PVP specific gear. That does not mean that gear was decoupled from PVP.

 

edit: And regardless of what I think that's the language people are going to use. To think otherwise is just ignorance.

Edited August 1, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[Hizoka]

Except then why keep pvping at all? Most people aren't going to keep PVPing on just 4 maps for that long when there's no real incentive for doing so. At top tier PVP everyone has the same gear, everyone else pays their dues (I'm still in almost all BM so it's not like I'm not also paying my dues).

 

People are opposed to all their hard work being invalidated by making gear pointless.

 

Again this is an MMO. Gear comes with the territory. If you want a PVP game where gear doesn't come into it then this isn't the genre you're looking for.

 

yet that is how it was in every MMO before wow added resiliance... and they all made money. People will play if its good and balanced.

[Scritchy]

Can you provide examples of MMOs that managed to decouple gear from PVP?

 

There are plenty that didn't have PVP specific gear. That does not mean that gear was decoupled from PVP.

GW1 and GW2.

 

People will play if its good and balanced.

And fun. Fun is a big part of it.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Scritchy

[Hizoka]

GW1 and GW2.

 

 

And fun. Fun is a big part of it.

 

and grinding gear just because you have to grind gear is not fun for people who want skill to be a larger part of PvP then gear.

 

honestly why do you think over 400k people stoped playing due to PvP?

[ArchangelLBC]

yet that is how it was in every MMO before wow added resiliance... and they all made money. People will play if its good and balanced.

 

People will play it for awhile. Then they'll get bored with it. There's 4 maps. There will be 5 at some point but that's still an abyssmal rate of content release. After that they'll need an incentive to keep playing the same 5 maps.

 

Also someone already gave an EQ1 example that says you're wrong about "every MMO before WoW added resiliance". Gear still played a major part in many games. It just wasn't PVP specific gear.

 

GW1 and GW2.

 

GW2 isn't out yet, and it's success has yet to be seen. From the friends I have who've done beta weekends it still needs a lot of class balancing. Please elaborate on what GW1 did to decouple gear from PVP for those of us who didn't play it. DId they just normalize everyone's stats? Was there no gear? Decoupled makes it sound like gear played absolutely no part in your performance in PVP. If that's what you mean I would like details please.

 

 

honestly why do you think over 400k people stoped playing due to PvP?

 

Massive class imbalance, wild massive nerfs to address this balance which failed to do the job, having to sub for a game where all they did was PVP in a game with only 3-4 maps (depending on when they unsubbed).

Edited August 1, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[Hizoka]

People will play it for awhile. Then they'll get bored with it. There's 4 maps. There will be 5 at some point but that's still an abyssmal rate of content release. After that they'll need an incentive to keep playing the same 5 maps.

 

Also someone already gave an EQ1 example that says you're wrong about "every MMO before WoW added resiliance". Gear still played a major part in many games. It just wasn't PVP specific gear.

 

 

 

GW2 isn't out yet, and it's success has yet to be seen. From the friends I have who've done beta weekends it still needs a lot of class balancing. Please elaborate on what GW1 did to decouple gear from PVP for those of us who didn't play it. DId they just normalize everyone's stats? Was there no gear? Decoupled makes it sound like gear played absolutely no part in your performance in PVP. If that's what you mean I would like details please.

 

wow had 3 maps for 4 years and it grew in size. people are claiming all these excuses that are 100% invalid because they have been proven to not matter. The biggest issue is its not fun because gear is more important then skill, so people will not play it when they have to lose for a few weeks just to be able to compete. Its teh same thing that killed rift.

[ArchangelLBC]

wow had 3 maps for 4 years and it grew in size. people are claiming all these excuses that are 100% invalid because they have been proven to not matter. The biggest issue is its not fun because gear is more important then skill, so people will not play it when they have to lose for a few weeks just to be able to compete. Its teh same thing that killed rift.

 

Unless you can prove that WoW grew from a major PVP playerbase, what WoW did and it's relative success is mostly irrelevent. Maybe WoW grew from a massive influx of PVE players.

 

PVP is not fun for many people for many reasons. Class balance is a big one. No one enjoys getting rolled over in a few GCDs by high burst damage classes without any tools to do anything about it. This happens to people wearing full War Hero, so you can't argue that gear is the only contributing factor here.

 

Also, this is a threat specifically about expertise. That's all I've been talking about. I'm starting to feel like we're talking about different things. If they removed expertise today, right now, people in full recruit gear would still get rolled by people with full War Hero or Battlemaster. They would also get rolled by people in full Rakata or Black Hole/Campaign.

 

I hate PVP and I stuck through the first few weeks of Recruit gear till I had full BM. Sometimes you gotta take your lumps. At least you can make progress this way.

[Hizoka]

 

 

I hate PVP and I stuck through the first few weeks of Recruit gear till I had full BM. Sometimes you gotta take your lumps. At least you can make progress this way.

 

you said it right there, you are bad but now that you spent the time to get gear you are magically good, that means you gear is what wins your fights not your ability to play the game. That is the point of this thread. your gear is what makes the difference not you skill level and that is why people hate expertise.

[ArchangelLBC]

you said it right there, you are bad but now that you spent the time to get gear you are magically good, that means you gear is what wins your fights not your ability to play the game. That is the point of this thread. your gear is what makes the difference not you skill level and that is why people hate expertise.

 

Did I say I was magically good now? Do you think I'm suddenly topping damage/objectives in WZs? I play one of the most universally accepted bad classes in PVP (DPS Commando). I win a non trivial amount but that's mostly from playing with a lot of guild pre-mades and getting lucky on the draw of opponents. Now I just lose because of my poor skill and because my class' poor toolset, instead of getting rolled over because of gear.

 

You said people wouldn't play if they had to lose for a few weeks just to be competitive. I lost for a few weeks. Now I'm as competitive as many others from a gear perspective, and we can chalk my suckiness to my class and my poor skill.

 

If BW ever balances out my class by giving it the tools I can take solace in the fact that I will then only have my poor skill to blame.

Edited August 1, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[Thornsbane]

You guys are ignoring the fact that someone in full WH has played a HUGE amount of wz's......meaning they have improved their skills a lot. They are experienced PVPers.

 

Its not all in the gear, the difference between augmented BM and aug'd WH is minimal.

 

I just got an alt to 50 and did some wz's in recruit gear and did fine.

[DarthOvertone]

Except, as someone else mentioned, it's not the expertise gulf between recruit and WH that gets people crushed. It's the abyssmal stats on recruit gear.

 

That someone is wrong. The stat difference is manageable by itself, but not when it is magnified by Expertise. It is the combination of increased stats and Expertise that creates the massive gulf we have. Do you even understand how Expertise works?

 

Still waiting to hear about that dramatically different system of yours.

 

I don't have a system, simply offered some suggestions which eliminate the need for Expertise completely based on what is already being done successfully in other games.

 

PVP is not fun for many people for many reasons. Class balance is a big one.

 

There is an interesting irony in your statement. There is no real class imbalance. Most of the classes are pretty much the same that they were pre-1.2 aside from a few minor tweaks to specific skills. What changed in 1.2 to create this massive class imbalance that so many peeps QQ about? You guessed it...Expertise. TTK dropped through the floor and WZs became a massive DPS race overnight.

[L-RANDLE]

That someone is wrong. The stat difference is manageable by itself, but not when it is magnified by Expertise. It is the combination of increased stats and Expertise that creates the massive gulf we have. Do you even understand how Expertise works?

 

He probably was referring to me. The expertise difference from Recruit to WH is about 5% damage, 4% mitigation, 3% heals. The difference in expertise is in fact managable. So the "gap" is virtually non-existant from the EXP perspective.

You should rehash your argument to gear being not allowed in WZ, because sufficient main/end is the real problem you have, regardless of where it came from (whether PvP or PvE gear).

 

L-RANDLE<------- ~2K WP(MAIN), 741EXP.

 

I have low EXP, so I should get smashed, right?

 

 

 

pst.... I facetank recruit geared marauders, and im a sage...

[DarthBloodloss]

You can get a full suit of battlemaster in no time, and the difference between WH and BH is small.

 

When you go up against someone, you don't need to be concerned about their gear. You should be concerned more about their class. A Marauder in recruit gear can kill an Arsenal Merc in WH gear.

 

If you find yourself constantly dieing to the WH Powertech or the WH Marauder, its because they are a PT or Mara...not because their expertise is 300 higher than yours.

[ArchangelLBC]

I don't have a system, simply offered some suggestions which eliminate the need for Expertise completely based on what is already being done successfully in other games.

 

Then what are we talking about, because if we're talking about one set of gear we still have the problem of PVE players and top geared PVP players rolling over the fresh 50s, and your suggestion for different emphasis of stats in each arena still sounds functionally like what we have right now. I again ask for clarification.

 

There is an interesting irony in your statement. There is no real class imbalance. Most of the classes are pretty much the same that they were pre-1.2 aside from a few minor tweaks to specific skills. What changed in 1.2 to create this massive class imbalance that so many peeps QQ about? You guessed it...Expertise. TTK dropped through the floor and WZs became a massive DPS race overnight.

 

Really? Do you remember 1.2? I sure do. Those changes were pretty massive. Heal specced Commandos and Sages took massive nerfs to resource management, Commandos also took a major nerf to throughput (Supercharge Cells alone got hit with 3 nerfs in one ability). The nerf to grav round and the subsequent "fix" to Demo Round completely killed the DPS of a class that should have already been easy to shut down. This is game where "minor tweeks" can make a huge difference, and in any game a bunch of minor changes adds up to a whole lot of change. Healer throughput dropping meant that burst damage became even more important while sustained damage became much less important. The law of unintended consequences enforced itself rather brutally. Yes expertise was changed, but it's not like the stat hadn't been there since day 1 (it's effectiveness pre-1.2 is attested to by the fact that they felt the need for a 50s only bracket since lower levels don't have access to the same expertise). There's argument that it should be retweaked certainly, but it's removal altogether still seems to me contraindicated (though hey if you want me to bring in my 2300 Aim Rakata geared Commando just let me know. I'll be more than happy to run over everyone).

 

Above poster already talked about how small the % difference it is. It's the stat difference that makes those minor expertise differences so devastating, but the expertise is what keeps top tier raiders from walking into warzones with full campaign gear and rolling over everyone too. Remember that from 1-49, the difference between leveling greens and all current purple modded orange gear isn't all that vast. The difference between a fresh 50 in all orange gear even with all daily armorings/mods/ehancements, and a fully optimized campaign/black hole equipped PVE raider is night and day.

[Pistols]

I'm perfectly fine with the Expertise stat, but I do think the gap between Recruit and WH is a bit much.

[DNGDangerous]

I agree!

At level 50 pvp there is absolutely no skill involved! It is Gear vs Gear.

Bioware should add a buff (like the level 49 buff) for level 50 that makes all stats the same for all players. This way there wont be - he has 100 Willpower more than me... he has 100 expertise more than me... it will be purely skill based as it should be.

 

PVP level 10-49: fun

PVP level 50: frustrating

 

You have fun in 10-49 wz because you think bolster makes things even but it doesn't- a full team of lv49s will beat a full team of Lv10s.

The level 49s spent the time to level and own because of it. You complain about level 50 wz, because you were just 49 and were used to ownin the lv10 noobs.

I put the time in to get my gear, I took the beating when I was a fresh 50. We all went through that period. The only difference is there was no recruit gear when I did it, I wore my level 49 gear and still loved pvp after 50.

You tired of gettin owned- then stop thinking your the most powerful level 49, and start thinking your that level 10, and play smart, play safe, and pick your battles more wisely.

[DNGDangerous]

I'm perfectly fine with the Expertise stat, but I do think the gap between Recruit and WH is a bit much.

 

Sorry for the double post- but this quote I totally agree with, I believe bm and recruit gear should have equal expertise! Only that recruit gear stat itemization should be terrible- I.e. No power, no crit, no surge, more endurance more accuracy