Illogical Melee Weapons

[juanni]

I would agree that it does seem illogical, unfitting, and off, but this game does already have more than 4 times the use of ranged mobs of any MMO I've played in the past. And part of MMOs is tank going in, pulling mobs all together, and then have an AOE damage dealer kill them. This is really hard to do with mobs who have range (because you can't AOE without people in the AOE range).

 

More animals (who don't use weapons at all) would be a good alternative, but I like how this game is more about fighting people than just fighting animals. Plus, melee using non-force wielders aren't all that common.

 

Another thing to think of, however, is lasers (realistically) travel at the speed of light (which can go around the Earth 15+ times in a second). Even in the Star Wars movies, however, lasers travel far slower than bullets.

 

Blasters are not laser weapons.

[Mikeni]

Cortosis Weave coated weapons are capable of deflecting blaster bolts and/or parrying lightsabers.

 

It's part of Star Wars canon.

 

If you want a world with only lasers and energy weapons then Star Trek is probably what you're looking for. Just don't call the Klingons weirdos for using those blade thingies, they'll probably chop your head off!

[dandamanno]

Cortosis Weave coated weapons are capable of deflecting blaster bolts and/or parrying lightsabers.

 

It's part of Star Wars canon.

 

If you want a world with only lasers and energy weapons then Star Trek is probably what you're looking for. Just don't call the Klingons weirdos for using those blade thingies, they'll probably chop your head off!

 

Then why not have Cortosis weave shields/armour?

 

It doesn't matter, lol. It's there becasue it has to be there, all ranged weapons would suck. Sometimes in sci-fi you have to make up stuff in order to tell a good story, even if it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Yes, because it would be daft not to do so. Most armies will train their troops to use radios, that doesn't mean they charge into battle and throw radios at the enemy.

 

But again as history proved time and again all you get with bayoents (or swords or spears or even bows) vs guns is a lot of corpses on one side.

 

I've no idea why (or even how) you'd think it would be otherwise.

 

Tell that to the British troops in Basra in 2004 who killed about 20 insurgents with a bayonet charge without any losses of their own after running low on ammunition. The facts are why I think otherwise, talk to the Gurkhas to see their viewpoint on whether nothing melee weapons are not useful in battle.

 

And of course in the Star Wars universe there are Ray Shields, which offer complete protection against blaster fire.

[Goretzu]

Tell that to the British troops in Basra in 2004 who killed about 20 insurgents with a bayonet charge without any losses of their own after running low on ammunition. The facts are why I think otherwise, talk to the Gurkhas to see their viewpoint on whether nothing melee weapons are not useful in battle.

 

And of course in the Star Wars universe there are Ray Shields, which offer complete protection against blaster fire.

 

Yes, they were out of ammo and were sitting duck for mortar fire (and therefore had little choice), it was an utter surprise (for the enemy), and they were facing an irregular mob (i.e. idiots with weapons - not disciplined professional troops).

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0bd_1249524865

 

They'd never have charged if they had ammo, or were facing professional troops, and if for some inexplicable reason they did they likely would have been massacred.

 

 

 

Again I don't understand your lack of understanding about the realities of modern warfare.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Goretzu

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Again I don't understand your lack of understanding about the realities of modern warfare.

 

As an ex-squaddie I can say that the lack of understanding is on your part. In modern warfare such weapons still have a part to play, not a major part but they do have their uses.

 

In the SWTOR universe where good defenses against blaster fire exist they would have more of a part to play.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[Goretzu]

As an ex-squaddie I can say that the lack of understanding is on your part. In modern warfare such weapons still have a part to play, not a major part but they do have their uses.

 

In the SWTOR universe where good defenses against blaster fire exist they would have more of a part to play.

 

Who is saying they don't have a part?

 

What is talked about is why anyone would arm someone with a load of swords and send them into battle against an equal opposition armed with ranged weapons.

 

You're the one repeatedly trying to claim that would "work" in today's world not me.

 

 

 

 

SW-wise, as I mention they are using the oldest Sci-fi trick in the book "technology fixes it", which is fair enough if fairly predictable (and doesn't stand up to inspection - why would an energy field capable of dispersing massive amounts of energy suddenly be vulnerable to the very small amount of energy contained in melee weapon?)

Edited July 26, 2012 by Goretzu

[Jarlgon]

why would an energy field capable of dispersing massive amounts of energy suddenly be vulnerable to the very small amount of energy contained in melee weapon?

 

Because the dispersing effects are proportional to the amount of energy it has to deflect (non-linear), therefor making the vibroswords more effective.

[Goretzu]

Because the dispersing effects are proportional to the amount of energy it has to deflect (non-linear), therefor making the vibroswords more effective.

 

 

I assume you mean it disproportionately disperses more energy %-wise from higher energy weapons (the old Sci-fi technology fixes it thing again ), but then how would that work?

 

And if it did work wouldn't that then make lightsabers (and indeed all ranged weapons) an utterly obsolete weapon in the SW universe?

[smellmop]

*puts on flame shield*

It is because Lucas read the Dune books before "creating" the Star Wars stories. One uses melee weapons because of the use of shields against projectile and blaster fire.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Who is saying they don't have a part?

 

What is talked about is why anyone would arm someone with a load of swords and send them into battle against an equal opposition armed with ranged weapons.

 

You're the one repeatedly trying to claim that would "work" in today's world not me.

 

I did not claim anything of the sort. This is the first post of mine that you responded to.

 

And yet armies still train soldiers in the use Bayonets as well as guns.

 

As is mentioned in SWTOR in places Ray Shields make people immune to blaster fire.

 

See, 2 statements. 1 indicates that weapons other than guns still have a place in our world. The second illustrates why in the SWTOR universe people would use a vibrosword as a primary weapon, because they can better deal with people who are immune to blaster fire.

 

But again as history proved time and again all you get with bayoents (or swords or spears or even bows) vs guns is a lot of corpses on one side.

 

It was that statement that my British Army example countered, it is not all you get in the real world. Its often what you get but not all the time.

 

SW-wise, as I mention they are using the oldest Sci-fi trick in the book "technology fixes it", which is fair enough if fairly predictable (and doesn't stand up to inspection - why would an energy field capable of dispersing massive amounts of energy suddenly be vulnerable to the very small amount of energy contained in melee weapon?)

 

Why were so many early Kevlar vests good against bullets but provided little protection against knives? The energy delivered by a melee weapon is in a different form than that in a blaster bolt, what protects against 1 type may not protect well against another.

[Jarlgon]

I assume you mean it disproportionately disperses more energy %-wise from higher energy weapons (the old Sci-fi technology fixes it thing again ), but then how would that work?

 

And if it did work wouldn't that then make lightsabers (and indeed all ranged weapons) an utterly obsolete weapon in the SW universe?

you know what I mean. It's 3am where I am, I'm not thinking straight

[Malastare]

A few points worth mentioning:

 

First: As noted a couple times before: Blasters are not lasers. This is firmly established in lore, and should be obvious to anyone who actually pays attention. Yes, there is a reference to "turbolasers", but they still aren't lasers like exist in our world. Parsing colloquial names like that tends to result in silly conclusions. "Lightsabers" aren't sabers constructed from light, in much the same way that "lightbulbs" aren't bulbs constructed from light.

 

Next: Melee weapons are still quite popular now, though not the flashier versions seen in the game. Modern soldiers are still armed with knifes, bayonets, and even tomahawks. They might not be primary weapons, but there are plenty of examples of them being useful. In the Star Wars universe, blasters are neither ubiquitous, nor omnipotent. If we take the movies as evidence, blasters are laughably inaccurate, and you don't have to even work hard to find examples of melee weapons being used, especially by less "modernized" cultures or individuals. Does that justify the sharpened-car-door vibroblade that some enemies use? Perhaps not. I blame Final Fantasy for that bit of silliness. But the point stands: melee weapons in Star Wars are both common and internally consistent.

 

Finally (and most importantly): Star Wars is Not Sci-Fi. Star Wars is fantasy, set in space. Asking why someone in Star Wars is using a vibrosword instead of a blaster is just as pointless as asking why a dwarf is using an axe instead of a longbow. If you're using physics principles or advanced tactical strategy to question some aspect of the universe, then you're missing the point.

[FalcoLombardi]

I'm fairly sure the reason all current armies use guns rather than knives isn't purely because of preference.

 

She's probably more talking about murderers. Which leads to the point that gun control won't prevent murder because people will just use something else

[Goretzu]

*puts on flame shield*

It is because Lucas read the Dune books before "creating" the Star Wars stories. One uses melee weapons because of the use of shields against projectile and blaster fire.

 

I wonder which of the literay sources he got lightsabers from.

 

you know what I mean. It's 3am where I am, I'm not thinking straight

 

Yeah, but it all goes back to suspension of belief, otherwise it all falls apart. Which is fine, if not always the best way.

[Darth-Malice]

The Imperial Guard all are masters of Melee weapons. Why? Because they fight force users all the time on par with them.

[Goretzu]

She's probably more talking about murderers. Which leads to the point that gun control won't prevent murder because people will just use something else

 

Nothing will prevent murders. But that doesn't mean that knives somehow are more deadly or more "powerful" than guns. Although there is a significant drop in murder per capita in regions where there is gun control.

[Goretzu]

I did not claim anything of the sort. This is the first post of mine that you responded to.

 

Then you agree that guns > melee weaponary in modern combat. Fair enough.

 

 

 

See, 2 statements. 1 indicates that weapons other than guns still have a place in our world. The second illustrates why in the SWTOR universe people would use a vibrosword as a primary weapon, because they can better deal with people who are immune to blaster fire.

 

Again though it takes suspension of belief for them to be a primary weapon, otherwise we're back to RL where they clearly are not.

 

It was that statement that my British Army example countered, it is not all you get in the real world. Its often what you get but not all the time.

Again though a very specific example against an untrained mob with very few real choices and the element of surprise. That is not "often", it is "once" which is a completely different thing.

 

 

Why were so many early Kevlar vests good against bullets but provided little protection against knives? The energy delivered by a melee weapon is in a different form than that in a blaster bolt, what protects against 1 type may not protect well against another.

 

If you were a soldier then should know that vests aren't effective against anything but hand guns, and are fairly useless against other sort of "bullets" and that stopping a hand gun bullet is a different kettle of fish to most knife attacks (it's actually about force over area of impact - a correctly shaped knife will go through in a way a normal bullet won't, however a bullet with the same impact properties as a knife would also easily penetrate, as would a bullet hitting with much more force than an average handgun round).

 

If an energy shield system worked in the same way as kevlar slows a bullet then basically any shield would fail after 1 shot or blow from anything.

 

Although of course most modern equipment now offers protection from both types of impact, by combining different materials.

[yerbigpops]

In response to a few of these comments, I'd just like to point out that laser/blaster distinction isn't my point. The point is that a significant number of npc's and companions use melee weapons instead of deadly ranged weapons (non-force users). Of course, there are some exceptions that make sense.

 

I am confused as to why this melee trend seems to exist so strongly in the time period of SWTOR but not in the future where technology is supposed to be improved. In the movies I never saw clone commandos or storm troopers using melee weapons. What made the shields irrelevant?

 

On my trooper I have a squad of special forces soldiers, two of which can't even hold a rifle. Having read the Republic Commando series, I have to say it is a little disappointing because it feels like I am rolling around with a squad of clowns (color unification not working on companions doesn't help), not a unified team of elite soldiers. Melee weapons when in a close quarters situation are one thing, but uniformed imperial or republic soldiers bum rushing me with swords and staves in an open field is another. My characters don't possess one of these special shields (except for tanks i guess?), so why don't they just shoot me?

 

I think it's the companions that bother me the most. I'd love to have the option to choose their weapon type, but I suppose that is too much to ask for at this point. Hopefully we will at least be given some options in the future.

[chimunga]

In response to a few of these comments, I'd just like to point out that laser/blaster distinction isn't my point. The point is that a significant number of npc's and companions use melee weapons instead of deadly ranged weapons (non-force users). Of course, there are some exceptions that make sense.

 

I am confused as to why this melee trend seems to exist so strongly in the time period of SWTOR but not in the future where technology is supposed to be improved. In the movies I never saw clone commandos or storm troopers using melee weapons. What made the shields irrelevant?

 

On my trooper I have a squad of special forces soldiers, two of which can't even hold a rifle. Having read the Republic Commando series, I have to say it is a little disappointing because it feels like I am rolling around with a squad of clowns (color unification not working on companions doesn't help), not a unified team of elite soldiers. Melee weapons when in a close quarters situation are one thing, but uniformed imperial or republic soldiers bum rushing me with swords and staves in an open field is another. My characters don't possess one of these special shields (except for tanks i guess?), so why don't they just shoot me?

 

I think it's the companions that bother me the most. I'd love to have the option to choose their weapon type, but I suppose that is too much to ask for at this point. Hopefully we will at least be given some options in the future.

 

It's because it's a game. Not a movie or a book, and therefore it needs to have a balance of both melee and ranged mobs. There was bound to be some changes between the movies and an MMO.

 

However, I do understand what you're saying about companions. Torian having a vibrosword doesn't make much sense. But once again, it's a game that needs balance, and every class gets both a ranged and a melee tank. Blizz being a melee tank would make even less sense than Torian.

[Goretzu]

It's because it's a game. Not a movie or a book, and therefore it needs to have a balance of both melee and ranged mobs. There was bound to be some changes between the movies and an MMO.

 

However, I do understand what you're saying about companions. Torian having a vibrosword doesn't make much sense. But once again, it's a game that needs balance, and every class gets both a ranged and a melee tank. Blizz being a melee tank would make even less sense than Torian.

 

It's just a shame they didn't change all the stats when they changed the weapons they used.