Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[Skolops]

If that was true, Aion would have retained a lot more subs than it did since gear progression was a HUGE part of the game.

 

Logical fallacy. Just because something is a necessary condition for retaining subs, it doesn't mean it is a sufficient condition.

 

If I open a restaurant, a necessary condition for my success is that I sell food. However, that's not a sufficient condition. I also need to meet other benchmarks, like having a good location, competitive prices, good food, etc.

[Fyda]

One point to be made about the progression-free model of games like guild wars 2.... Fully half of the player base will, by definition, be below average. What motivates them to log in if their skills are simply inferior?

 

In a progression MMO, at least you can hide behind the crutch of better gear.

 

Uhm, League of Legends is the most played game in the world currently. There are baddies and they still play it. Why? FUN!

[Skolops]

Uhm, League of Legends is the most played game in the world currently. There are baddies and they still play it. Why? FUN!

 

If LoL is the standard on which which the quality of video games are to be judged and its community the standard for communities, I will have to stop playing games altogether.

[Fyda]

If LoL is the standard on which which the quality of video games are to be judged and its community the standard for communities, I will have to stop playing games altogether.

 

Uhm? Just because a game it simple doesn't mean it's bad o0 Counter Strike, TF2, are very simple and still masterpieces of fun.

[Skolops]

Uhm? Just because a game it simple doesn't mean it's bad o0 Counter Strike, TF2, are very simple and still masterpieces of fun.

 

I personally don't find any of those games - but especially LoL and other DotA style games - fun at all. Of course, that's personal preference.

 

Now, the absolute travesty that is the DotA/LoL community is another matter, and I don't think there's anything subjective about that.

[heechJunzi]

Uhm, League of Legends is the most played game in the world currently. There are baddies and they still play it. Why? FUN!

LoL has matchmaking... so baddies are playing baddies. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that won't exist in any form in GW2. (And of course, doesn't exist here on SWTOR.)

[majikx]

Those aren't the kinds of carrots on sticks that motivate people, though. As I've said before, psychologists have actually studied how MMOs addictive qualities keep people playing. The gear progression is a HUGE part of it.

 

I would like to see these studies or talk to the psychologist that did them. would like to know if the studies were about pve or pvp or just a lump collection. from all the years that i have played these games and all the PvPers i have met in them and the ones i know in real life, the best carrot on a stick for them is bragging rights.

 

put in some kind of monthly / weekly leader board that tracks things like

 

1. most kills stuct/world

2. most wins struct.

3. win % stuct. (with say at least 25 matches for the week)

4. most keep takes / defended

 

 

also not sure if it is true as, just something i have heard is that in GW2 they will have tournaments on each server and the winners of said tournaments will have a plaque or statue made in game for them. will probably be an area in the capital city or maybe the training area. if anyone could confirm or dismiss this i would appreciate it.

 

in my experience these are the types of things that keep PvP players playing. well as long as the PvP is fun. if it isn't then it really doesn't matter what you do

 

gear progression seems like more of a PvE thing that trickled its way over into PvP. everyone that was progressing in PvE (raids) brought their new toys into PvP to beat up on people. so now the people who got beat up had to go get better gear, and thus the cycle of gear progression for PvP started.

[Skolops]

I would like to see these studies or talk to the psychologist that did them. would like to know if the studies were about pve or pvp or just a lump collection. from all the years that i have played these games and all the PvPers i have met in them and the ones i know in real life, the best carrot on a stick for them is bragging rights.

 

put in some kind of monthly / weekly leader board that tracks things like

 

1. most kills stuct/world

2. most wins struct.

3. win % stuct. (with say at least 25 matches for the week)

4. most keep takes / defended

 

 

also not sure if it is true as, just something i have heard is that in GW2 they will have tournaments on each server and the winners of said tournaments will have a plaque or statue made in game for them. will probably be an area in the capital city or maybe the training area. if anyone could confirm or dismiss this i would appreciate it.

 

in my experience these are the types of things that keep PvP players playing. well as long as the PvP is fun. if it isn't then it really doesn't matter what you do

 

gear progression seems like more of a PvE thing that trickled its way over into PvP. everyone that was progressing in PvE (raids) brought their new toys into PvP to beat up on people. so now the people who got beat up had to go get better gear, and thus the cycle of gear progression for PvP started.

 

I've heard that about the statues as well. The thing is, remember that what has been under discussion here is those players who aren't good enough to achieve all of those things. Your average or bad players in a game like TOR or WoW are at least motivated to log in each day to work towards their gear, whereas these same players in GW2 may not log in as much. At least, the question is whether or not they'll be motivated to do so.

[Necrosov]

LoL has matchmaking... so baddies are playing baddies. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that won't exist in any form in GW2. (And of course, doesn't exist here on SWTOR.)

 

You are wrong. GW2 sPvP currently - as of right this second- ( I'm playing stress test atm YAY! ) works like this : You enter the staging area and choose your gear , traits, abilities... etc and then you go talk to the "PvP Browser" NPC that lets you select a game of your choosing from a server list OR you can click "play now" that does match making based on your cumulated Glory points ( points you earn by PvPing ). Arenanet knows their **** boy!

 

This isn't some half-assed game here guys - sorry to burst your bubble

Edited August 2, 2012 by Necrosov

[Astarica]

In theory, it's better to have a fun game than a grinding game. However, most games can't figure out what's fun, so in absence of fun you can get away with grind because it's at least easy to figure out how to make a grind. You really want something that's fun instead, but if you don't know how to make a fun game you got to settle for something else to keep people busy.

 

When you hear about a game having no 'viable end game content', that really means 'the devs thought the game was fun but it turned out it was not'. Because you can also easily misjudge what's fun, most devs play it safe by going with a grind because it's imposible to misjudge what's a grind and hope they actually have something fun, even though they usually do not.

[GeneralShade]

So all the "leet" pvpers are leaving eh? Woot, that leaves room for scrubs like me to get a piece of the pie

[RobNightfall]

So all the "leet" pvpers are leaving eh? Woot, that leaves room for scrubs like me to get a piece of the pie

 

Lol it's not the leet players, it's the bored ones. Like me. And GW2 is nothing but an improvement over this game. Now, granted, that's not saying much, but it's an improvement and it's free after purchase with no content restrictions. So I can play it and keep an eye on ArchAge and the new Pathfinder game that Goblinworks is working on (way, way, early development).

[GeneralShade]

And GW2 is nothing but an improvement over this game.

Meh...a matter of tastes. I'm not terribly into the attunement dancing I had to do with My Elementalist in my beta experiences with GW2....and no mounts during WvWvW was just awful...Not dissing on GW2 or anything (I have it pre-ordered) but I think it is *way* over-rated.

[Necrosov]

Those aren't the kinds of carrots on sticks that motivate people, though. As I've said before, psychologists have actually studied how MMOs addictive qualities keep people playing. The gear progression is a HUGE part of it.

 

This isn't a pay to play MMO. They do not need to provide operant conditioning incentives to keep playing the game. The money they make is from box sales and supplemented by the cash shop. They also make money by releasing expansion packs - they follow the same formula as Guild Wars 1 which is obviously a successful one.

[Necrosov]

Meh...a matter of tastes. I'm not terribly into the attunement dancing I had to do with My Elementalist in my beta experiences with GW2....and no mounts during WvWvW was just awful...Not dissing on GW2 or anything (I have it pre-ordered) but I think it is *way* over-rated.

 

Mounts would make it so awful imo -it would just be a never ending zerg of people. It doesn't take that long to get back to where your were at honestly. Anyone can come rez you too, That is one of the things I dislike about SWTOR PvP is I keep killing the same ******e and his buddy defending a node over and over again on the Alderaan map and all they do is keep re-spawning and throwing themselves at me until I finally am whittled down enough and die.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Necrosov

[GeneralShade]

Mounts would make it so awful imo -it would just be a never ending zerg of people. It doesn't take that long to get back to where your were at honestly. Anyone can come rez you too, That is one of the things I dislike about SWTOR PvP is I keep killing the same ******e and his buddy defending a node over and over again on the Alderaan map and all they do is keep re-spawning and throwing themselves at me until I finally am whittled down enough and die.

 

This is not how my beta experience was. Our server happened to dominate the majority of the map and the places that I could spawn were very far from any type of enemy opposition. So after any death there was a long walk to where the action was. And as a lone wolf you're not always gonna have someone be able to rez you. But different tastes, as I said earlier.

 

 

Edit: typo

Edited August 3, 2012 by GeneralShade

[Skolops]

You are wrong. GW2 sPvP currently - as of right this second- ( I'm playing stress test atm YAY! ) works like this : You enter the staging area and choose your gear , traits, abilities... etc and then you go talk to the "PvP Browser" NPC that lets you select a game of your choosing from a server list OR you can click "play now" that does match making based on your cumulated Glory points ( points you earn by PvPing ). Arenanet knows their **** boy!

 

This isn't some half-assed game here guys - sorry to burst your bubble

 

That's like matching people in TOR based on valor. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill. Don't try to win this one - the fact that there's no skill-based matchmaking is one of the negative items in most of the reviews.

[Scritchy]

That's like matching people in TOR based on valor. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill. Don't try to win this one - the fact that there's no skill-based matchmaking is one of the negative items in most of the reviews.

I thought most of the negative reviews were because of how instanced it was, or that there was no gear grind?

[Skolops]

Having been watching a lot more videos, it still does seem to me that TOR has more of a mental side and a skill to it in some ways.

 

For example, many of the classes in TOR are set up so that your goal is to build up X stacks of X buff, or do a particular rotation to set up a given proc, or whatever the case may be. You also need to find a way to do this in the dynamic environment of a warzone, so you can't actually just go through your rotation mechanically but find a way to get your stacks and procs while dealing with what the enemy is doing.

 

Meanwhile, you're also trying to prevent your enemies from building their stacks and activating their procs, along with recognizing when they have them and defending appropriately.

 

Now in GW2, I just see abilities on a bar which are really disconnected from one another. Through the trait system, you are able to proc certain stat gains or "independent" states/conditions (e.g., swiftness) by using your abilities, but I haven't seen any way in which the abilities themselves "change" or become buffed or whatnot based on how, when, or in what order you execute them. For example, when facing a Rage Juggernaut you need to do your best to prevent him from building up his 4 stacks to set up his smash, and he is trying to do that. When I watch these videos and look at skill calculators for GW2, it looks far simpler than this.

 

I quite sincerely say, correct me (with an example or two) if I am wrong.

 

I also find that in virtually every single video of the sPvP I've found, it's nothing more than a bunch of zerging from one point to the other. I don't even see teams trying to hold points - they capture them, and then almost every time the entire team leaves to go somewhere else. If that is the style of PvP that wins in GW2, it's another negative in my book. Thoughts?

[Astarica]

That's like matching people in TOR based on valor. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill. Don't try to win this one - the fact that there's no skill-based matchmaking is one of the negative items in most of the reviews.

 

Good matching + poor rating trumps poor matching + good rating.

 

Let's say I got 4 guys that I need to split to a 2on2, and their valor levels are 60, 70, 80, and 90. So I probably put the 60+90 guy in one team and 70+80 team on the other team.

 

Now you can say this really doesn't guaranteed anything, and sure that's true but currently in SWTOR it's more like let's put the 80+90 guy together because what can possibly go wrong? Well 80+90 guy in one team is still more likely to be wrong compared to 60+90 even though valor is a poor indicator of skill.

 

Of course in theory we'd like to have a rating system that works, but if you only have one of the two, better to have a good matchmaking system over a good rating system. Valor means more than people give credit for. For one thing, you must accumulate a lot of commendations to get gear in PvP, which is reflected on your valor. It's also an indicator of experience, that is someone at valor 100 clearly has seen more WZs than someone at valor 10. That might not make him a better player, but you can usually have very high confidence a valor 90+ guy isn't going to be a total newbie, while you absolutely have no idea with someone under valor 50.

[Skolops]

I thought most of the negative reviews were because of how instanced it was, or that there was no gear grind?

 

Once again, you're acting like a fanboy who can't allow anyone to have a single thing bad to say about the game. It really makes your opinion a lot less valuable to me and to anyone else.

 

I think TOR is a great game, but I can acknowledge areas I think it has faults or needs to improve.

 

I am also looking forward to GW2, but I don't think it will be perfect and I am trying to understand and objectively evaluate those areas where it may be lacking. The reviews I have read are virtually each positive, but like any good reviews they do mention negative points, and the lack of a skill-based ranking system and the degree of instancing are two items I have seen in more than one review.

[Skolops]

Good matching + poor rating trumps poor matching + good rating.

 

Let's say I got 4 guys that I need to split to a 2on2, and their valor levels are 60, 70, 80, and 90. So I probably put the 60+90 guy in one team and 70+80 team on the other team.

 

Now you can say this really doesn't guaranteed anything, and sure that's true but currently in SWTOR it's more like let's put the 80+90 guy together because what can possibly go wrong? Well 80+90 guy in one team is still more likely to be wrong compared to 60+90 even though valor is a poor indicator of skill.

 

Of course in theory we'd like to have a rating system that works, but if you only have one of the two, better to have a good matchmaking system over a good rating system. Valor means more than people give credit for. For one thing, you must accumulate a lot of commendations to get gear in PvP, which is reflected on your valor. It's also an indicator of experience, that is someone at valor 100 clearly has seen more WZs than someone at valor 10. That might not make him a better player, but you can usually have very high confidence a valor 90+ guy isn't going to be a total newbie, while you absolutely have no idea with someone under valor 50.

 

Not true at all. Valor means absolutely nothing more than time played. There are players I have seen who are Elite Warlords and have not clue whatsoever what they're doing. I basically capped a door against a guy of 100 valor because he used his CC break as soon as I sapped him, letting me resap and cap FTW.

 

Also, just because someone has a valor of only 55, that doesn't mean he doesn't have 3 other toons with 100 valor , while a guy with 100 valor might be an awful player without a single alt who just plays a lot.

[Astarica]

Having been watching a lot more videos, it still does seem to me that TOR has more of a mental side and a skill to it in some ways.

 

For example, many of the classes in TOR are set up so that your goal is to build up X stacks of X buff, or do a particular rotation to set up a given proc, or whatever the case may be. You also need to find a way to do this in the dynamic environment of a warzone, so you can't actually just go through your rotation mechanically but find a way to get your stacks and procs while dealing with what the enemy is doing.

 

Meanwhile, you're also trying to prevent your enemies from building their stacks and activating their procs, along with recognizing when they have them and defending appropriately.

 

Now in GW2, I just see abilities on a bar which are really disconnected from one another. Through the trait system, you are able to proc certain stat gains or "independent" states/conditions (e.g., swiftness) by using your abilities, but I haven't seen any way in which the abilities themselves "change" or become buffed or whatnot based on how, when, or in what order you execute them. For example, when facing a Rage Juggernaut you need to do your best to prevent him from building up his 4 stacks to set up his smash, and he is trying to do that. When I watch these videos and look at skill calculators for GW2, it looks far simpler than this.

 

I quite sincerely say, correct me (with an example or two) if I am wrong.

 

I also find that in virtually every single video of the sPvP I've found, it's nothing more than a bunch of zerging from one point to the other. I don't even see teams trying to hold points - they capture them, and then almost every time the entire team leaves to go somewhere else. If that is the style of PvP that wins in GW2, it's another negative in my book. Thoughts?

 

I think it's pointless to try to guess how gameplay works based on videos. Unless you know someone who has the exact same playstle as you do and thus can use his opinion in lieu of yours, I prefer to just play the game to see if it fits your style. I really like the PvP in SWTOR even though I'm not a fan of PvP in MMORPG in general. There's nothing from the previews or videos that could've told me this fact. Generally speaking I look at videos/forums/etc to get an idea of if there might be something crazily bad with the game. E.g. you go to FF14 forum and you heard server is in Japan and people say it takes you 0.5s after you click on something before it responds. Although you've never played FF14, you can reasonably be sure that this is an incredibly dumb thing so you avoid the game. This is a legitmate conclusion without ever playing the product. But this doesn't really work for positive things. You simply can't look at a video and say, "Yep I know this is going to be awesome" without actually playing the game.

[Scritchy]

Once again, you're acting like a fanboy who can't allow anyone to have a single thing bad to say about the game. It really makes your opinion a lot less valuable to me and to anyone else.

 

I think TOR is a great game, but I can acknowledge areas I think it has faults or needs to improve.

 

I am also looking forward to GW2, but I don't think it will be perfect and I am trying to understand and objectively evaluate those areas where it may be lacking. The reviews I have read are virtually each positive, but like any good reviews they do mention negative points, and the lack of a skill-based ranking system and the degree of instancing are two items I have seen in more than one review.

Not a fanboy, but pointing out your inconsistencies. So far you have said that GW2 being overly instanced was a primary thing in all the reviews you read. But then, lack of a gear grind is the biggest concern. And now, lack of a rating system is the biggest concern.

 

So which is it?

[Skolops]

I think it's pointless to try to guess how gameplay works based on videos. Unless you know someone who has the exact same playstle as you do and thus can use his opinion in lieu of yours, I prefer to just play the game to see if it fits your style. I really like the PvP in SWTOR even though I'm not a fan of PvP in MMORPG in general. There's nothing from the previews or videos that could've told me this fact. Generally speaking I look at videos/forums/etc to get an idea of if there might be something crazily bad with the game. E.g. you go to FF14 forum and you heard server is in Japan and people say it takes you 0.5s after you click on something before it responds. Although you've never played FF14, you can reasonably be sure that this is an incredibly dumb thing so you avoid the game. This is a legitmate conclusion without ever playing the product. But this doesn't really work for positive things. You simply can't look at a video and say, "Yep I know this is going to be awesome" without actually playing the game.

 

Sure, but I can look through skill calculators myself or read through well-received builds that others have made and see that, hey, regardless of where any of these points go or what abilities I use in what order, these attackswill always basically do the same thing. Now TOR has SOME classes like that - a Sharpshooter Gunslinger, for instance - but at least from what I can tell all of the classes/builds work that way in GW2. Again, this is just from what I can tell looking at it, so I'm happy to be corrected if someone can provide a few examples.