Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[Skolops]

Yet why are those people's opinions important? For the game to be in balance now- it would mean that before you believed that sorcs were very overpowered- and back then there were arguments that sorcs were op because of Force Lightning's stun (which didn't exist), stealth (which they don't have), etc... The class received a heavy nerf- which can't be disputed if you look at the facts- so anyone believing them balanced now believed them unbalanced before yet where were the logical arguments defending that?

 

Two weeks back there was a study of 200 RWZ matches- sorcs did less damage, were taken five times less often than mara, died an average of 10 times per match while mara averaged at 5- stats. Side by side defensive CD comparisons, gap closer/gap keeper, damage output, interrupt vs avoiding interrupt capability- all of them through abilities and play are proven to greatly favour the marauder.

 

So why does the opinions of some idiots who think sorcs have stealth and marauders have force push matter? There's plenty of people who know, or even play both sorcs and mara at max level and have shown through proof the differences, or spoken through experience on the differences.

 

That doesn't even get into the huge drop in sorc, merc and dps op subs following 1.2- when 25% of your playerbase leaves in a month following a patch BW should have done something- yet there is still no response to that months later.

 

I don't understand your first paragraph, but as for the rest, I don't really disagree. In fact it's precisely my point - someone who thinks Force Lightning has a stun or marauders have a push has opinions that have very little weight or value to them when discussing the game's quality or class balance or whatnot. Now, if there are some people who do understand the game and think there is balance issue X, Y, or Z, that's another conversation to have, but my original point was simply that 80% of the people who say this game is awful and are going to play GW2 instead have these kinds of idiocies in their posts, and so I don't consider their preference for GW2 to be of any "statistical weight" for lack of a better term.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Skolops

[Morrolan]

Also, have you played the GW2 beta? (That's a genuine question, not meant as a "gotcha!" question).

Uh one could quite easily turn that question back on you given all the conclusions you're drawing about the game.

 

All 3 BWES for me so unlike you I have direct experience.

[Skolops]

Which is different how from SWTOR? In pvp you wear a different set of gear, and you have a different spec- now, SWTOR is very limited, in that 90% of players have the same cookie cutter builds because there's really no room to experiment, and BW had a campaign to systematically ruin every hybrid that popped up early on- in GW2, you have different stats, different gear, and would likely pick a different spec than in pve- you essentially get a bolster which is not unlike SWTOR- except it bolsters you to max level, keeps everyone together and there's no twinking out weapons at level 49 for big advantages, or huge gear difference between recruit and WH.

 

I'm very confused where you're coming from at this point on this issue. The argument that the GW2 folks - and you, whether or not you could be called a GW2 person - has been precisely that GW2 has a better system because it lets you have a "different" character when you enter PvP - it lets you, at any time, really, have whatever character you want in PvP, regardless of what you have managed to do in leveling or anything else.

 

Yet now you're saying that GW2 has a system similar to TOR's other than a more flexible talent system (the talent system issue being something I'd disagree with, but that's a different argument).

[Skolops]

Uh one could quite easily turn that question back on you given all the conclusions you're drawing about the game.

 

All 3 BWES for me so unlike you I have direct experience.

 

There would be no need to "turn the question back on me," as it wasn't intended to make any point. That's why I explicitly and clearly wrote into the question that it wasn't meant to attack or make a point. I was asking it to obtain information on a topic I would like to learn more about.

 

This is why I get so frustrated in these forums. No matter how often you say something - even in the very post someone quotes!! - they will either completely miss it or misrepresent you.

[fungihoujo]

I don't understand your first paragraph, but as for the rest, I don't really disagree. In fact it's precisely my point - someone who thinks Force Lightning has a stun or marauders have a push has opinions that have very little weight or value to them when discussing the game's quality or class balance or whatnot. Now, if there are some people who do understand the game and think there is balance issue X, Y, or Z, that's another conversation to have, but my original point was simply that 80% of the people who say this game is awful and are going to play GW2 instead have these kinds of idiocies in their posts, and so I don't consider their preference for GW2 to be of any "statistical weight" for lack of a better term.

 

Nobody values those opinions- my point is simple. There are a lot of people who DO know the abilities, have played the classes, there's proof in stats, there's side by side comparisons and skilled player's anecdotes which all point to this game being extremely unbalanced- and that is what matters, and that is what has been completely ignored by BW for months- and that's what has led the pvp side of this game to suddenly break down entirely. This wasn't a gradual drop in subs- this was a sudden disappearance of subs and online players that was very noticeable on almost every server immediately following 1.2.

 

BW refuses to acknowledge that- even as they gear up for F2P. It's not just bads who have noticed the huge failure of SWTOR's pvp- and it is definitely not only the bads who will be going to GW2- and BW would have been wise to heed the warnings rather than wait until it was too late- and now, it's simply too late, and they are forced to rely not on themselves but on Anet, which has proven themselves in pvp already- to mess up terribly on the implementation of their good ideas for pvp.

[Skolops]

Nobody values those opinions- my point is simple. There are a lot of people who DO know the abilities, have played the classes, there's proof in stats, there's side by side comparisons and skilled player's anecdotes which all point to this game being extremely unbalanced- and that is what matters, and that is what has been completely ignored by BW for months- and that's what has led the pvp side of this game to suddenly break down entirely. This wasn't a gradual drop in subs- this was a sudden disappearance of subs and online players that was very noticeable on almost every server immediately following 1.2.

 

BW refuses to acknowledge that- even as they gear up for F2P. It's not just bads who have noticed the huge failure of SWTOR's pvp- and it is definitely not only the bads who will be going to GW2- and BW would have been wise to heed the warnings rather than wait until it was too late- and now, it's simply too late, and they are forced to rely not on themselves but on Anet, which has proven themselves in pvp already- to mess up terribly on the implementation of their good ideas for pvp.

 

I think you're really misreading the drop in subs after 1.2. A few different factors went into that, but I don't think balance was a huge one.

 

Primarily, patch 1.2 came at a time which was the nexus of two important factors. First, it came out right as many, many people's 6 month subs ran out. Second, there were a lot of people who were considering leaving but wanted to wait for patch 1.2 to see if it met the expectations they had been waiting for. Now I don't know what every individual person wanted, but the biiiiig thing was that ranked warzones didn't come out with 1.2, and that meant that a whole heap of people either unsubbed or didn't renew and let their 6 month subs run out because the patch didn't provide what they were hoping for.

 

I very, very much disagree with the notion that balance was any significant factor in that large pitfall.

[Morrolan]

There would be no need to "turn the question back on me," as it wasn't intended to make any point. That's why I explicitly and clearly wrote into the question that it wasn't meant to attack or make a point. I was asking it to obtain information on a topic I would like to learn more about.

 

This is why I get so frustrated in these forums. No matter how often you say something - even in the very post someone quotes!! - they will either completely miss it or misrepresent you.

 

IMHO by even writing it you're passively trying to make the point you claim not to be making. I could equally argue that you're misrepresenting the arguments of others on here such as your claim just above that the arguments in favour of GW2 PvP are that you're making different characters for it.

[fungihoujo]

I'm very confused where you're coming from at this point on this issue. The argument that the GW2 folks - and you, whether or not you could be called a GW2 person - has been precisely that GW2 has a better system because it lets you have a "different" character when you enter PvP - it lets you, at any time, really, have whatever character you want in PvP, regardless of what you have managed to do in leveling or anything else.

 

Yet now you're saying that GW2 has a system similar to TOR's other than a more flexible talent system (the talent system issue being something I'd disagree with, but that's a different argument).

 

It's not a different character- it's a bolstered character that is on equal grounds- which is how pvp should be, and how it is in pretty much every single competitive game in the world. SWTOR does use this system for pre-50 pvp, to a degree though you do not get equal talents and there's ways to bolster your gear up. The difference is in max level pvp you have hundreds of hours of play to get to an equal level- but you're still doing separate things from when you're in pve.

 

To simplify- in pvp you don't have to level, you don't have to gear up to pvp on equal terms. That's pretty much all there is to it. If you consider yourself not playing that character because you haven't done that grind- that's a personal thing and nothing more. You have the flexibility to spec and gear how you choose- not how your time played allows you.

 

It's much more like the games that are considered competitive- such as how League/DotA you can choose whatever champ you like.

 

It doesn't mean anything about being attached to your character- if you want to roleplay or get attached or whatever, you can decide to just pve away and not reroll for a new FotM, nobody's stopping you- but on the flipside, nobody's stopping those who want to play the best class, who don't want to be gimped because some dev decided this month would be a good time to reduce the damage output of your class by 50%.

[Scritchy]

Primarily, patch 1.2 came at a time which was the nexus of two important factors. First, it came out right as many, many people's 6 month subs ran out.

It wasn't 6 month subs running out, the game released in Dec and 1.2 hit 4 months later in April.

[fungihoujo]

I think you're really misreading the drop in subs after 1.2. A few different factors went into that, but I don't think balance was a huge one.

 

Primarily, patch 1.2 came at a time which was the nexus of two important factors. First, it came out right as many, many people's 6 month subs ran out. Second, there were a lot of people who were considering leaving but wanted to wait for patch 1.2 to see if it met the expectations they had been waiting for. Now I don't know what every individual person wanted, but the biiiiig thing was that ranked warzones didn't come out with 1.2, and that meant that a whole heap of people either unsubbed or didn't renew and let their 6 month subs run out because the patch didn't provide what they were hoping for.

 

I very, very much disagree with the notion that balance was any significant factor in that large pitfall.

 

Uh, I have a six month sub... it runs out for the first time this month (6 months+ 1 month free for buying game, another free month because they gave one away after 1.2 to appease people who were pissed off at the patch).

 

Also- RWZ is not very popular even when it did come out- not the thing that keeps people. It also should be noted that sorc, merc, op percentages dropped massively- while PT and marauders surged after 1.2- which is RWZ was one of the big things those numbers would make no sense... if a huge nerf to the first three classes however and the making of PT and mara to best classes in the game were the cause- we'd have the results that were exactly what happened.

 

I for one prefer to go with the theories that actually match the data.

[Skolops]

It wasn't 6 month subs running out, the game released in Dec and 1.2 hit 4 months later in April.

 

Whatever the precise timing was, it was a lack of satisfaction with what was delivered in 1.2 that inspired them to refrain from renewing.

[Scritchy]

Whatever the precise timing was, it was a lack of satisfaction with what was delivered in 1.2 that inspired them to refrain from renewing.

It was the idiocy of the nerfs and buffs with no thought behind them, the lame linear leveling system, people getting bored with a gear grind just to compete in subpar PVP, and the fact that the game really is mediocre all on top of being told 48 hours before the patch hit that the one thing a lot of people were waiting for (rated warzones) were dropped from the patch.

 

Edit: The one thing that didn't contribute to the loss of subs was the timing and 6-month subs being up. Also, subs count all active subs, even if they aren't renewed. My 6-month sub has been canceled since Feb, yet my subscription is still active and counted in all the 'we have xxxx subscription' numbers.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Scritchy

[Skolops]

Uh, I have a six month sub... it runs out for the first time this month (6 months+ 1 month free for buying game, another free month because they gave one away after 1.2 to appease people who were pissed off at the patch).

 

Also- RWZ is not very popular even when it did come out- not the thing that keeps people. It also should be noted that sorc, merc, op percentages dropped massively- while PT and marauders surged after 1.2- which is RWZ was one of the big things those numbers would make no sense... if a huge nerf to the first three classes however and the making of PT and mara to best classes in the game were the cause- we'd have the results that were exactly what happened.

 

I for one prefer to go with the theories that actually match the data.

 

You seem like an intelligent enough person to know that one cannot simply reason with data the way you are here. In fact, there are several fallacies in this post.

 

First, whether or not ranked warzones are popular enough to keep people is not relevant to whether or not a lack of them was sufficient to turn people away. I can't even believe you're really trying to argue this point: there is absolutely no question that massive sub numbers dropped because ranked warzones did not come out.

 

Second, the fact that one event causes a second event to happen does not exclude the possibility of a third concurrent event. In other words, it is entirely plausible to expect that with a given patch we could see people leave for lack of ranked warzones while others roll buffed classes.

 

Third, just because we saw drops in the proportions of certain classes, that does not mean that the new classes being rolled were not being rolled by the same people who stopped playing the nerfed classes. In fact, given that there were so many subs lost during this period it is almost necessary that many, many, many of the newly rolled toons were simply rerolls from sorcs,etc.

 

I would add as something not directly related that there is somewhat of a contradiction in your saying on the one hand that these nerfed classes were too strong at the outset while on the other asserting that poor balance is a primary sub-killer in this game and pointing to the patch as the key moment when all of this came together.

[fungihoujo]

Whatever the precise timing was, it was a lack of satisfaction with what was delivered in 1.2 that inspired them to refrain from renewing.

 

... Yeah, that's pretty much what I said- people weren't satisfied because half the playerbase had their classes nerfed through the ground.

[Skolops]

It's not a different character- it's a bolstered character that is on equal grounds- which is how pvp should be, and how it is in pretty much every single competitive game in the world. SWTOR does use this system for pre-50 pvp, to a degree though you do not get equal talents and there's ways to bolster your gear up. The difference is in max level pvp you have hundreds of hours of play to get to an equal level- but you're still doing separate things from when you're in pve.

 

To simplify- in pvp you don't have to level, you don't have to gear up to pvp on equal terms. That's pretty much all there is to it. If you consider yourself not playing that character because you haven't done that grind- that's a personal thing and nothing more. You have the flexibility to spec and gear how you choose- not how your time played allows you.

 

It's much more like the games that are considered competitive- such as how League/DotA you can choose whatever champ you like.

 

It doesn't mean anything about being attached to your character- if you want to roleplay or get attached or whatever, you can decide to just pve away and not reroll for a new FotM, nobody's stopping you- but on the flipside, nobody's stopping those who want to play the best class, who don't want to be gimped because some dev decided this month would be a good time to reduce the damage output of your class by 50%.

 

I think I may have poorly conveyed myself. It's not primarily an RP kind of connection I'm looking for, though there is some small element of that. Rather, my concern is that the work and effort (even work and effort which is fun to undertake) that I put into a character is something I value. Compare it to the traditional American value of "anything worth having is worth working for" if you like, though it's not explicitly how I think about it. Ultimately, there is a way human beings connect with things in a deeper way the more they have put into them. It is frequently recognized that, for example, a person who has built a deck with his own bare hands enjoys it more than he does a deck that he orders from the local Home Depot.

 

Similarly, I enjoy the Shadow i have into which I have put hundreds and hundreds of hours far more than I would if I could even have a perfectly geared out Shadow with all the clothes just the way I like them, which came from an account I bought on eBay or something. It's this that I'll miss in GW2. Further, even after I have leveled the toon up all the way, I think I'll still feel a certain emptiness in it, because, although I will have put the work in, when I log into that PvP lobby area, the toon will be the same as it was the day I created it, and I'll always remember that and realize that all the work I did ultimately was for nothing.

[fungihoujo]

You seem like an intelligent enough person to know that one cannot simply reason with data the way you are here. In fact, there are several fallacies in this post.

 

First, whether or not ranked warzones are popular enough to keep people is not relevant to whether or not a lack of them was sufficient to turn people away. I can't even believe you're really trying to argue this point: there is absolutely no question that massive sub numbers dropped because ranked warzones did not come out.

 

Second, the fact that one event causes a second event to happen does not exclude the possibility of a third concurrent event. In other words, it is entirely plausible to expect that with a given patch we could see people leave for lack of ranked warzones while others roll buffed classes.

 

Third, just because we saw drops in the proportions of certain classes, that does not mean that the new classes being rolled were not being rolled by the same people who stopped playing the nerfed classes. In fact, given that there were so many subs lost during this period it is almost necessary that many, many, many of the newly rolled toons were simply rerolls from sorcs,etc.

 

I would add as something not directly related that there is somewhat of a contradiction in your saying on the one hand that these nerfed classes were too strong at the outset while on the other asserting that poor balance is a primary sub-killer in this game and pointing to the patch as the key moment when all of this came together.

 

Except... it all did- people playing those classes mostly left, the number of pvpers playing the game dropped drastically, total subs dropped drastically.

 

To say that 1.2 wasn't the turning point and that the huge drop in specific, heavily nerfed classes wasn't the cause of those nerfs is like saying 'we have all this proof that points towards this result being the consequence, then the result we expected from that proof did occur- but we are instead going to assume it is some other unknown cause which has made this happen'.

 

That doesn't make any sense. If a and b and c happen, and we predict that d will be the result because it is the most logical result, and then d happens- who in their right mind is going to then say 'it probably wasn't a and b and c, but e'?

 

When I drop an egg, I expect it will break open because I dropped it on something hard and that's normally what happens with egg. I'm not going to say 'well, it's probably actually because the egg decided to spontaneously combust at the exact moment it hit the ground, rather than it hitting the ground that made it open'.

[Skolops]

As to balance, I just posted this in a similar thread: I played a lot of SC2, a game praised for its balance, and I think that compared to TOR it is GROSSLY imbalanced. Honestly, the only class I think is all that much out of whack in TOR is the Powertech/Vanguard. Everything else - including the marauder - is in my experience playing AS and playing AGAINST these classes, a L2P issue, and this is where I go back to those 80% of people whose opinions don't matter, as they're really the primary ones who think there are so many huge problems in balance.

 

If there are good players who understand everything well and think the balance is severely off regarding any given class (apart from the PT/VG), I'd love to have an intelligent discussion with them and see where they are coming from, because they would really need to work hard to convince me.

[Scritchy]

It's this that I'll miss in GW2. Further, even after I have leveled the toon up all the way, I think I'll still feel a certain emptiness in it, because, although I will have put the work in, when I log into that PvP lobby area, the toon will be the same as it was the day I created it, and I'll always remember that and realize that all the work I did ultimately was for nothing.

You won't have the clothing in GW2 without putting the time and effort in. When you see somebody with the really fancy stuff, you will know it wasn't just handed to them and they had to put in a lot of effort to get it. That is why vanity items are the best rewards, they don't affect anything except the perceptions, both yours and others, of your character and they don't affect PVP at all.

 

Everything else - including the marauder - is in my experience playing AS and playing AGAINST these classes, a L2P issue, and this is where I go back to those 80% of people whose opinions don't matter, as they're really the primary ones who think there are so many huge problems in balance.

I can say, as playing all 3 tanks and a marauder, that the marauder having all the defensive cooldowns they do is a balance issue. It isn't a learn to play problem, it is a dev team are imbeciles problem.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Scritchy

[Skolops]

Except... it all did- people playing those classes mostly left, the number of pvpers playing the game dropped drastically, total subs dropped drastically.

 

To say that 1.2 wasn't the turning point and that the huge drop in specific, heavily nerfed classes wasn't the cause of those nerfs is like saying 'we have all this proof that points towards this result being the consequence, then the result we expected from that proof did occur- but we are instead going to assume it is some other unknown cause which has made this happen'.

 

That doesn't make any sense. If a and b and c happen, and we predict that d will be the result because it is the most logical result, and then d happens- who in their right mind is going to then say 'it probably wasn't a and b and c, but e'?

 

When I drop an egg, I expect it will break open because I dropped it on something hard and that's normally what happens with egg. I'm not going to say 'well, it's probably actually because the egg decided to spontaneously combust at the exact moment it hit the ground, rather than it hitting the ground that made it open'.

 

There are a few flaws in your argument, though.

 

First, the drop in subs was far too rapid for the balance to be the primary reason. It wasn't until after the majority of these people were already gone that there was enough experience to really judge things.

 

Second, if so many subs were lost, and so many people stopped playing their sorcs, ops, etc., and so many maras and PTs started showing up, then where did they come from if they weren't just rerolls from the people who used to play sorcs and ops?

[Skolops]

You won't have the clothing in GW2 without putting the time and effort in. When you see somebody with the really fancy stuff, you will know it wasn't just handed to them and they had to put in a lot of effort to get it. That is why vanity items are the best rewards, they don't affect anything except the perceptions, both yours and others, of your character and they don't affect PVP at all.

 

I know what you're saying, but its honestly just one thing amongst the many that in a game like TOR I have because I worked at it. It will be nice, but it isn't going to fill the entire gap.

[fungihoujo]

I think I may have poorly conveyed myself. It's not primarily an RP kind of connection I'm looking for, though there is some small element of that. Rather, my concern is that the work and effort (even work and effort which is fun to undertake) that I put into a character is something I value. Compare it to the traditional American value of "anything worth having is worth working for" if you like, though it's not explicitly how I think about it. Ultimately, there is a way human beings connect with things in a deeper way the more they have put into them. It is frequently recognized that, for example, a person who has built a deck with his own bare hands enjoys it more than he does a deck that he orders from the local Home Depot.

 

Similarly, I enjoy the Shadow i have into which I have put hundreds and hundreds of hours far more than I would if I could even have a perfectly geared out Shadow with all the clothes just the way I like them, which came from an account I bought on eBay or something. It's this that I'll miss in GW2. Further, even after I have leveled the toon up all the way, I think I'll still feel a certain emptiness in it, because, although I will have put the work in, when I log into that PvP lobby area, the toon will be the same as it was the day I created it, and I'll always remember that and realize that all the work I did ultimately was for nothing.

 

And, you can still spend hundreds of hours building up gear as it does take a lot of time to get gear in pvp- BUT it is only cosmetic gear, it has nothing to do with stats at all. If you are looking for a time sink to build up something, you still have it- the time sink just doesn't give anyone any advantage- period.

 

Also, we're talking about different things- I'm talking purely about competition and fun in the actual pvp match, and the fun from playing, achieving wins and having a good hard fought fight- you're talking about the gradual earning of something through effort, but a solid, tangible benefit to that work.

 

At which I'd agree to a point- the point being that if gear that is needed to be viable in pvp is the only tangible benefit considered worthy- then yes, GW2 is not the game for you, end of story. If cosmetic items, titles, etc... count for things you like to work for, then even those who like building up their character will enjoy the game.

 

And of course- for those who want to just play pvp and have fun, where the match is the fun itself- GW2 is obviously going to be the choice over SWTOR.

 

(and that's all I have time for- off to real life work I go)

[Scritchy]

I know what you're saying, but its honestly just one thing amongst the many that in a game like TOR I have because I worked at it. It will be nice, but it isn't going to fill the entire gap.

At this point you are going out of your way to be contrarian.

[Katsuragisama]

There are a few flaws in your argument, though.

 

First, the drop in subs was far too rapid for the balance to be the primary reason. It wasn't until after the majority of these people were already gone that there was enough experience to really judge things.

 

Second, if so many subs were lost, and so many people stopped playing their sorcs, ops, etc., and so many maras and PTs started showing up, then where did they come from if they weren't just rerolls from the people who used to play sorcs and ops?

 

Okay maybe not the balance, maybe people just played for a few months and game to the conclusion that it was WoW in Space. Speaking of which, I'm sure quite a few people came here from WoW initially. And from what I've seen of pictures comparing Sith Warrior to a WoW Warrior, they already had a pretty good idea of what the PvP was gonna be like.

 

That last part kind of went on and on in a very round-a-bout way to me. Not exactly sure what you're trying to say there. You said it earlier too. And what I got from it was... Yeah it sounds like you're just denying they lost subs because of perceived imbalance. And everyone just quit playing sorc/ops, and went mara/vangaurd. No, no... They just quit playing the game entirely. Unless you can clarify that... Meh, confused.

 

On to the next thing:

 

And, you can still spend hundreds of hours building up gear as it does take a lot of time to get gear in pvp- BUT it is only cosmetic gear, it has nothing to do with stats at all. If you are looking for a time sink to build up something, you still have it- the time sink just doesn't give anyone any advantage- period.

 

Also, we're talking about different things- I'm talking purely about competition and fun in the actual pvp match, and the fun from playing, achieving wins and having a good hard fought fight- you're talking about the gradual earning of something through effort, but a solid, tangible benefit to that work.

 

At which I'd agree to a point- the point being that if gear that is needed to be viable in pvp is the only tangible benefit considered worthy- then yes, GW2 is not the game for you, end of story. If cosmetic items, titles, etc... count for things you like to work for, then even those who like building up their character will enjoy the game.

 

And of course- for those who want to just play pvp and have fun, where the match is the fun itself- GW2 is obviously going to be the choice over SWTOR.

 

(and that's all I have time for- off to real life work I go)

 

Yeah, when I first started looking into GW2, that was the first thing that stood out to me. They will eventually add more Glory Vendor ranks, and add more armor and weapons. But the fact that I dont have to grind for it if I really dont want to, but just because it looks cool. And I'm not forced to just to stay competitive.....

 

Yeah I've seen some of the weapons from Glory Vendors from watching game play footage. And having a sexy pair of daggers to use when I feel like hopping into sPvP for some stabby stabby, is enough of a reason for me to keep grinding sPvP. Well, more like the 2nd reason. The first being because its fun.

 

But with TOR it was... Hit lvl 50. Grind Centurion/Champion gear. Grind to Rank 60, grind for Battlemaster gear. War Hero comes out, time to grind for that. Oh, now we can add augments. Time to hunt/craft some orange gear to augment to stay competitive. Take a break, come back. Oh, now everything can augmented and I got tired of the WH grind months ago... And I still dont feel like grinding it. Months and months of grinding for gear to stay competitive, is ... phew. Yeah I'm tired of it.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[WraitheDarkbane]

Once again, it really is coming down to philosophy. You are coming from the standpoint of some kind of lege-nominalism which holds that what is right and wrong is defined by what has been delcared to be so. I find this mindset to be grossly immoral and demonstrably intellectually bankrupt, but it's a discussion for another place and time.

 

What really matters is that, as far as the topic at hand is concerned, you think that there's nothing wrong with doing X, Y, or Z if the game rules allow it, whereas I believe that there is a more profound, inherent quality to given actions and concepts. That is, injustice or justice exists entirely apart from any rules or laws and is based on something more intrinsic to creation, existence, or whatever you'd like to call it.

 

Ok, let's get one thing straight first. We're talking about a video game not civil rights or anything even close to that. This is the second time you have made assumptions about how I feel about things outside of a video game and they are borderline insulting if not downright so. I'm glad you have these ideas on morality and it's good to know people do but this is about a video game and not civil liberties or freeing people from tyranny or oppresion. Your heart might be in a good place but it seems like you're taking video games a little too seriously. If we were discussing ethics and morality of things that actually affect how people live their lives I would probably be approaching it with a different mindset but this is only a video game.

 

Secondly, one of the things I have pointed out that you seem to be missing that people with a good amount of wisdom know is that when it comes to opinions there is in non-extreme cases no real right or wrong. Yes, you have some education and a vocabulary but I'm going to assume, as you have done so with me, that you are most likely in your early twenties or late teens (at the very least you have the mentality of one) and still have that "I know the answers to life's problems" mentality. Ask anyone above the age of 30 who acts like it and they will tell you that they look back on how they acted at that age and realize they didn't and don't know jack.

 

As I said, both arguments on this subject have validity because it is backed by reasoning coming from both parties. You seem to be of the mentality of "If you disagree with me you're wrong" and have even gone so far as to tell me my line of thinking is leading the destruction of the human race and morally and intellectually bankrupt. Well let me respond, your line of "anyone who doesn't agree with me is morally/ethically wrong" is the same type of thinking that leads to fundamentalist and fanatics commiting atrocities. Here's another thing, I work in education. I work to help people to learn so they can go on and find a better way of life through having better chances because of a college education. I work with socialist groups to work towards ending the inequities created by capitalism and I'm staunch supporter LBGT rights and have stood in defense of them against oppression. You're arguing for moral integrity of competition for a video game and you're not even doing it on that game's forum; and you seriously have the gall to call me morally and intellectually bankrupt? Question to answer to yourself: How much have you done to help real people with real problems outside of a video game?

[Skolops]

At this point you are going out of your way to be contrarian.

 

No, that is really how I feel. Please don't claim to be able to read my mind.