Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[Skolops]

Wow can you be more biased?

 

You say a lawyer can spend his time acquiring the same gear as college student only at a much slower pace.

 

To which I say,

 

A college student can purchase the same gear as a lawyer only at a much slower pace.

 

How do you not see that not having enough resources rather it is time or money is exactly the same is beyond me...

 

As I said in another post, it is because since time immemorial we have accepted as a society and culture that getting better at something through the expenditure of time is OK, but getting better at something by spending money is not - at least when that money is spent on a direct buff to a competitor.

 

We LIKE it if a baseball player works his butt off to get better. If, on the other hand, he goes out and buys some steroids, that is NOT ok with us.

 

Or, perhaps that's not the best way to put it, because we could think of examples like NASCAR where spending money on a better car makes you better. It may be better to say that we have accepted the notion of resources spent on oneself in a vein directly related to a competition as being OK, while resources spent on things outside of the competition's general boundaries are not. Thus, time spent playing the game to get better would be OK, but time spent on something entirely unrelated - one's job, for example - should not impact in game capabilities.

 

So then the other issue is that the college student is looking at being able to afford these buffs in limited quantities years and years down the line, whereas the attorney could afford them in essentially limitless quantities at any time. Where the time investment comes, the student and the attorney are much more closely matched.

 

Ultimately, it comes down to this: do I want to play a game wherein someone can attack me with a very powerful benefit he earned from playing the game? Yes, I am OK with that. Do I want to play a game where someone can attack me with a very weak benefit he earned from swiping a credit card? Not really, no.

[Skolops]

It was last weekend's beta.

 

I've seen it looking much better than that, Icebergy. From what I've seen, the lower settings do tend to look a bit like crap, but the higher ones look pretty nice.

[coerCez]

Ultimately, it comes down to this: do I want to play a game wherein someone can attack me with a very powerful benefit he earned from playing the game? Yes, I am OK with that. Do I want to play a game where someone can attack me with a very weak benefit he earned from swiping a credit card? Not really, no.

 

I am not quoting the rest of your post as it was full of contradictions in it's own context. You made many lethal flaws in your arguments and ultimately, failed miserably to try and hide your ever obvious bias towards the current system.

 

On the other hand, your last pharagraph illustrates perfectly that, you are "ok" with the situation you described solely because you have much more time to play rather then money to spend on the game. Which brings me to my last question, are you ok with the game that all things equal person A can spend 12 hours to get gear X and person B can spend $20 to get gear X?

[Necrosov]

It was last weekend's beta.

 

Must be one craptastic computer you got there.

 

http://imgur.com/a/xgG3U#0

[islander]

Most ( if not all ) CC effects in Guild Wars 2 last for a very short amount of time ( like 2 secs ). Also, there are multiple skills that have CC breakers and are on short cooldown. You can use the dodge ability to evade them too. Combat much more of an action/reaction game than a CC lockdown fest.

 

Hmm. May have to give him a try after all then. I've adapted to the TOR pvp, but doesn't mean I love it.

[WraitheDarkbane]

This is exactly the point. My ability to make money at my job should have ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING whatsoever on my ability to succeed in the game. They should be as separate as any two things can be. In opening a path for the two to go hand in hand, ArenaNet has made a game that is lacking in integrity.

 

Now, one poster has tried to argue that it is not lacking in integrity because, by its very definition, the developers permitting this practice means it is not in violation of any integrity. I would simply say that the integrity that is violated is one that goes deeper than adherence to the mere rules of this particular game. Rather, it violates the rules of competition in general that have been respected in our culture for years upon years upon years.

 

It's the general, universally understood and unwritten "rules" that hover over the Olympics, the World Cup, Major League Baseball, and any other competitive kind of game which this violates.

 

My issue here is that, for as long as anyone can remember everyone in the world has said, "It is unethical to buy an advantage in a competitive game or sport," and ArenaNet has come along and said, "No, it's ok."

 

Again your argument is full of assumptions and fallacies. First your ability to make money shouldn't have any bearing on the ability to succeed at the game yet in the first 10 or so pages you stated that gear gives no advantage over skill because you can beat full WH geared opponents in only recruit gear based on skill alone. Therefor this can lead to the argument that buying mechanical advantages (ie. gear, buffs, etc.) can not replace skill, by axiomatic principles of logic, which is in turn perfected by practice over time (is. the true definition of kung fu). Thus the player who has more time to play and less time making money can in most cases win.

 

Next, I didn't try to argue that point, I did argue that point. My wording and argument were clear and in probably well understood by anyone with a good grasp of the English language. You could possibly say that I tried to convince you and did not succeed but there was no trying in the argument. I succeeded in arguing, not in convincing. Which really doesn't matter because from what I have seen so far you will use whatever argument you can to avoid ceeding that your arguments could possibly be wrong. Kind of like how you switched tactics to the musical instrument argument giving advantage from the previous argument that the instrument (mechanical advantages) does not give an advantage.

 

Lastly, on to the argument that everyone says that buying advantages to gain victory in competition is wrong. Take a look at the winning streak of the NY Yankees. The Yankees had more money and therefor had the ability to sign better players due to being able to offer higher paying contracts. Look at the Olympics, countries train their teams with the best equipment, trainers, dieticians, kinesioligists, physicians, etc. that they can afford to buy. Do you think the United States says, "No, we can't have you train with the best stuff because you'll be competing against poorer countries that can't even get close to the training advantages we can give you"? No, money has been involved in competition for a very long time. Probably as far back as Medieval jousting.

 

As someone else stated, the time thing can equate to money and it's simple and true. It can be proven mathematically in many ways. For example a pay check is calculated(before deductions) by this formula: Money = Wage(Time), which is a just a version of y=kx, in which k is a contsant proportionality. Set k equal to 1 and you have y=1x or y=x or Money = Time. Therefore, logically one can say that this creates equity as opposed to the inequity in videogames that think it should only be based on the amount of time because time and money are equal to one another. Person A has more time but less money and Person B has more money but less time and you think that Person B should be punished because of some percieved ethics on how you think it should be?

[Astarica]

The best players in MMORPG I've played with for extended time are all either lawyers or independently wealthy, or at least guys who live a lifestyle as if they're super rich because I sure never see any of them having to work for over 5 years.

 

The guys who are rich absolutely has an advantage over the guys who are not. If you don't have to work for a living, you'll probably be better at the game than you're currently now. In fact this advantage is probably more pronounced in older games despite not even having a cash shop in existence because money buys you time, and time is power. I remember farming in EQ1 for the PoFire robe in a quest that took forever and one of the rich guys in my guild just dropped 5 million plat to buy it instead. You don't have to believe this guy is really a lawyer IRL, but he sure has money to spend and I do not which is why he can finish the same quest a lot faster than I did.

[Skolops]

I am not quoting the rest of your post as it was full of contradictions in it's own context. You made many lethal flaws in your arguments and ultimately, failed miserably to try and hide your ever obvious bias towards the current system.

 

So in other words, you can't actually respond to them. Noted.

 

On the other hand, your last pharagraph illustrates perfectly that, you are "ok" with the situation you described solely because you have much more time to play rather then money to spend on the game. Which brings me to my last question, are you ok with the game that all things equal person A can spend 12 hours to get gear X and person B can spend $20 to get gear X?

 

No, I am not. Gear of all things should be accessible only by playing the game.

 

You are also making quite an assumption and an unfair judgment there in saying I am OK with it because of my time. You have no idea how much or little time I have. I am neither a lawyer nor a college student, for one thing.

 

The reason I am OK with time being spent to earn bonuses in a game is because that time is spent playing the game, and so it makes perfect sense for it to produce benefit, just as it makes perfect sense that time spent studying a textbook may result in greater performance on an exam.

 

As this upcoming NFL season goes on, 4 teams are going to earn, through playing week in and week out - byes in the first round of the playoffs. They will have a HUGE advantage, but one which has been earned by playing the game, and so I'm completely fine with it.

 

If, on the other hand, Woody Johnson or Robert Kraft could spend some of their money to purchase a bye - even if the teams who had earned it still got one - I'd be completely appalled and reject it.

 

Now what difference does it make? Both teams would have spent their own resources, just different ones, right? So it should be ok, according to your argument.

[Skolops]

Again your argument is full of assumptions and fallacies. First your ability to make money shouldn't have any bearing on the ability to succeed at the game yet in the first 10 or so pages you stated that gear gives no advantage over skill because you can beat full WH geared opponents in only recruit gear based on skill alone. Therefor this can lead to the argument that buying mechanical advantages (ie. gear, buffs, etc.) can not replace skill, by axiomatic principles of logic, which is in turn perfected by practice over time (is. the true definition of kung fu). Thus the player who has more time to play and less time making money can in most cases win.

 

Next, I didn't try to argue that point, I did argue that point. My wording and argument were clear and in probably well understood by anyone with a good grasp of the English language. You could possibly say that I tried to convince you and did not succeed but there was no trying in the argument. I succeeded in arguing, not in convincing. Which really doesn't matter because from what I have seen so far you will use whatever argument you can to avoid ceeding that your arguments could possibly be wrong. Kind of like how you switched tactics to the musical instrument argument giving advantage from the previous argument that the instrument (mechanical advantages) does not give an advantage.

 

You're either deliberately being dishonest, or you have read my posts with so little care that I can no longer trust that you actually understand anything I have said. I very, very clearly said in at least 10 different posts in this thread (not to mention countless others) that gear is an advantage but that it is not so great of one that a recruit geared player can make no contribution to a game, not succeed in any way, or have no fun.

 

Lastly, on to the argument that everyone says that buying advantages to gain victory in competition is wrong. Take a look at the winning streak of the NY Yankees. The Yankees had more money and therefor had the ability to sign better players due to being able to offer higher paying contracts. Look at the Olympics, countries train their teams with the best equipment, trainers, dieticians, kinesioligists, physicians, etc. that they can afford to buy. Do you think the United States says, "No, we can't have you train with the best stuff because you'll be competing against poorer countries that can't even get close to the training advantages we can give you"? No, money has been involved in competition for a very long time. Probably as far back as Medieval jousting.

 

You defeat yourself, as the examples you give are those that have been criticized by the vast majority at every juncture. The New York Yankees in particular have been held up by everyone outside - and many inside - of New York as a reason why the Major League Baseball economic system is lacking in - get ready - competitive integrity. Similar things have been said about the Olympics.

 

As someone else stated, the time thing can equate to money and it's simple and true. It can be proven mathematically in many ways. For example a pay check is calculated(before deductions) by this formula: Money = Wage(Time), which is a just a version of y=kx, in which k is a contsant proportionality. Set k equal to 1 and you have y=1x or y=x or Money = Time. Therefore, logically one can say that this creates equity as opposed to the inequity in videogames that think it should only be based on the amount of time because time and money are equal to one another. Person A has more time but less money and Person B has more money but less time and you think that Person B should be punished because of some percieved ethics on how you think it should be?

 

Punished, no, but in a game of any kind, the ONLY thing which should play a factor is what the player does in the game. See my example re: the NFL playoffs in my previous post. What many people fail to consider, for example, about PvP in an MMO is that the game is the MMO, the game is not the PvP. The warzone or arena or battleground is a subset - a part - of the overall game, not a game in and of itself. Thus, what one is able to accomplish or do in the rest of the MMO very well should play an impact in a warzone, just like what an NFL team can do in the film room should play a role on Sunday or the success an athlete has in one phase of a tricathalon should impact the other phases.

 

If I do better than you at acquiring datacrons and exercising my crew skills, I SHOULD have an advantage over you in a warzone, because they are all part of the overall game.

[majikx]

Do you have proof of this? Moreover, it's really not the same thing. SWtOR already has these things, and they're all fine insofar as they effect PvE. However, BW has been trying to limit how much they can effect PvP, as with the adrenal nerf, for example.

 

Ultimately, though, these items have always been accessible with in-game cash, and unless the cash shop allows the exchange of money for credits, I see no validity to your claim. So far, the cash shop has been said to contain vanity and convenience items, not anything that could impact PvP.

 

this was your reply to a guy saying SWTOR cash shop was going to have buffs/stims for sell.

 

maybe i am reading it wrong but sounds like you would be ok if this was indeed true because the stims/buffs or what not are already accessible in game with game currency?

 

as it has been said this is no different than the GW2 shop as those buffs are bought with in game currency also.

 

sounds a bit like a double standard to me.

 

and before you start on the part you wrote about money being exchanged for credits. there is absolutely no difference between buying items with money or buying in game currency with money. if all items are available with said currency, buying the item directly just cuts out the middle step of real money to in game currency to items.

[Skolops]

 

and before you start on the part you wrote about money being exchanged for credits. there is absolutely no difference between buying items with money or buying in game currency with money. if all items are available with said currency, buying the item directly just cuts out the middle step of real money to in game currency to items.

 

 

I agree, which is why I hate the entire currency for cash exchange system. I think it has no place in an MMO.

[Astarica]

I agree, which is why I hate the entire currency for cash exchange system. I think it has no place in an MMO.

 

As long as there are desireable goods that can be traded people will use cash for it anyway. There's no difference between saying paying $200 for 2 million GW2 bucks and then trade it for uber sword, or just find the owner of the uber sword and offer him $200. The reason why currency exchange stuff exists is because when you bid $200 in EBay or whatever, the seller can simply take your money and run and you'll have to call EBay plus the game company for resolution and it costs a ton of time (which equals money to the company themselves) to deal with that. Despite companies would like to believe you've no rights, they're legally obligated to deal with stuff like that.

 

On the other hand if you traded 2 million GW2 bucks for the uber sword in game you can be pretty sure this trade ought to succeed, and if it failed for some reason it's easier to recover too since that's all within the game so they have a better shot at tracing it all back versus the case you paid $200 through EBay and never had your goods delivered.

 

The cash for currency stuff is really out of convenience, not an enabler. RMT always occurs anyway but if the game supports it, at least you don't have to deal with the guys complaining about how they traded for it illegally and never got their goods.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Astarica

[Skolops]

As long as there are desireable goods that can be traded people will use cash for it anyway. There's no difference between saying paying $200 for 2 million GW2 bucks and then trade it for uber sword, or just find the owner of the uber sword and offer him $200. The reason why currency exchange stuff exists is because when you bid $200 in EBay or whatever, the seller can simply take your money and run and you'll have to call EBay plus the game company for resolution and it costs a ton of time (which equals money to the company themselves) to deal with that. Despite companies would like to believe you've no rights, they're legally obligated to deal with stuff like that.

 

On the other hand if you traded 2 million GW2 bucks for the uber sword in game you can be pretty sure this trade ought to succeed, and if it failed for some reason it's easier to recover too since that's all within the game so they have a better shot at tracing it all back versus the case you paid $200 through EBay and never had your goods delivered.

 

The cash for currency stuff is really out of convenience, not an enabler. RMT always occurs anyway but if the game supports it, at least you don't have to deal with the guys complaining about how they traded for it illegally and never got their goods.

 

If they traded for it illegally and never got their goods, it serves them right. I certainly don't want to take something I think is a negative facet of MMOs and legitimize it to protect the rule-breakers. That's just silly. It would be like legalizing and regulating burglary to protect burglars who have gotten hurt while braking into people's houses.

[REDLION]

I've been in the Beta's and they don't have to DO anything. GW2 is an aweful game. GW2 is nothing but Lag on top of Lag, backed up by ****** graphics, and retarded combat system that plays like *********** ***. If it weren't F2P they'd have no players at all. Edited August 1, 2012 by REDLION

[Vedano]

I mean, it seems that Bioware is doing nothing atm to keep the PvP-Players here.

 

 

They made that perfectly clear when a large portion of the subs left when at the last minute they announced that ranked warzones would not be in patch 1.2. They very well knew that ahead of time so a lot of people felt lied to and what kind of company lies to it's consumer's and thinks there will be no backlash. They had obviously not learned from the mistakes that other MMO's have made.

 

The only thing I am disappointed about is that it took them 5 years to make....this. I have no faith in what they will create in the future based on their poor track record so far. I will play GW2 for a bit and then call it quits on MMO's all together. Gone are the days of EQ and vanilla wow where you felt like u were part of something. When you got a piece of gear you felt accomplished and you felt a certain connection to your character and the environment around you.

 

The bulk of consumers think they know what they want, easier this, faster that, give me these and I'll be happy, but the reality is, it's a very temporary and fleeting sense of happiness cause there's no sense of accomplishment. I feel no attachment to my character in these games, it's just a grind that anyone can do.

 

I remember grinding for my spear of fate in ever quest on my barbarian shaman, when I got it, i felt amazing. It took me a long time, but I did. And to those of you that would say, "but it takes too long, I dont have enough time, blah blah" when i played EQ I was in college, with a full time job during the week and a part time job on the weekends. I STILL found time to play, so if you are saying that you can't then you basically have a wife/gf that won't let you play and thats your problem or youre too lazy to actually put the time in, which is also your problem.

 

It is sad that there will never be a game like those again where you were actually proud of what you did and people saw it and recognized it and respected you for putting the time in. It gave the game depth that recent MMO's have lost to try to satisfy the whiners that dont want to work for anything and then the devs think thats what everyone wants. Give us something that takes team work, effort, and time invested, and not a few days or even a few weeks, more like a few months. Make it worth while and epic and traveling involved, not quick ports to and fro so that there's no sense of journey.

 

Sigh, I am just down about the state of MMO's and seeing what they have become and what they could have been.

 

Sincerely,

 

MMO Veteran, forgotten gamer

[coerCez]

So in other words, you can't actually respond to them. Noted.

 

 

 

No, I am not. Gear of all things should be accessible only by playing the game.

 

You are also making quite an assumption and an unfair judgment there in saying I am OK with it because of my time. You have no idea how much or little time I have. I am neither a lawyer nor a college student, for one thing.

 

The reason I am OK with time being spent to earn bonuses in a game is because that time is spent playing the game, and so it makes perfect sense for it to produce benefit, just as it makes perfect sense that time spent studying a textbook may result in greater performance on an exam.

 

As this upcoming NFL season goes on, 4 teams are going to earn, through playing week in and week out - byes in the first round of the playoffs. They will have a HUGE advantage, but one which has been earned by playing the game, and so I'm completely fine with it.

 

If, on the other hand, Woody Johnson or Robert Kraft could spend some of their money to purchase a bye - even if the teams who had earned it still got one - I'd be completely appalled and reject it.

 

Now what difference does it make? Both teams would have spent their own resources, just different ones, right? So it should be ok, according to your argument.

 

Your examples makes no sense whatsoever.

 

So according to you, NFL players should only be able to acquire gear (a.k.a shoulder pads, helmets, shoes, etc) by playing football matches and those equipment should not be able to be purchased by money because they didn't "earn" the gear by playing football.

 

Again, buying "gear" in an MMO to be able to compete in an equal playing field should be absolutely possible. I am not arguing for buying a Rank 1 Rated Warzone team with money.

[Skolops]

They made that perfectly clear when a large portion of the subs left when at the last minute they announced that ranked warzones would not be in patch 1.2. They very well knew that ahead of time so a lot of people felt lied to and what kind of company lies to it's consumer's and thinks there will be no backlash. They had obviously not learned from the mistakes that other MMO's have made.

 

The only thing I am disappointed about is that it took them 5 years to make....this. I have no faith in what they will create in the future based on their poor track record so far. I will play GW2 for a bit and then call it quits on MMO's all together. Gone are the days of EQ and vanilla wow where you felt like u were part of something. When you got a piece of gear you felt accomplished and you felt a certain connection to your character and the environment around you.

 

The bulk of consumers think they know what they want, easier this, faster that, give me these and I'll be happy, but the reality is, it's a very temporary and fleeting sense of happiness cause there's no sense of accomplishment. I feel no attachment to my character in these games, it's just a grind that anyone can do.

 

I remember grinding for my spear of fate in ever quest on my barbarian shaman, when I got it, i felt amazing. It took me a long time, but I did. And to those of you that would say, "but it takes too long, I dont have enough time, blah blah" when i played EQ I was in college, with a full time job during the week and a part time job on the weekends. I STILL found time to play, so if you are saying that you can't then you basically have a wife/gf that won't let you play and thats your problem or youre too lazy to actually put the time in, which is also your problem.

 

It is sad that there will never be a game like those again where you were actually proud of what you did and people saw it and recognized it and respected you for putting the time in. It gave the game depth that recent MMO's have lost to try to satisfy the whiners that dont want to work for anything and then the devs think thats what everyone wants. Give us something that takes team work, effort, and time invested, and not a few days or even a few weeks, more like a few months. Make it worth while and epic and traveling involved, not quick ports to and fro so that there's no sense of journey.

 

Sigh, I am just down about the state of MMO's and seeing what they have become and what they could have been.

 

Sincerely,

 

MMO Veteran, forgotten gamer

 

Hmmm, well, I never played those older games so I must assume it's somehow different in a game like TOR, but as I've been explaining in this thread, your reasoning is the very reasoning I will be really bummed out in GW2. That connection and sense of accomplishment just won't be there with my PvP character.. it will all be too easy, and so it will all feel fairly pointless or at least lacking in something important. Maybe those other games did it "better" than TOR, but at least when I've leveled a character through all 50 levels and worked for his WH gear, I feel like I've actually done something.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Skolops

[Skolops]

Your examples makes no sense whatsoever.

 

So according to you, NFL players should only be able to acquire gear (a.k.a shoulder pads, helmets, shoes, etc) by playing football matches and those equipment should not be able to be purchased by money because they didn't "earn" the gear by playing football.

 

Again, buying "gear" in an MMO to be able to compete in an equal playing field should be absolutely possible. I am not arguing for buying a Rank 1 Rated Warzone team with money.

 

I'm not making a direct analogy from gear to gear. I'm just talking about advantages.

 

My point is that, in any kind of sport, game, whatever, there are going to be certain advantaged one can have. I am fine with that so long as those advantages were earned through actually participating in the game and not bought or gained in some way outside of the game - and if you think about it in terms of sports or games you're familiar with apart from MMOs, we all feel that way.

 

An NFL team with a playoff bye has an advantage that has been earned by playing. An MMO player with T2 or T3 PvP gear has an advantage that has been earned through playing.

 

What I would not like - in either case - is if the advantage were simply purchased without the need to actually earn it in the game somehow.

 

So, for example, if you could buy influence with gold but there were NO sanctioned system for exchanging real world money for in game gold, I'd be totally ok with it. That gold will have been earned by playing the various aspects of the whole MMO game. Of course, the issue of internet gold shops does then come up, but that's a different issue: one of the impact made by violating the rules. It needs to be dealt with, but I don't believe the rules should be set up based on those who break them.

[coerCez]

I'm not making a direct analogy from gear to gear. I'm just talking about advantages.

 

Oh I see, so you are making things up as you go along. Noted.

 

My point is that, in any kind of sport, game, whatever, there are going to be certain advantaged one can have. I am fine with that so long as those advantages were earned through actually participating in the game and not bought or gained in some way outside of the game - and if you think about it in terms of sports or games you're familiar with apart from MMOs, we all feel that way.

 

You are wrong. Those advantages translate to certain skills a player might develop over time by playing, or having a natural advantage over other's by virtue of DNA and/or good genetics. Those advantages DO NOT translate into having better shoulder pads, shoes, helmet, a.k.a Gear. So, you can actually compare the two quite effectively as Gear in an MMO contributes to exact same fundementals as gear in sports.

 

An NFL team with a playoff bye has an advantage that has been earned by playing. An MMO player with T2 or T3 PvP gear has an advantage that has been earned through playing.

 

No you are wrong, again. An NFL team with a playoff bye has an advantage by displaying better skills and performing better then the rest in a playing field with EQUALLY gered opponents. An MMO player with T2 or T3 PvP gear has an advantage that has been earned through dedicating more time then the rest by playing

 

What I would not like - in either case - is if the advantage were simply purchased without the need to actually earn it in the game somehow.

 

There is no advantage that is purchased as a person can only purchase what is also available to other's and can be obtained by devoting time instead.

 

So, for example, if you could buy influence with gold but there were NO sanctioned system for exchanging real world money for in game gold, I'd be totally ok with it. That gold will have been earned by playing the various aspects of the whole MMO game. Of course, the issue of internet gold shops does then come up, but that's a different issue: one of the impact made by violating the rules. It needs to be dealt with, but I don't believe the rules should be set up based on those who break them

 

More blah blah blah... I apoligize in advance as I don't have the "time" and will to absolutely destroy you logic in every post you make from now on as I feel pretty comfortable that you are just making s*** up as you go along thus effectively making you a "troll"...

Edited August 1, 2012 by coerCez

[WraitheDarkbane]

You're either deliberately being dishonest, or you have read my posts with so little care that I can no longer trust that you actually understand anything I have said. I very, very clearly said in at least 10 different posts in this thread (not to mention countless others) that gear is an advantage but that it is not so great of one that a recruit geared player can make no contribution to a game, not succeed in any way, or have no fun.

Ok, I will conceed to you on that point. It gives an advantage of course but as my understanding you were saying that that advantage will never trump greater skill and to that I do agree to a point on.

 

 

 

You defeat yourself, as the examples you give are those that have been criticized by the vast majority at every juncture. The New York Yankees in particular have been held up by everyone outside - and many inside - of New York as a reason why the Major League Baseball economic system is lacking in - get ready - competitive integrity. Similar things have been said about the Olympics.

 

The vast majority being what? Non-yankees fans that are tired of seeing the yankees win? Ethics are a matter of perspective. In some countries racism is unethical, in some it isn't. In some periods of history racism wasn't unethical and in others it is. Ethics are creation of our own ideas of how things should be. My point is that no matter what people say, money has and most likely will play a part in sports competition. It most certainly will in other competitive areas like war, politics and commerce. People complain about sports in America but we certainly don't complain about technological superiority in war.

 

 

 

 

If I do better than you at acquiring datacrons and exercising my crew skills, I SHOULD have an advantage over you in a warzone, because they are all part of the overall game.

Again any kind of paying for advantages with real money via the game is an overall part of games. If it's done through the game and included with it will be part of the game.

 

Now, I have noticed that you feel that if someone buys with real money the same thing you got through grinding that it cheapens it for you and I am wondering how. Does the fact they bought it take away the work you did to earn it? Take for example cars or computers. Let's say you worked hard and saved your money and put together an excellent gaming rig or purchased your own car and some other guy just had his rich parents buy one for him, does that mean your accomplishment is cheapened or the one who had it given to him? In my perspective the fact you earned it via hard work and the other person got it because of it being given in fact cheapens his accomplishment. Not the other way around. In fact, I think it would then actually make your accomplishment greater than previous just by comparring it to the other so called accomplishment.

Edited August 1, 2012 by WraitheDarkbane

[Skolops]

Oh I see, so you are making things up as you go along. Noted.

 

 

 

You are wrong. Those advantages translate to certain skills a player might develop over time by playing, or having a natural advantage over other's by virtue of DNA and/or good genetics. Those advantages DO NOT translate into having better shoulder pads, shoes, helmet, a.k.a Gear. So, you can actually compare the two quite effectively as Gear in an MMO contributes to exact same fundementals as gear in sports.

 

 

 

No you are wrong, again. An NFL team with a playoff bye has an advantage by displaying better skills and performing better then the rest in a playing field with EQUALLY gered opponents. An MMO player with T2 or T3 PvP gear has an advantage that has been earned through dedicating more time then the rest by playing

 

 

 

There is no advantage that is purchased as a person can only purchase what is also available to other's and can be obtained by devoting time instead.

 

 

 

More blah blah blah... I apoligize in advance as I don't have the "time" and will to absolutely destroy you logic in every post you make from now on as I feel pretty comfortable that you are just making s*** up as you go along thus effectively making you a "troll"...

 

Careful; I was warned for calling someone a troll. It's apparently explicitly against forum rules.

 

As for your response, you're really just not understanding. All I am concerned with here is advantages - of whatever kind they may be. Yes, some advantages are natural and inherent and nothing can be done about that. Some people are faster and have better hands than others and so they'll make better football players. Some people genetically have an aptitude for a certain type of thinking and so may be better at Chess than others. Some people have better hand/eye coordination or reaction time or what have you and may be better at MMO PvPs than others - that's all fine and there's nothing we can do about it.

 

Then there are advantages which are gained by one's performance in a competition. A football team earns a bye because they won the most games. A hockey team paid more attention in the film room and is better able to play against its opponent's tactics. A TOR player plays better in his WZs and so gets his gear faster and has that advantage. It's all fine, whether it comes down to a bye or better gear or a better understanding or whatever the case may be - it's a matter of what they did and how well they did it in the actual game (practice being as much a part of a sports game as, say, crafting is to an MMO PvPer)..

 

Finally, there are advantages earned through means that have nothing to do with the game at all. A baseball player takes steroids. An MMO player spends money to gain the advantage he could have gained through playing. The theoretical example of an NFL team paying for a bye. All of the advantages gained through these "other" means could have been earned through play: the baseball player through more time in the weight room, the Football team and the MMO player by playing better, etc. However, instead they were taken ultimately for "free" without needing to put the resources (time, money, or whatever) into the actual game.

[Skolops]

The vast majority being what? Non-yankees fans that are tired of seeing the yankees win? Ethics are a matter of perspective. In some countries racism is unethical, in some it isn't. In some periods of history racism wasn't unethical and in others it is. Ethics are creation of our own ideas of how things should be. My point is that no matter what people say, money has and most likely will play a part in sports competition. It most certainly will in other competitive areas like war, politics and commerce. People complain about sports in America but we certainly don't complain about technological superiority in war.

 

Unfortunately this is not the place for it, but this is a philosophical issue about which I would immeasurably disagree with you. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the philosophy you espouse here is leading to the very destruction of the human race. That said, it's a disagreement about a "side" issue which we really shouldn't try to hash out here.

 

Again any kind of paying for advantages with real money via the game is an overall part of games. If it's done through the game and included with it will be part of the game.

 

I think that's clear. Perhaps the confusion is in that you are saying it's a part of the game and you perceive me as saying it isn't, whereas in truth what I am objecting to is whether it should be a part of the game.

 

Now, I have noticed that you feel that if someone buys with real money the same thing you got through grinding that it cheapens it for you and I am wondering how. Does the fact they bought it take away the work you did to earn it? Take for example cars or computers. Let's say you worked hard and saved your money and put together an excellent gaming rig or purchased your own car and some other guy just had his rich parents buy one for him, does that mean your accomplishment is cheapened or the one who had it given to him? In my perspective the fact you earned it via hard work and the other person got it because of it being given in fact cheapens his accomplishment. Not the other way around. In fact, I think it would then actually make your accomplishment greater than previous just by comparring it to the other so called accomplishment.

 

You're correct in one sense, but not in another. If one baseball team is entirely clean and loses in the World Series to a team of known steroid and other PED users, then is the accomplishment of that winning team cheapened? Of course! Does or ought that somehow lessen the injustice done to the losing team? Certainly not.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Skolops

[coerCez]

Careful; I was warned for calling someone a troll. It's apparently explicitly against forum rules.

 

As for your response, you're really just not understanding. All I am concerned with here is advantages - of whatever kind they may be. Yes, some advantages are natural and inherent and nothing can be done about that. Some people are faster and have better hands than others and so they'll make better football players. Some people genetically have an aptitude for a certain type of thinking and so may be better at Chess than others. Some people have better hand/eye coordination or reaction time or what have you and may be better at MMO PvPs than others - that's all fine and there's nothing we can do about it.

 

Then there are advantages which are gained by one's performance in a competition. A football team earns a bye because they won the most games. A hockey team paid more attention in the film room and is better able to play against its opponent's tactics. A TOR player plays better in his WZs and so gets his gear faster and has that advantage. It's all fine, whether it comes down to a bye or better gear or a better understanding or whatever the case may be - it's a matter of what they did and how well they did it in the actual game (practice being as much a part of a sports game as, say, crafting is to an MMO PvPer)..

 

Finally, there are advantages earned through means that have nothing to do with the game at all. A baseball player takes steroids. An MMO player spends money to gain the advantage he could have gained through playing. The theoretical example of an NFL team paying for a bye. All of the advantages gained through these "other" means could have been earned through play: the baseball player through more time in the weight room, the Football team and the MMO player by playing better, etc. However, instead they were taken ultimately for "free" without needing to put the resources (time, money, or whatever) into the actual game.

 

I believe you really need to drop the sad attempt to use real life sports analogies to support your case, because simply put, it is working against you. For example, you say that;

 

Finally, there are advantages earned through means that have nothing to do with the game at all

 

So like, buying better shoulder pads, shoes, helmets, etc for your team? Or buying state of the art hockey equipment with money? Or, like, I don't know, maybe buying a better baseball bat, helmet, cuffs, etc? Again, your argument is very weak as real life sports analogies are working very much against you.

 

It is really a sad attempt to state your opinion which pretty much goes something like this " I played since release and did my grind to have as much advantage as possible be it having the best PvP gear, all the datacrons, etc. I don't believe someone who purchased the game yesterday should be able to accomplish all what I accomplished by "buying" this stuff with money because they have to ear it by spendig as much time as I had"

 

To me personally, that line of thinking is non sense because it is hypocritical due to the fact that it is ok for you to have all this advantage simply because you have over abundance of a resource called "time" yet it shouldn't be possible for people who have over abundance of another type of resource called "money" to acquire things to be at the same playing field as you are. So in reality, you just like to have an unfair advantage over others because, well, you like taking advantage of this unfair advantage...

Edited August 1, 2012 by coerCez

[Astarica]

If they traded for it illegally and never got their goods, it serves them right. I certainly don't want to take something I think is a negative facet of MMOs and legitimize it to protect the rule-breakers. That's just silly. It would be like legalizing and regulating burglary to protect burglars who have gotten hurt while braking into people's houses.

 

Your personal opinion has no bearing on this. The problem is whoever had this happened will call up the game company + EBay + whatever and threaten to sue them. Despite a lot of people thinking EULA signs away your first born and all your rights, usually the game company will attempt to resolve this (and they've actually lost in court in some countries when they tried to ignore the customers). The biggest cost for a MMORPG developer is the human capital, since those guys answering your calls still has to be paid even if it's minimum wage. If you yelled at some minimum wage guy for 2 hours demeanding your $200 sword fund that's 2 hours X minimum wage lost to the game comapny since that guy could be used to solve some other issues. Now multiply by all the guys who do RMT and that can quickly go way up.

 

It's the same way why WoW wants you to buy an authenticator because while they shouldn't be responsible for your account, what invariably happens is when your account gets hacked you call them and blame it on Blizzard and yell at their guys for 2 hours, and that's 2 hours their CR has to spend dealing with you instead of something else. Although losing your account because you downloaded some malware is literally not their fault, it'll still cost them money because they'd be expected to at least talk to you when it happens and time is money to them as well. So just as authenticators reduces cost by eliminating calls related to account thefts, in game currency eliminates calls related to dispute over RMT, because if the game allows it at least the chance of fraud is greatly reduced.

[Skolops]

I believe you really need to drop the sad attempt to use real life sports analogies to support your case, because simply put, it is working against you. For example, you say that;

 

 

 

So like, buying better shoulder pads, shoes, helmets, etc for your team? Or buying state of the art hockey equipment with money? Or, like, I don't know, maybe buying a better baseball bat, helmet, cuffs, etc? Again, your argument is very weak as real life sports analogies are working very much against you.

 

It is really a sad attempt to state your opinion which pretty much goes something like this " I played since release and did my grind to have as much advantage as possible be it having the best PvP gear, all the datacrons, etc. I don't believe someone who purchased the game yesterday should be able to accomplish all what I accomplished by "buying" this stuff with money because they have to ear it by spendig as much time as I had"

 

To me personally, that line of thinking is non sense because it is hypocritical due to the fact that it is ok for you to have all this advantage simply because you have over abundance of a resource called "time" yet it shouldn't be possible for people who have over abundance of another type of resource called "money" to acquire things to be at the same playing field as you are. So in reality, you just like to have an unfair advantage over others because, well, you like taking advantage of this unfair advantage...

 

I'll say it again, you have no idea what I have for time or do not have, and it's ultimately an ad hominem argument you're making anyways rather than addressing my points.

 

I will say only this in response to your ad hominem: look at my signature, and see all of my characters. See how many of them are below level 50. Now consider that my Shadow is the closest to fully geared with 10 WH pieces and 13 augments. Second is my Gunslinger, with BM and a few WH pieces. My Guardian is BM but I am converting her to a pure tank, so the gear is actually a mish-mash and not quite good right now. My Sorceror is in Recruit. My Assassin is similarly geared to my Shadow. All of the rest are not even 50, and yet I intend fully to PvP with them a lot.

 

I am most certainly not somehow hoping to maintain a gear advantage. If anything, if the game were to adopt the GW2 bolster system tomorrow it would greatly benefit me. I prefer to gear "grind" for the many reasons I have explained in my posts but which you seem to have either missed entirely or chosen to ignore.

 

Now, moving on: you are really stuck on this whole "gear" thing. The gear that an NFL team has is not an advantage, because it is the same gear that every other NFL team has. The gear an NFL team has is a lot closer to base level 50 stats in TOR than it is to the gear in TOR. The gear in TOR is an advantage which is gained by performing well over the course of your games, much like a bye in football is earned by performing well in games.

 

You're so caught up about gear that you can't look past it to see the real analogy here, which really has NOTHING to do with gear.

 

Look, take two naked characters wearing no gear whatsoever. Might one have an advantage over another? Of course. One might have all of his cooldowns and the other none. One might have found all of the datacrons, and the other none. One might be level 45 and the other level 23. Now all of these advantages are entirely unrelated to gear. They are, nonetheless, advantages, and they were all gained by one person's in game activities over the other's. One may have wisely saved his cooldowns - or even just been lucky enough not to have just come out of a fight. One may have spent time looking for Datacrons or leveling while the other didn't. The point is that these advantages came from PLAYING, not from money.

 

Now, if you could, say, pay BW $25 to make your toon auto-leveled to 50, that would be an advantage gained outside of playing. If you could pay $10 to have all the datacrons unlocked it would again be an edge gained outside of playing, and its this kind of thing I have a problem with. I don't care if this means you purchased stims with real money instead of credits, or if you bought the datacrons, or bought you WH gear with US dollars, or bought Influence to buff your guild in WvW. This is what I have a problem with.