Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[Katsuragisama]

The Asura race is absolutely awesome, their designers should win an award for the effort they put into those little guys. I'll be playing GW2 for the open world PvP personally, SWTOR has literally nothing to offer me anymore and isn't worth the sub, in my opinion.

 

Someone else understands you dont have to throw money at a company hoping Soon™ they make it better. Or they add back in a feature that once existed, but was so poorly put into place with a crappy engine that they pretty much erased it's existence. This is why the subscription model is becoming outdated, as more and more people are coming to realize this.

 

Edit to add: On the Asura, I dont know if I'll ever play one myself. Though I have seen some screenshots of them looking really evil looking. Then again, anything is better than this when it comes to races. They're all just humans that are recolored with Twileks being somewhat of an exception.[1]

 

[1] A picture is worth a thousand words. http://i.imgur.com/Bh7dd.jpg

Edited July 30, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[Skolops]

The P2W is in that, all that you can get from karma, you can get with real money. Yes, you can get it in game for free, too, but over time and in an amount limited by time. Well... kinddof. More on that in a moment. Now it does only work in WvW, so it doesnt affect the structured PvP. Hoeever its still somrthing. Basically, imagine if you could have spent money to get the Ilum buff, or to get an expertise buff fornyour guild while fighting in Illum. Sure, others could get these through in game effort, time, and wwrzone grinds for gear. but those with real money could just get this with no work, instantly, on demand, without any pushback from competition, and in unlimited quantities not bound by the constraints ot the game or of time.

 

And the truth is, I don't care if it cost a million dollars a minute for a 0.01% buff - the fact that its even possible is, to me, a black mark on the integrity of the PvP experience.

 

Another thing is that its not just money that will buy these buffs, but zergging. Every server has one of those guilds - you know the kind - they zerge recruit in general chat, take anyone, have zillions of members and are TERRIBLE at PvP. The karma system means that inGW2 these guilds will be GOOD at WvW - ive already seen it in at least one youtube video - and I think this is terrible.

[ISTrick]

No doubt it will have hardcore PvPers. But i highly doubt the game has sustainability in that regard. It currently lacks many of the systems hardcore PvPers want, ie arena, rating/ranking systems. Unless they add some of these things in soon after launch. The tournament system is nice but it lacks the depth of ranking or rating system.

At this point the game is over hyped for no reason other than the fact fanboys love to hype up every new MMO release and then quit shortly after.

 

It is pretty foolish for anyone to say with certainty that it is the best MMO where PVP is concerned or otherwise that they will be playing the game in the long term. No one has played the game consistently enough and long enough to make that determination. You dont know how much you like a game until you know how it stands up to repeated play. Every new game is fun for a while simply because its new and exciting. Time and time again the same people have hyped up a new MMO as the greatest thing and made claims of quitting their current MMO and turned around a month later saying the game is a dissapointment. Point being its far too early to tell.

 

Until you have played GW2 for 6months+ and tell me that its still the best MMO and its PvP is the best, you're just a thoughless fanboy making a poorly reasoned and foolish claim.

 

All I know is the sPvP and wPvP in Guild Wars 2 is unbelievably fun - I plan on being a fanboy for both GW2 and SWTOR going forward.

 

GW2 for the WvWvW and structured PvP - The strategy/build-on-the-fly/responsiveness is so good!

SWTOR for the PVE and warzones (which I still really enjoy), oh, and it's STAR WARS.

 

Might take a small sub break once GW2 launches this month, then come back to level a new character and get back into it once HK/Makeb et al drops. Good times all round. :cool:

[Astarica]

I'm not willing to put ArenaNet in the 'making less money is better than no money' camp yet. So far only Trion (RIFT) has earned this distinciton, even though I don't even play RIFT but I can appreciate that they're not trying to rip you off in the maximal way possible because it actually makes business sense to give you a good deal. That said paying $15/month is no guaranteed that you'll get a good game, but since people like to get ripped off that's why we don't even see any alternative pricing (why can't MMORPG cost $5/month and still deliver good content?)

 

That said there has been examples of game developers grossly underestimating how much 'free' stuff they're giving away. Such opportunities are likely only available early in a game's life since if the game turns out to be successful even the dumbest guys eventually figured out they're not making as much money as they first thought and will remedy that. That is, if GW2 turns out to be awesome but people have no need for the cash shop, you can bet the game will be reworked to ensure you will need the cash shop eventually.

[Katsuragisama]

The P2W is in that, all that you can get from karma, you can get with real money. Yes, you can get it in game for free, too, but over time and in an amount limited by time. Well... kinddof. More on that in a moment. Now it does only work in WvW, so it doesnt affect the structured PvP. Hoeever its still somrthing. Basically, imagine if you could have spent money to get the Ilum buff, or to get an expertise buff fornyour guild while fighting in Illum. Sure, others could get these through in game effort, time, and wwrzone grinds for gear. but those with real money could just get this with no work, instantly, on demand, without any pushback from competition, and in unlimited quantities not bound by the constraints ot the game or of time.

 

And the truth is, I don't care if it cost a million dollars a minute for a 0.01% buff - the fact that its even possible is, to me, a black mark on the integrity of the PvP experience.

 

Another thing is that its not just money that will buy these buffs, but zergging. Every server has one of those guilds - you know the kind - they zerge recruit in general chat, take anyone, have zillions of members and are TERRIBLE at PvP. The karma system means that inGW2 these guilds will be GOOD at WvW - ive already seen it in at least one youtube video - and I think this is terrible.

 

I was kind of wondering if you could give me a specific item name itself, so I could Google it. I understand your explanation, so thanks for that atleast. Only thing is, Karma is for PvE shinies, where as you use Glory for PvP shinies. You mentioned a buff like the Ilum buff, but on demand. However there is only a Karma boost, not a Glory (PvP currency boost). So I dont think any WvWvW stuff, would be under the PvE section, and you -cant- get a Glory boost through the cash shop. And after looking through some of the Karma Vendors, I dont see anything even remotely related to WvWvW/PvP. Kind of why I wondered if you could point out a specific item by name if you knew it.

 

I'll probably be more interested in sPvP anyways, as that means I would have more 1 vs 1 experience, rather than ZERG!!! with no actual individual skill involved. And yes, I can definitely think of some of those guilds like you said. The bads, who just zerg everything without a thought. But in the end, if I felt they will over-zerg us, I combat stealth off, ninja/kill the person guarding the node, and cap it for my team before we lose our turret either way. Thus leaving us still 2/3 turrets capped, or at sometimes even triple capped.

 

They can zerg all they want and leave little defense for their other node if they want. But I think you and I both know, bad tactics are bad. Just like bad, zerging guilds are bad.

 

All I know is the sPvP and wPvP in Guild Wars 2 is unbelievably fun - I plan on being a fanboy for both GW2 and SWTOR going forward.

 

Same. I know most of my post are defending GW2, I just hate what I perceive is misinformation, unless I'm proven wrong. To which I'll politely apologize and move on. That said, I also expect, like all games, I will get bored of them eventually. And I want TOR to be a success, as it was the first game to keep my interest long enough to actually hit level cap. So I'd like for it to still be around if/when I do get bored with GW2.

 

Edit to add:

 

That is, if GW2 turns out to be awesome but people have no need for the cash shop, you can bet the game will be reworked to ensure you will need the cash shop eventually.

 

Kind of like how Diablo III basically made you use the RMT Auction House to get better gear to progress? Yeah, I read up on that. However, given that nothing in the cash shop for GW1 looks P2W to me, and they still made enough money to make a sequel, I'm not too worried. If GW2 turns out P2W at any point in time, I will drop that game faster than I kill healers here.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[fungihoujo]

Bads think it favors certain classes. Good players do just fine with their classes, whatever they are. I remember how bad sorc healing was supposed to be after 1.2, yet the amazing Sorc healer on my server who was virtually unkillable was still virtually unkillable after, and his team didn't start dropping like flies either.

 

There you go like a broken record- if you have an opinion that differs from mine you must be bad, if you ever think there is any imbalance in a game you must be bad. It must be so easy to go through life thinking that there's never anything that isn't equal, and anyone who ever goes against the will of BW's perfect balancing act must be a terrible player- chances are if his team is never being beaten that is more because of little to no team competition on servers- being impressed that a premade is able to smash pugs on a regular basis means nothing.

 

I have a 50 PT, a 50 mara, and a 50 sorc. The damage and survivability on the PT and mara MASSIVELY outrank that as a DPS sorc in any spec, and you actually get to spend most of the combat on those classes killing someone- while for a sorc to be effective you have to either spend the whole time kiting- which means it's going to take five times longer to get a kill- or you have to rely on someone else- which is fine if PT and mara also had to do that.

 

Yet, I am rarely ever outdone by another sorc when I am on a sorc myself- to put it simply, there are only a handful of individual PTs, marauders and sorcs I've seen on both my servers who play the classes better than I do- and it's quite clear that the marauder, while challenging to play due to the number of abilities is far superior than any class, and the PT is relatively easy to play and puts out enough damage in a short period of time to pretty much negate any chance for someone to counter- and make even a slight mess up a death sentence.

 

You seem to be conceding my point: gear grinding isn't a problem, because those players with skill don't really need it to compete. Those skilled, good players don't really need the top of the line, best gear to succeed, and can just hop into PvP and do well. So why all the hype about GW2's bolstering, then? Which brings me too a later point...

 

Good players versus good players- the one with more gear wins. Bad players versus bad players, the one with more gear wins. The only point where there is actual competition is when everyone has the same gear, or when a terrible player with good gear is playing a great player with bad gear. Simply put- GW2 gives everyone equal gear, so good players will always be on a competitive level with good players regardless of if they play one hour or twelve hours a day.

 

Now, for someone who enjoys grinding 300 hours while being vastly inferior to other players due to gear that wouldn't be appealing- but for everyone who just wants to go play and enjoy some competition it's pretty obvious which one is going to be more appealing.

 

Nonsense. I've said consistently that I like it. Just because some have compared it to suffering, doesn't mean all do or have. I like playing a whole bunch of warzones and getting a shiny new piece of gear at the end. It adds a goal, a carrot on a stick - something that has been overwhelmingly evidenced to be important in this kind of game, and something which will be lacking in GW2 and is going to lead to low retention rates in GW2. People will PvP for a bit, get bored of just playing the maps for the sake of playing them, and move on to some other fresher game.

 

You don't sound very convincing- carrot on a stick, overwhelmingly evidenced to be important, retention rates? You're still not talking about fun, you're talking about dev tactics that artificially prolong the life of the game by making them to repetitive content they may not enjoy in order to get something.

 

And your view on pvp is the exact type of view that is the cancer of pvp in mmos. People aren't playing CoD, or League of Legends, or Starcraft for thousands of hours- on par with how long we play an mmo- because there's a grind, in fact SC has no grind, League you can easily have the runes and champs you want by the time you hit 30, and CoD's grind is fairly minimal and people play long past the point where they have everything.

 

League of Legends, for the longest time, had only a single map- it didn't change, the goals didn't change- and even now with 3 maps, most players play only summoner's rift- where's your explanation for that? Same map, no grind- yet it's one of the most popular pvp games in the world right now.

 

Answer? Because the game itself is made to be fun- people like playing it over and over and over. Now, will GW2 have that? Who knows, I'm definitely not saying GW2 is going to have that aspect- only that they are aiming for it, and it's a successful way to make competitive pvp. If this one single WZ that GW2 has is very enjoyable- people will keep playing it whether there's advancing gear or not, and at the least it will give players who hate having to repeatedly spend thousands of hours grinding gear to be competitive something where they can just jump in.

 

 

 

 

 

EVERY GW2 map is exactly the same. Sure, the layouts are slightly different and they look different, but they're exactly the same. Curently, SWtOR has 4 entirely different mechanics:

 

1) Move from the starting point to the ending point faster than your opponent

 

2) Control any number of 3 binary points for a sufficient time to outscore your opponent

 

3) Control at least 2 of 3 analog points for more time than your opponent

 

4) Score a goal as in traditional sports

 

GW2 has a single mechanic: number 2. People are already complaining about it, and guess what? It's exceedingly unlikely to change as the developers have said they elected to have only one mechanic because it was the best way to balance the classes for PvP. Yes, that's right - as they designed the classes, the maps were designed alongside as part of the balancing process, so there is absolutely no way they're adding any new PvP for a very long time - especially considering that most of what I have read says the game isn't even close to balanced as is.

 

Ironic that you'll get on the case of people who post asking for nerfs or buffs that they're ignorant- yet you're all too happy to say another game is unbalanced based on what you have read.

 

Regardless- SWTOR has 4 WZ, 3 of which are very similar, and 2 of which are played the same way- Alderaan and VS are turtlefests by their very design, which most people have always hated- going into a match and knowing it will be a turtle from the start, every time- and knowing you can't not play those WZ because you get zero choice....

 

People will enjoy one pvp zone that is fun over 1 that is fun but no option to choose only it among 4, or none out of 4. Ultimately- it will come down to whether people like the one map in GW2 or not...

 

But that's not all- GW2 also has world pvp support, giving an entirely different area for people to pvp that SWTOR does not have.

 

Are you quite certain about this, as virtually everyone I know is of the understanding that the party members' rankings are taken into consideration when matchmaking.

 

Yet top ranked teams are still squashing random pugs made in the general channel on a regular basis.

 

Again, bads think there are hurge balance problems. The majority of people who are any good either really doesn't or thinks they're tiny. Heck, in at least 80% of balance posts, the people complaining demonstrate a

misunderstanding of very basic class or game mechanics.

 

Yes yes, we've all heard it- that the only good players are all playing marauders and PTs and that's why they all think the game is balanced and all sorcs and mercs think it isn't- the only logical explanation. The same could be said of the people who say the game is balanced- that 80% of the posts by people saying the game is balanced demonstrate no understanding of the game.

 

Why not instead pay attention to the players who are explaining clearly where the imbalances are, or even look at the facts- wherein marauders and PTs vastly outnumber all other DPS in high end ranked. Most people would realize when one class is showing up five times more often than another there's a reason for it.

 

Arenanet has already nerfed the crap out of some of the classes in GW2 to the point that some are considering them unplayable for structured PvP. Don't kld yourself - you're not getting anything in GW2 you don't get in any other MMO, including huge, class breaking nerf bats.

 

Again, you being ignorant after saying you have a problem with ignorant players- grats on what you have read though. And it seems you are also now saying that this game has huge class breaking nerfs, after defending the balance so heavily- so which is it? GW2 we've seen big changes in each patch so far, many of which have indeed been heavy handed- but compare to SWTOR, where we had game breaking nerfs three months ago which have not had anything done to mitigate them, despite another big content patch coming out.

 

And even if you were right and there were some classes that were so nerfed in all aspects that they were useless in pvp now- when that happened in SWTOR, people were given a 500 hour+ task of having to reroll, regear, etc... to get a max level character with full gear of another class, and many did not like that- hence the loss of 400k subs right after 1.2. Not everyone's willing to play another class, but even those that are might not be willing to spend months to catch up.

 

In GW2 if your class gets nerfed- you are all of 5 minutes away from playing that class you now think is the best class in the game.

 

It also makes it far more apparent which classes are OP and which are not- in SWTOR, there's still good players playing those nerfed classes because they don't have the time to reroll- but given the option many would have picked up a better class when the nerfs came. In GW2, if you see everyone rerolling one class- and sticking with it, there's no excuse of 'well, the class isn't good yet because I don't have the gear'- you either find out right away that the class is indeed as OP as people have said, or, that it isn't. Those who rerolled marauders had to grind out 50 and WH gear before seeing if the class was indeed as good as people said- which many players have not- I'm willing to bet most players who are saying a mara isn't OP and a sorc is still fine do not have a WH geared sorc and mara- do you? No? Didn't think so.

 

I don't care about world PvP, and frankly I don't think most truly competitive PvPers do, either, except as an added bonus, something fun to do for a break. As much as is put into it in GW2, It's not considered serious - even in the developer's terms. They themselves say it's not meant to be competitive per se, it's not meant to be balanced, etc. etc.

 

World pvp isn't where the competitive aspect is- most competitive games are pretty controlled- think about hockey, chess, DotA style games, pretty much all sports- it's the exact same arena of battle, with no changes, every time for a reason.

 

World pvp is more about community, a pastime, and to appeal to those who want something else to do in pvp- you're competing not for yourself but for your entire server. However- it is still there, and it still has backbone to it- and not everyone is in the game purely for a competition- having options for competitive and those who just want to play around gives variety that SWTOR lacks.

 

I think in the end you're going to be quite disillusioned by this game - whether you like TOR, think it's awful, or not. I myself will play it a little bit both to try something new out and because I like the setting, but I doubt very highly I'll get my desire for competitive PvP satisfied through it, and I doubt even moreso that it will still be considered a haven for hardcore PvPers after a few months in.

 

That'll depend of course on the game itself- we can only really compare the ideas and backbone of GW2 to the actual game of SWTOR. SWTOR can be fully judged though- and it is not a game built for casuals anymore, and it is not a competitive pvp game, and it is not a balanced game. In theory GW2 will have those three things- but as with all mmos until launch and the few months after you cannot know exactly how it will turn out. At the least- GW2 has brighter potential than what SWTOR actually is.

 

If you don't think the PvP in the game is going to be lacking in fun purely from the sheer number of absolutely terrible players you'll have to put up with, you're fooling yourself. Apart from anything else, that will kill the PvP even if nothing else does.

 

All games have terrible pvpers- yet I've had a lot of fun in many games- including SWTOR pre-1.2. SWTOR didn't slowly grow boring to me- it suddenly hit a brick wall with a patch that had very obvious changes that were disliked- and they were changes anyone with sense would have seen as a huge problem in pvp- no more 1.5 second DI procs, we told them would lead to the class being easy to chain interrupt- and we were right. Large reduction in healing bonus from expertise and we told them healing was going to scale considerably slower than damage does- and we were right. Removal of specs which adequately use chain lightning and death field, and we told them the class wasn't going to have the burst to compete with any other class in dps- and of course we were right (and anyone who says burst isn't far more important in pvp than gradual damage does not know what they are talking about.).

 

If I were never able to enjoy something because there were bad players- then there wouldn't be a single game on the planet I could enjoy. There will be goods and bads in pug pvp- that's part of the game, but that's what you get into. SWTOR though hasn't appealed to the good players though- I can live with a game that only rewards good players and only good players do well in far above one where time is the only factor that matters- and ultimately, there's no gear excuse in GW2, and there's no class balance excuse- as you can roll up that 'OP' class in all of 5 minutes if they're so amazing- you have only one thing- your own skill.

 

SWTOR you instead have broken match making, gear which between recruit and WH you're talking 50% more health and similar damage and stat bonuses- and even BM to WH you're talking 10+% bonuses in most areas, and poor balance wherein you need to spend weeks grinding away if you want to play that OP class instead.

[Astarica]

Kind of like how Diablo III basically made you use the RMT Auction House to get better gear to progress? Yeah, I read up on that. However, given that nothing in the cash shop for GW1 looks P2W to me, and they still made enough money to make a sequel, I'm not too worried. If GW2 turns out P2W at any point in time, I will drop that game faster than I kill healers here.

 

Well D3 was designed from the ground up to take advantage of RMAH, so there's no sudden shift in philsophy halfway.

 

I mean it's not like such changes happen overnight. If GW2 turns out to be super awesome and you never have to touch the cash drop, it's not going to suddenly change into a game like LOTRO where the basic essentials of a MMORPG is now in a cash shop. So you can certainly be ahead of the game for a while. There's also the possibility that maybe ArenaNet is one of the newer guys who really gets that making less money is better than making no money, though very few guys get that so I'm skeptical of that for now.

 

In the long run I think it's the guys who get that making less money while providing more content is better than trying to rob your customers blind. WoW is a ripoff at $15/month and so is every other MMORPG. It may have worked when WoW absolutely controlled the market but even WoW seems to be falling apart now. RIFT pretty much established a new standard of the kind of content you should expect $15/month. You can argue the content isn't good or the game isn't for you, but there's no question that RIFT attempts to deliver a lot for your $15/month, compared to every other MMMORPG which is like "keep sending your $15/month, we might pretend to fix it 5 months later, or not".

[Necrosov]

I read this entire thing. You guys should take whatever Skolops says with a grain of salt. I don't know where he gets his info from but it's clearly not from actual in-game experience ( regarding GW2 ). Edited July 30, 2012 by Necrosov

[Astarica]

I read this entire thing. You guys should take whatever Skolops says with a grain of salt. I don't know where he gets his info from but it's clearly not from actual in-game experience ( regarding GW2 ).

 

Given the last 10 or so coming of the MMO Jesus never occurred it's not unreasonable to be skeptical.

 

Though in games without monthly subs you at least start out ahead. That is if you understand how F2P works you can usually play for a bit and quit before things get really bad, while in a sub game you're usually startnig out behind even with significant knowledge of the genre, because you invariably start out in a game that's not quite done that promises to fix it for your $15/month and you can't know if your $15/month will actually do anything until at least a few months.

[Katsuragisama]

Well D3 was designed from the ground up to take advantage of RMAH, so there's no sudden shift in philsophy halfway.

 

I mean it's not like such changes happen overnight. If GW2 turns out to be super awesome and you never have to touch the cash drop, it's not going to suddenly change into a game like LOTRO where the basic essentials of a MMORPG is now in a cash shop. So you can certainly be ahead of the game for a while. There's also the possibility that maybe ArenaNet is one of the newer guys who really gets that making less money is better than making no money, though very few guys get that so I'm skeptical of that for now.

 

True true. Though ArenaNet has been around since '05, so I wouldnt say they're new to the scene. I just hope they dont pull a Square Enix. Final Fantasy XI was a very nice game. But when Square Enix made Final Fantasy XIV, they took everything they learned from FFXI, threw it out the window, and failed with FFXIV.

 

In the long run I think it's the guys who get that making less money while providing more content is better than trying to rob your customers blind. WoW is a ripoff at $15/month and so is every other MMORPG. It may have worked when WoW absolutely controlled the market but even WoW seems to be falling apart now. RIFT pretty much established a new standard of the kind of content you should expect $15/month. You can argue the content isn't good or the game isn't for you, but there's no question that RIFT attempts to deliver a lot for your $15/month, compared to every other MMMORPG which is like "keep sending your $15/month, we might pretend to fix it 5 months later, or not".

 

Yes, going around alot of MMO forums recently, I keep hearing about how Trion is constantly pushing out new content for Rift. While I havent played that game since it first came out (quest grind types have to capture my attention some how, for SWTOR the cutscenes and story kept me going), but mayhaps I'll try it out again later down the road.

 

I read this entire thing. You guys should take whatever Skolops says with a grain of salt. I don't know where he gets his info from but it's clearly not from actual in-game experience ( regarding GW2 ).

 

I do, as thats why I provide sources to most of what I say. I hate misinformation. I'll watch gameplay videos and Google the game till I'm blue in the face. I've tried many MMO's to find out how stupid I was at launch date. FFXIV quickly taught me a lesson, very quickly. Not going to just buy into hype, I'll be cautiously curious.

 

In addition:

 

Given the last 10 or so coming of the MMO Jesus never occurred it's not unreasonable to be skeptical.

 

Though in games without monthly subs you at least start out ahead. That is if you understand how F2P works you can usually play for a bit and quit before things get really bad, while in a sub game you're usually startnig out behind even with significant knowledge of the genre, because you invariably start out in a game that's not quite done that promises to fix it for your $15/month and you can't know if your $15/month will actually do anything until at least a few months.

 

That's why I've looked into GW2 a lot before deciding to pre-purchase it. Again, FFXIV taught me this lesson. Everything else you said, I couldnt have stated it better myself. Which is why when it came to SWTOR, I set my account up for month by month. As I'd rather not invest 6 months worth, and decide to leave the game in the 4th month. Cost a bit more in the long run, but still having the option of being able to bail out, is comforting.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[Skolops]

I was kind of wondering if you could give me a specific item name itself, so I could Google it. I understand your explanation, so thanks for that atleast. Only thing is, Karma is for PvE shinies, where as you use Glory for PvP shinies. You mentioned a buff like the Ilum buff, but on demand. However there is only a Karma boost, not a Glory (PvP currency boost). So I dont think any WvWvW stuff, would be under the PvE section, and you -cant- get a Glory boost through the cash shop. And after looking through some of the Karma Vendors, I dont see anything even remotely related t

 

Well the thing is everything I'm saying I'm putting pretty much exactly the way it was described any articles and youtube videos I looked at to research this game. Apparently the pay to win In world pvp with karma was and still is a pretty big controversy on the gw2 forums and elsewhere. I think you're missing something in your reading. Heck, even one of the previous post just confirm that this is true but try to minimize the impact.

 

As for the guild issue, I wasn't so much talking about in game tactics as I was open world stuff, where all of the karma they have gained and even simply the sheer numbers that they will have from having spam recruited everybody and his brother in the general chatk in every zone will give them the theoretucallly huge advantages that would just kill me inside to see such terrible guilds as them having.

[Skolops]

I read this entire thing. You guys should take whatever Skolops says with a grain of salt. I don't know where he gets his info from but it's clearly not from actual in-game experience ( regarding GW2 ).

 

Everything I'm saying is coming directly from blogs videos and articles, oftenn from the developers themselves. On top of that there are plenty of other posters in this and other topics to have played the beta and are saying the same and even far worse things than I am.

[Skolops]

I'm not at home now but if you would like a source

or more details on the karma stuff, google a video calls how to gw2 economy. It's the best I can do off the top of my head and using my cell phone

[Katsuragisama]

Well the thing is everything I'm saying I'm putting pretty much exactly the way it was described any articles and youtube videos I looked at to research this game. Apparently the pay to win In world pvp with karma was and still is a pretty big controversy on the gw2 forums and elsewhere. I think you're missing something in your reading. Heck, even one of the previous post just confirm that this is true but try to minimize the impact.

 

Again, Karma is PvE, not PvP. I've seen nothing in the Karma Vendors that remotely effects WvWvW/PvP. I continuously ask for your sources, yet you provide none.

 

Everything I'm saying is coming directly from blogs videos and articles, oftenn from the developers themselves. On top of that there are plenty of other posters in this and other topics to have played the beta and are saying the same and even far worse things than I am.

 

Again, source or it wasnt said. Until then, still taking what you say with a grain of salt.

 

Edit to add: Thanks, already did. About to watch it now anyways. I'd also take your source on the forums as well.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[Astarica]

True true. Though ArenaNet has been around since '05, so I wouldnt say they're new to the scene. I just hope they dont pull a Square Enix. Final Fantasy XI was a very nice game. But when Square Enix made Final Fantasy XIV, they took everything they learned from FFXI, threw it out the window, and failed with FFXIV.

 

 

 

Yes, going around alot of MMO forums recently, I keep hearing about how Trion is constantly pushing out new content for Rift. While I havent played that game since it first came out (quest grind types have to capture my attention some how, for SWTOR the cutscenes and story kept me going), but mayhaps I'll try it out again later down the road.

 

 

 

 

I mean 'new' as in new philsophy. The dominant MMORPG philosophy is 'keep taking $15/month for as long as possible until your customer realized they're not getting jack for their $15/month.' This is a well entrenched belief in the sub-based genre of MMORPG. Even F2Ps are just a variation of that, as their goal is usually to trick you into buying as much stuff as possible before you realized you're wasting your money for nothing. These games aren't really interested in providing value for your money, as opposed to just ripping you off as much as possible before you leave.

 

I mean I know every MMORPG comes out and say, "We're here to deliver more content and be responsive and blah blah blah" but that's all they say so until I see some action to show otherwise I'm going to start out skeptical. Trion is the one company whose content release cycle shows that they're at least somewhat interested in providing more content as opposed to just keep taking your $15/month and hope you won't notice it. RIFT wasn't the right game for me but I respect Trion for doing that, and I think in the long run it's going to be companies like Trion that win because the days where you can live on just ripping players off is over.

 

If ArenaNet turns out to be one of those new champions all the more power to them. I'm just skeptical until I see proof, though since it's got no sub game it's easy to stay ahead as long as you've good MMORPG knowledge since you're never in the phase of 'keep sending $15/month and hope something improves". Even if GW2 turns out to suck, you'll never have to worry about keep sending your $15/month and hope it gets better.

[Astarica]

That's why I've looked into GW2 a lot before deciding to pre-purchase it. Again, FFXIV taught me this lesson. Everything else you said, I couldnt have stated it better myself. Which is why when it came to SWTOR, I set my account up for month by month. As I'd rather not invest 6 months worth, and decide to leave the game in the 4th month. Cost a bit more in the long run, but still having the option of being able to bail out, is comforting.[/color]

 

Well I got burned for $60 on Diablo 3 and it's hard for me to imagine GW2 being worse than that. I didn't pre purchase GW2 because I got burned by the general 'buy this game for beta spot' deal so I'll just wait until the game is out. Generally speaking it's pretty hard to imagine any established companies to totally screw up the 1 to level max game so badly that you didn't even get your $60 worth. Assuming you've some reasonable self discipline, i.e. the first thing you do isn't sink $500 into the cash shop when you buy GW2, it's generally a safe bet. I don't know if I'll have the time to play SWTOR + GW2 + some other games I plan to play so I didn't pre purchase it, but if time isn't an issue I'm sure it's a very safe bet for $60.

[Skolops]

Ahh Here's the problem: It's actually influence which we are supposed to be talking about in reference to open world pvp, not karma. Again, I'm still just on my phone but a quick search on the wiki how to clear this up. Take another look now that we know that and see what you think. Again, the guy in that video and people on this forum and others minimize the importance of this feature by saying that the cost would not be efficient or would be too much or something of that variety. That doesn't really matter to me, as I think that the very fact that it's possible put a serious hit on the integrity of the game.

 

I also frankly do not trust the developers that this will not be coming feature which somehow impacts spvp down the line or that a real money will not in some way come into the picture. As others have pointed out, they are in this to make money and eventually they will start to tighten the noose.

[Astarica]

Ahh Here's the problem: It's actually influence which we are supposed to be talking about in reference to open world pvp, not karma. Again, I'm still just on my phone but a quick search on the wiki how to clear this up. Take another look now that we know that and see what you think. Again, the guy in that video and people on this forum and others minimize the importance of this feature by saying that the cost would not be efficient or would be too much or something of that variety. That doesn't really matter to me, as I think that the very fact that it's possible put a serious hit on the integrity of the game.

 

I also frankly do not trust the developers that this will not be coming feature which somehow impacts spvp down the line or that a real money will not in some way come into the picture. As others have pointed out, they are in this to make money and eventually they will start to tighten the noose.

 

Of course every dev overpromises what they can do but it's hard to see GW2 deliver so little that you'd get burned for more than the cost of the box. If all the features in GW2 never work out, it'd probably play just like any other MMORPG and yet you're posting on a board on a game that also plays like any other MMORPG. I don't know if I got the time for 'yet another MMORPG' so I didn't preorder it but it's certainly not a risky investment outside of time.

[Necrosov]

You don't buy gold. You trade gems for existing gold from players. If they don't have the gold, you don't get any gold. Period.

 

http://www.arena.net/blog/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2

 

You can buy boosts from the Gem store with real money that will give you a 1hr 50% increase for XP gain, Karma, Glory and some other things like crafting and kill streak XP rewards that you earn. You can also buy these things with in-game currency instead just like everything else in the store by trading for gems. That's full the extent of your pay 2 win argument.

 

http://www.guildwars2forum.com/threads/5882-A-Closer-Look-at-the-Gem-Store

 

Here are rewards you can buy with influence concerning WvW.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Art_of_War#Art_of_War

 

Takes at minimum 24 hours to build the good stuff which only lasts you 12hours. Your guild has to compete with all the others to to own the keep. You have to be at the keep to get the buffs - it's only good for defending. This is nothing game breaking and hardly pay 2 win.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Necrosov
.

[Katsuragisama]

[...]

 

Not going to quote all of that, just to show this is in response to you. Very well said, and that is my same philosophy. I will put some trust into the company, unless they give me reason to be skeptical. Much like how I have believed in BioWare, but many of the bugs that have existed since launch, still exist, even when they are supposedly fixed. So my skepticism for them, is at an all time high.

 

Well I got burned for $60 on Diablo 3 and it's hard for me to imagine GW2 being worse than that. I didn't pre purchase GW2 because I got burned by the general 'buy this game for beta spot' deal so I'll just wait until the game is out. Generally speaking it's pretty hard to imagine any established companies to totally screw up the 1 to level max game so badly that you didn't even get your $60 worth. Assuming you've some reasonable self discipline, i.e. the first thing you do isn't sink $500 into the cash shop when you buy GW2, it's generally a safe bet. I don't know if I'll have the time to play SWTOR + GW2 + some other games I plan to play so I didn't pre purchase it, but if time isn't an issue I'm sure it's a very safe bet for $60.

 

Same for me. If the game continues to be great at and after launch, and I feel they have earned my initial sixty bucks and plus that. I might, because I have a choice compared to subscription based MMO, throw a couple bucks their way to get a vanity item. Although, I think most gamers, of any genre, by now have felt burned by a company. For me, it was FFXIV. And I think all of us have learned our lessons very quickly from that, and said no or put alot of time into researching the games/companies.

 

]I also frankly do not trust the developers that this will not be coming feature which somehow impacts spvp down the line or that a real money will not in some way come into the picture. As others have pointed out' date=' they are in this to make money and eventually they will start to tighten the noose.[/quote']

 

Everything before that, is what I connected the dots to before I went on about it. I stated that gold could be traded to in-game coin, and coin for influence. While I understand its inefficient, I see where you come to the conclusion that the fact that it even exist to begin with, appalls you.

 

That said, as I've stated before and many times over, looking at their items in the cash shop for GW1 in no way effects sPvP (as we've both said, WvWvW cannot be balanced, its just an epic zerg fest). If you look around for the most balanced PvP, I think most people say EVE or GW1, along with a few other F2P/B2P MMOs. So I dont have any worries about that.

 

You've proven me wrong. And in my opinion it wont effect much, and they (probably) wont change the structure and add sPvP P2W. But if they do, then like I said, I will drop that game in a nanosecond.

 

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

 

Also, gotta admit the depth of the "How To Guild Wars 2 Economy" blew my mind. Economics 101 + MMO = win. Haha.

[funkiestj]

Bolster in open world PvP would suck! You would have to have superior numbers to gank. Ugh.

[Morrolan]

Well the thing is everything I'm saying I'm putting pretty much exactly the way it was described any articles and youtube videos I looked at to research this game. Apparently the pay to win In world pvp with karma was and still is a pretty big controversy on the gw2 forums and elsewhere. I think you're missing something in your reading. Heck, even one of the previous post just confirm that this is true but try to minimize the impact.

 

This is why you fail. The GW2 forums have had just as much misinformation spread by those with knee jerk reactions to the cash shop. Arenanet have confirmed that any buffs you can get in PvE from the cash shop either directly or indirectly will not work in sPvP OR WvWvW or have minimal influence in WvWvW. They have stated this outright.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Morrolan

[Morrolan]

EVERY GW2 map is exactly the same. Sure, the layouts are slightly different and they look different, but they're exactly the same.

 

Wrong, they have similar victory conditions, the layouts and the bonuses leads to different tactics being required. Plus anet have stated that they will introduce other maps with different victory conditions later. And then you have keg brawl which is not formally part of sPvP but which is a full featured PvP match that is similar to Huttball

[optimacy]

GW2 is overrated, but that doesn't mean it won't be better than SWTOR.

 

Killing world pvp in swtor was a huge mistake. You need more than WZs in an MMO to hold people's interest.

 

Ranked WZs came out very late and the preseason has been too long with no meaningful improvements.

 

Based on preseason, there is no reason to stick around if you aren't playing a Pyrotech, Op healer or Mara. They are far and away preferred over other options and take up 6 of the 8 spots on the very best teams. The other two spots have to be tanks which are the least popular to play.

[Scritchy]

I mean 'new' as in new philsophy. The dominant MMORPG philosophy is 'keep taking $15/month for as long as possible until your customer realized they're not getting jack for their $15/month.' This is a well entrenched belief in the sub-based genre of MMORPG. Even F2Ps are just a variation of that, as their goal is usually to trick you into buying as much stuff as possible before you realized you're wasting your money for nothing. These games aren't really interested in providing value for your money, as opposed to just ripping you off as much as possible before you leave

 

...

 

If ArenaNet turns out to be one of those new champions all the more power to them. I'm just skeptical until I see proof, though since it's got no sub game it's easy to stay ahead as long as you've good MMORPG knowledge since you're never in the phase of 'keep sending $15/month and hope something improves". Even if GW2 turns out to suck, you'll never have to worry about keep sending your $15/month and hope it gets better.

ArenaNet made enough money from the original Guild Wars that they were able to keep pay to win out of it yet still be able to spend as long as they need to perfect the sequel. They know people will spend a few dollars on certain things, which are completely unnecessary to play the game, or provide alternate means to obtain those items. It isn't a new philosophy for them, they've been living it since they were formed in 2000. They are a bunch of gamers, not a bunch of MBAs. That new philosophy you are talking about has been around for a while, you just haven't seen it.

 

Oh, and one of the things they are actually concerned about in their games is fun. http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success They don't need that grinding nonsense to keep people paying, if people aren't having fun they won't spend money.