Sith and killing each other.

[JasonDayspring]

In the video, it was the apprentice killing his master. It isn't that failure is always met with death, otherwise no one could become skilled in any profession. It's only repeated, or catastrophic failure that is punished with death. To quote Vader "You have failed me for the last time, Admiral." Note that he said "last time" implying that the guy had screwed up before, likely several times, and this screw up was simply to big to forgive.

 

Look at it from the perspective of the apprentice. His master blew the advantage the Sith had against the rest of the Republic by letting them be warned. After such a failure, even if allowed to live, his master would never rise in rank. An apprentice can only rise in rank as their master does. Killing his master (and thus ending his apprenticeship) was the only way his power could continue to grow, and the only way to separate himself from the failure.

Edited December 13, 2011 by JasonDayspring

[Lokiliesmith]

Sith infighting is actually a product of the nature of people, not the nature of the teachings. The issue is this. The path of the Dark Side means ruling your passion to make it work for you. The problem that arises is that people simply cannot keep themselves in check 24/7. Eventually they make a mistake. Sooner or later they overreach themselves. The killing of the weak isn't what causes Sith empires to fall. It is the fighting between the strong. A "perfect" Sith would be more content to be an able 2nd in command than an incompetent leader. The failure to recognize one's limits is the first step every Sith takes toward death.

 

 

As far as killing someone to gain power goes it's an interesting thing. How can you measure the strength of a leader? By the strength of those he leads. The most powerful Sith Lords have the most powerful Sith Apprentices. The Lord has to train the Apprentice to increase his own power. In turn, when his reach exceeds his grasp in this he dies, once again, due to the failure to recognize his own limits.

[MawBone]

The way to remember it is there is no promotions in the Sith. You promote your self.

[Legionless]

Just something for you to consider. The rule of two, one master one apprentice, it is micro-management. It works. Serious note READ the Bane Books. If you want to see why the dark side is evil enough for you to love and hate. Bane makes the point of two can be greater in power than an army, and his manipulation of the master plan is worth the 3 book great story telling. Each installment leaves you wondering what will happen next. Great Star Wars story based on the Sith side of the force.

[JasonDayspring]

The way to remember it is there is no promotions in the Sith. You promote your self.

 

That's a load of crap, and shows you know nothing about the lore of this period, or the game. If you get caught killing other Sith, without just cause by the judgement of the Sith council, they execute your ***.

 

They are not an Anarchistic Darwinian society. They have laws. They have ethics. They are not mindlessly evil, or stupid. Just because their ethics don't match 20th Century Western Christian society, doesn't mean they are wrong, or invalid.

[Captain_Zone]

That's a load of crap, and shows you know nothing about the lore of this period, or the game. If you get caught killing other Sith, without just cause by the judgement of the Sith council, they execute your ***.

 

They are not an Anarchistic Darwinian society. They have laws. They have ethics. They are not mindlessly evil, or stupid. Just because their ethics don't match 20th Century Western Christian society, doesn't mean they are wrong, or invalid.

 

Anarchist? No. Darwinian? Yes. It's still Survival of the Fittest. And you forgot that any Sith Lord can be framed and executed by a peer or apprentice. And as long as you get away with it, you advance in Sith society. As I said in a previous post, that is the Sith's ultimate downfall. Their glaring weakness. They can't UNITE enough to press Galactic Conquest to its final outcome. They choke on their own politics. Much like the republic, come to think of it. Two sides of the same coin, there. Politics. The methods might be different, but the outcome is the same. Neither side can gain complete control over the other as long as politics get in the way. The Sith lack the ability to form a cohesive unit that won't turn on each other, and the Republic can't form a cohesive unit because of all the infighting in the Senate. Politics sucks, but there you have it. -shrugs-

[JasonDayspring]

Anarchist? No. Darwinian? Yes. It's still Survival of the Fittest.

 

Hint: No comma between Anarchist and Darwinian = Anarchist Darwinian.

Not Anarchist and Darwinian.

 

I was saying that their society wasn't chaotic. It also isn't purely based on survival of the fittest. Most of the culture are non force sensitive. For the most part, it's only the actual Sith that take part in the infighting. And even then, they have rules. Just because you have more strength in the force, or are better with a lightsaber, doesn't mean you allowed to kill even those below your rank.

 

People break the law and get away with murder in every culture, even when it's privately known that they were responsible, and still maintain their position in society. Look at the Mafia. That doesn't mean killing your way to the top is tolerated. The Sith promote solely on merit. They have less corruption, and more honest politics, than the Republic. You can't buy political power in the Sith Empire. You have to earn it, and continuously prove that you deserve it.

[Oonkeh_]

that's why the empire lose at the end of this game, cuz they pray on their own guys more then they prey on the enemy!

 

Who said the Empire loses?

 

No really. Who said the Empire loses? From what i'm more inclined to believe, the Empire will end up winning the war, but via plot-shielding the Heroes (Republic) will make a comeback. I mean, if the Jedi didn't make a clear enough statement, they say it themselves that the Republic and the Jedi cannot win if the peace-treaty is to be broken and the Sith go to war with them again. The Sith really don't need the Emperor's guidance anymore because they have a working military structure, an empire of their own, and a Dark Council that works cooperatively with one another.

 

And, as people seem to be misinterpreting - this Sith Empire is not as merciless and needlessly barbaric as they're making it out to be. The Sith in this Era have been recalled to have been "surprisingly cooperative" with one another, as compared to Sith of prior Empires. They're much more a Brotherhood in this era than they were, lets say, Exar Kuns time or Naga Sadows, and they weren't needlessly misguided when Lord Kaan led the Sith many years after (which when accurately read into, were weakened by their Jedi-influenced ideals. Kaan was a former Jedi Master). It's the natural way of Sith to cull the blatantly weak; don't ignore the resourcefulness of the Sith though - that's a factor of them that goes highly underestimated. The Sith Warrior storyline and the Inquisitor storyline combined show that the Sith weren't utterly, and atrociously, murderous of their own in the way you're talking about them.

 

This Empire actually works in a coherent, beneficial manner. They execute individuals on more occasions that have (also on more than one occasion) shown weakness and failure, and outright execute individuals who ignore the chain of command. In some countries today they can execute you for doing such a thing, it's considered treason. With the current background of the Sith Empire, all Sith (including the Aspiring Sith (Acolytes)) are held above their general military compatriot in terms of status and power. So basically, insulting or disobeying a Sith can lead to an.. early retirement. Individuals like Grand Moff Kilran can only get away with the death of an Apprentice who, lets say, is the student of a Sith Lord like Darth Angraal because he has enough political and militant backing power and is a valuable asset to the Empire. However, if Kilran was to do this frequently.. you can be assured the Dark Council would pop him off (they'd be getting quite annoyed with the way he goes about killing valuable assets).

 

And no, Captain Zone, in this game the Empire is not needlessly anarchist in its belief - which is what people here are making them out to be. It's part of the lore in this game that states that no Sith may kill one another without a justifiable or understandable reason - it can lead to execution, and for most you need the order from a Darth (whose considerably powerful enough to do so, with connections to the Dark Council). This is why

Lord Zash becomes a Darth despite being the perpetrator of Darth Skotia's death, when Darth Thanaton calls her in to the Dark Council to face a possible execution. She escapes with her life and earns the title Darth because she had an alibi - she was nowhere near the scene of the crime when it actually happened Guess who does the dirty work. In rank, Darth is superior to Lord in this game.

 

Edited December 13, 2011 by Oonkeh_

[Tyinthalin]

Some of the killing each other is part of the goal of being Sith'ari, the perfect being. If the apprentice is more powerful than the master, the master is killed. The apprentice becomes a master and takes an apprentice, apprentice gains more power, master is killed etc. Each time the apprentice gains more power than the last.

 

Here is a simple version of this:

 

Master1 teaches apprentice1 everything they know, apprentice1 learns and gains more power through their own experience and kills Master1

 

Apprentice1 becomes Master2

 

Master2 teaches apprentice2 everything they know, plus what Master1 taught them. Apprentice2 gains more power and kills Master2, becoming Master3

 

Master3 is more powerful than both Master1 and Master 2.

 

Master4 is more powerful than Master1,2, and 3

 

Master9001 is more powerful than all the masters before him.

[RobertGoulet]

Why do they do it? I know it's because they either want to have more power or because someone had failed them. But if they didn't live like CounterStrike players and actually preserved their warriors, would they be able to take control of everything? The Jedi give them a hard time already. What if their numbers just multiplied because they stopped...teamkilling?

 

 

While it's been said that it's in order to filter out the weak, it's actually the desire for more power that lead the Sith to kill each other, and helped destroy the Sith empire. Thus the Rule of Two came to pass.

[JasonDayspring]

Some of the killing each other is part of the goal of being Sith'ari, the perfect being. If the apprentice is more powerful than the master, the master is killed. The apprentice becomes a master and takes an apprentice, apprentice gains more power, master is killed etc. Each time the apprentice gains more power than the last.

 

Here is a simple version of this:

 

Master1 teaches apprentice1 everything they know, apprentice1 learns and gains more power through their own experience and kills Master1

 

Apprentice1 becomes Master2

 

Master2 teaches apprentice2 everything they know, plus what Master1 taught them. Apprentice2 gains more power and kills Master2, becoming Master3

 

Master3 is more powerful than both Master1 and Master 2.

 

Master4 is more powerful than Master1,2, and 3

 

Master9001 is more powerful than all the masters before him.

 

Except that Sith master's almost never pass on all their knowledge. Even when dying, and the knowledge will be lost forever, they would hold back. What you get instead, is the apprentice killing their master once their master is feeble or wounded, and thus isn't really stronger than their master was when their master first ended their apprenticeship.

[BansheeLT]

^ This. Here is where the theory and how it actually turns out clash.

 

In fact the strongest Sith tended to get knowledge from masters (spirits/holocrons) who had been dead for thousands of years because their own masters were too scared to teach them everything.

[jengelb]

The Sith seek to use their passion to gain power, but they fail. They end up as slaves to the dark side and their own passion. That's why they can win battle after battle, but still lose the war.

 

The Jedi understand the Sith, but the Sith are incapable of truly understanding the Jedi. Things like mercy and compassion are so alien to the Sith mindset that they can't defend against them.

 

Palpatine was one of the strongest dark side user who ever lived, and he was destroyed because it never occurred to him that a piece of Anakin still remained within Vader. It was Palpatine's own lack of vision that caused his downfall, his inability to understand a father's love for his child.

[spencer_]

Because killing the competition is easier than overcoming it with self improvement. Survival of the fittest isn't always survival of the best.

 

This is actually a brilliant point. There was a comic run a while back that pitted superman against his evil counterpart from another universe, ultraman. In the end, superman won out because ultraman always killed his enemies, never facing them again. Superman on the other hand, repeatedly had to best enemies who came back stronger every time.

 

The sith don't constantly strive for self improvement. That is the way of the Jedi. It's why the Jedi always win in the end, because Even if the worst sith can outclass the worst Jedi, the best Jedi will always outclass the best sith.

[Powercow]

Who said the Empire loses?

I don't wanna spoil anything but...

by 50, you should know how and why. Actually it's for the exact reasons stated in this thread.

 

[HerrAwesome]

This is actually a brilliant point. There was a comic run a while back that pitted superman against his evil counterpart from another universe, ultraman. In the end, superman won out because ultraman always killed his enemies, never facing them again. Superman on the other hand, repeatedly had to best enemies who came back stronger every time.

 

The sith don't constantly strive for self improvement. That is the way of the Jedi. It's why the Jedi always win in the end, because Even if the worst sith can outclass the worst Jedi, the best Jedi will always outclass the best sith.

 

Superman wins against the people he doesn't kill because of plot armor. If you take plot armor out of the equation, Superman - or the Jedi - would die sooner, rather than later, due to mercy.

[Zerrik]

The same thing that Bane mocked the Sith Brotherhood for 1,000 years BBY still applies to this Sith Empire: A Sith's drive is to gain power in the dark side and to be unrivaled in strength, but this only works on a small scale setting such as the rule of two. The Sith path is not for the weak willed or merciful, and as such they are weeded out along the path by the ones with the stronger desire for power. The flaw becomes most apparent in situations like this where there are so many powerful dark jedi that they are collapsing on themselves with infighting, betrayal and murder to weild more influence. Yes, uniting against a common foe would be more beneficial, but that is against the sith way of placing your own power above and beyond anything else, and is not up to discussion considering it is the very nature of the dark side itself. =O

 

I recomend the Path of Destruction book from the Bane series. <_< Drew Karpyshyn did very well on that first novel.

 

I agree it is a great Series. The rule of 2 is the only way the Sith can truly survive.

[Captain_Zone]

Superman wins against the people he doesn't kill because of plot armor. If you take plot armor out of the equation, Superman - or the Jedi - would die sooner, rather than later, due to mercy.

 

Not to mention Superman has been nerfed over the years from "Completely indestructible except for Kryptonite" to "powerless under a red sun" to "vulnerable to magic, mental manipulation, and beat him down enough and he will die" as seen in the original Doomsday: Death of Superman books.

 

Plot armor is basically the only reason why Superman is still around, since they can't nerf him too much without putting him in the ground permanently. God rest Kal-L of Krypton. The original Superman. Killed by Superboy Prime on Mogo under a red sun.

 

Anyhow, The Jedi are nothing BUT plot armor. A Jedi doesn't learn from the mistakes of the past. As many times as the Jedi have been hunted nearly to extinction by the Sith, yet they STILL refuse to heed the warning signs that something big is about to happen... OR they overreact and make things worse in the process.

 

Sorry, folks. Getting a headache thinking about it.

[CaptainMax]

I won't rehash what I agree with or belabour what I don't, but there is food for thought in this thread.

 

One point worth adding is that, at least at this stage, the Sith path of the Dark Side has elements of state-sponsored religion (and much that that implies).

 

As a result, every force-sensitive in the Empire will range from pragmatic lip-service to true-believer zealot (and all in between) and thus will use that culture of competition to justify their actions or will actually feel justified.

 

Personally, I admire the core of jedi morals (as I perceive them) which seem to come to "live in the world as it should be to show the world what it can be".

But, in context of this game, I am hooked on the sith's "spirit of aggressive competition"... Or the theory of it.

[JinsGhost]

Survival of the fittest...

 

Only the strong survive...

 

Do unto others as they would do unto YOU!!!

Edited December 14, 2011 by JinsGhost

[Gestahlt]

 

 

This sums it up.

[Kraniumbrud]

in my oppinion its normal aristrocratic behavior(especialyl among just slightly selfish people), just go back to the dark ages and see how many knights knocked eachother off for silly things like honour, not to mention the more serius things like power and beliefs...

 

but truely..it wasnt until bane's rule of two..that death because ensured for sith...one of the reasons why bane sought a apprentis which was powerfull enough to kill him eventually...though he failed in his eyes, though later she got him anyway..but regardless that was just my 2 cents

[Mordegrus]

The Sith, from what I've been able to understand, live by Darwin's Law of survival of the fittest. If you aren't able to perform your duties, then you're a liability. Simple as that. If you slip up, you're dead. That's how they operate, and the Galaxy is probably a better place because of that. Just imagine if the Sith ever got their act together and actually UNITED instead of chasing their own agendas. They would have slaughtered the entire Jedi Order by now. lol

 

Death to the Weak!!

[OldVengeance]

I never got the impression that the Sith seriously damaged their numbers with their self destructive ways (in most circumstances). There is always more hungry to take their places.