Balance Shadow top tier DPS?

[Boxer]

Whenever ever I see the discussion of best DPS classes, I almost never see Shadows managed. However, in my guild, one of the top, if not the top, DPS'r is a balance spec'd shadow. We have killed HM Kephess, with this shadow leading the dps, so it's not that everyone else is undergeared.

 

Are there other balance shadows that can hang with sentinels in DPS, or is it just that this shadow has figured something out that you other guys haven't?

[xIphonex]

Abosolutely can, I usually parse from 1490-1540 so I'm not too shabby.

 

-Chukles

[jphuynh]

Whenever ever I see the discussion of best DPS classes, I almost never see Shadows managed. However, in my guild, one of the top, if not the top, DPS'r is a balance spec'd shadow. We have killed HM Kephess, with this shadow leading the dps, so it's not that everyone else is undergeared.

 

Are there other balance shadows that can hang with sentinels in DPS, or is it just that this shadow has figured something out that you other guys haven't?

 

What is your shadow's & sentinel's dps on HM EC: Kephess?

I mean, in pug SM EC groups, my shadow's dps is usually the top, and I crush GS's as well as sentinels, but that's pugs. Meanwhile, in my guild of geared/top tier players, on HM EC: Kephess, my balance shadow's dps is around 1300dps, while our sentinel is at 1400dps, that's shown on our guild's combined parse log at the very end of the raid, uploaded via askmrrobot.com/torparse.com.

 

To answer your question, balance shadow have the potential to be among the top 5 highest dps, if not the top dps, in a 16m raid. In a 8m raid, possibly top 2 dps for sure.

 

Below is one fight where I did beat our sentinel as well as one of our three gs's, but he and i usually tug back and forth with him the better record.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/69fc4683-0659-48ca-be71-fc0a774a697c/overview#d=0,f=55,b=1

Edited July 23, 2012 by jphuynh

[jphuynh]

Abosolutely can, I usually parse from 1490-1540 so I'm not too shabby.

 

-Chukles

 

If you can parse 1500dps on HM EC: Kephess, can you please link a upload parse link? I'd very much like to learn more from you because I can't pull those numbers on HM Kephess and I believe my gear is fully campaigned and min/max'd according to SimulationCraft, and I think I have my rotation down to a science. Perhaps I'm missing something? I average 1300dps on HM Kephess as seen below.

 

link to my parse log, Adrenalynn

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/f3dd486d-2576-4027-a633-1bc19e286907/overview#d=0,f=46,b=1

Edited July 23, 2012 by jphuynh

[GekoKujo]

What spec are you guys using for Balance in PvE? I tend to go with 5/5/31 but that is because I will also play PvP with it. However I am very curious as to what you guys are running.

 

Looking at the parse it looks like you used force technique just a few times. Do you generally just stick with double strike, proc mind crush and shadow strike as much as you can? Along with using force in balance when its up of course as well. It looks like you put in sever force as well

 

Thanks!

Edited July 23, 2012 by GekoKujo

[jphuynh]

What spec are you guys using for Balance in PvE? I tend to go with 5/5/31 but that is because I will also play PvP with it. However I am very curious as to what you guys are running.

 

Thanks!

 

here's my Shadow PVE Balance spec of 7/3/31:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc/#601fRbRrrkMfzZhZMc0M.2

 

Priority Dps List:

1.Spinning Strike (at <30% hp)

2.FiB

3.Mind Crush (w/ proc)

4.Shadow Strike (w/ proc)

5.Force Breach (upon expiration or close to ending)

6.Sever Force (upon expiration or close to ending)

7.Double Strike (filler but does lots of damage)

8.Saber Strike (only if out of force)

Edited July 23, 2012 by jphuynh

[GekoKujo]

Thanks man. The link you posted is not actually bringing up your spec just the general page.

[jphuynh]

Thanks man. The link you posted is not actually bringing up your spec just the general page.

 

yeah i just noticed before you even posted, try it now?

[xIphonex]

If you can parse 1500dps on HM EC: Kephess, can you please link a upload parse link? I'd very much like to learn more from you because I can't pull those numbers on HM Kephess and I believe my gear is fully campaigned and min/max'd according to SimulationCraft, and I think I have my rotation down to a science. Perhaps I'm missing soimething? I average 1300dps on HM Kephess as seen below.

 

link to my parse log, Adrenalynn

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/f3dd486d-2576-4027-a633-1bc19e286907/overview#d=0,f=46,b=1

 

Well I meant I parse that on the ops dumby, I don't typically run combat logging during ops because it clogs my computer files up. If you want I can screenshot one of my parses for you and post it here. I was also thinking of posting a few images of my stats if you'd like to see on another thread. The biggest thing though is if your using that project in boss fights your wrong. It's a substanial dps drop because of the force drain we take. Great for pvp though since you need to burst people down.

[jphuynh]

here's my Shadow PVE Balance spec of 7/3/31:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc/#601fRbRrrkMfzZhZMc0M.2

 

Priority Dps List:

1.Spinning Strike (at <30% hp)

2.FiB

3.Mind Crush (w/ proc)

4.Shadow Strike (w/ proc)

5.Force Breach (upon expiration or close to ending)

6.Sever Force (upon expiration or close to ending)

7.Double Strike (filler but does lots of damage)

8.Saber Strike (only if out of force)

 

Did you see any project in my combat parse? I also didn't mention project anywhere in my Priority Dps List. But anyways, yes project is removed from PVE bc yes it does lower your dps. And btw, on the OPS test dummy, I parse for 1700dps during a 5min duration, but thats a stationary test dummy, live simulation is another story.

[xIphonex]

Oh I see how you parse really high you spec into the shadow strike proc, didn't think it could be useful but from what you say it seems greats.

[Boarg]

Oh I see how you parse really high you spec into the shadow strike proc, didn't think it could be useful but from what you say it seems greats.

 

Balance dps should always have Infiltration Tactics.

 

Whenever ever I see the discussion of best DPS classes, I almost never see Shadows managed. However, in my guild, one of the top, if not the top, DPS'r is a balance spec'd shadow. We have killed HM Kephess, with this shadow leading the dps, so it's not that everyone else is undergeared.

 

Are there other balance shadows that can hang with sentinels in DPS, or is it just that this shadow has figured something out that you other guys haven't?

 

It's just that your guild's Shadow is a better player than your guild's Sentinels and Gunslingers if it has them. Connection quality and such can factor in, too.

 

 

Balance Shadow is a good pve dps spec, but it's not at that top tier for single target. More like second tier. Being dot based, it's pretty easy to get consistent results out of it, and the spec is really good in 2 and 3 target situations which helps it look good in a lot of common situations. It has a solid place in end-game PvE. But if you took that same player on the Shadow and put him in a Sentinel with comparably tuned gear and got him lots of practice, he would hit single target damage numbers that just wouldn't be possible on his Shadow, and he'd be supplying more group utility at the same time.

[jphuynh]

Balance dps should always have Infiltration Tactics.

 

 

 

It's just that your guild's Shadow is a better player than your guild's Sentinels and Gunslingers if it has them. Connection quality and such can factor in, too.

 

 

Balance Shadow is a good pve dps spec, but it's not at that top tier for single target. More like second tier. Being dot based, it's pretty easy to get consistent results out of it, and the spec is really good in 2 and 3 target situations which helps it look good in a lot of common situations. It has a solid place in end-game PvE. But if you took that same player on the Shadow and put him in a Sentinel with comparably tuned gear and got him lots of practice, he would hit single target damage numbers that just wouldn't be possible on his Shadow, and he'd be supplying more group utility at the same time.

 

EXACTLY. to the dot! Just so happened that your shadow is outplaying your sent/gs's, but like Boarg said, put that same player behind a top tier 1 dps class, he'll outperform his own shadow class easy. and yes, shadow dps will be tier 2 bc lack of inspiration and transcedence and zen and etc...

[jphuynh]

heres another combat parse from my 16m hm ec run last night. no sents in raid though ;/

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/29430976-7798-41fe-b3c1-ed8abf549710/overview#d=0,f=40,b=1

[Assillius]

easily do 1800 dps with 7/3/31 campain gear

[babygotmoreback]

I love my balance specced shadow. I run about 1750-1800 on target dummy (with NO armor debuff). However, on my sentinel I run about 2k. So, yeah, it's good dps, but for the same skill level, not as good as sentienl dps. Take that for what you will.

[Arousal]

Force in Balance

Mind Crush (w/ proc)

Force Breach

Spinning Strike (below 30%)

Sever Force

Project (for buff)

Shadow Strike

Double Strike

Saber Strike

[Cheaky]

yeah you have to use project to get the extra 9% crit. the only issue with project is it is a force hog so you really need to be cognizant and only use project when the crit buff is about to expire or when you pop force potency. all other times it's pretty much useless. as for dummy parses I also parse 1700-1800 depending on how long I want to parse for (I usually go for 10 minute duration) give or take full buffs no debuffs. Boss fights I'm lucky to break 1400. usually a good fight is 1300's but it just depends.

 

and sentinels/mauraders and commandos/bounty hunters parse 200-300 higher so no it's not even, although boss fights do seem to be a little closer. just depends on what each players responsibility is on some of the fights so it can be hard to gauge.

[Kitru]

yeah you have to use project to get the extra 9% crit.

 

Force Synergy (the 9% bonus crit to melee) is gained by getting a crit with *any* Force attack. Because all of your DoTs count for this, you should never have a problem maintaining said buff. Twin Disciplines, on the other hand, which provides 10% additional *melee* bonus damage (not Force) for 20 seconds, requires the explicit use of Project. The problem with this, however, is that the high cost of Project coupled with its low damage (since Balance has no Project damage augmenting abilities, it actually does *less* damage than Double Strike thanks to Adjudication) actually makes using Project a bad idea, even if you only use it once every 20 seconds to maintain the buff. You don't even want to use it on the move since, guess what, pretty much everything you use is instant and can be used on the fly.

 

You're better off completely ignoring Project and not bothering to take Upheaval or Twin Disciplines as a Balance Shadow. 10% more bonus damage to Shadow Strike, Double Strike, and Saber Strike just isn't worth it.

[Cheaky]

bleh the 10% melee dmg buff is what I meant. I'll try a parse without using project. doesn't make sense to me about project as my project hits harder than my double strike unless you are factoring the 2 hits added together which that I could see maybe. but even then I would thinkt the 1 project use to buff the melee damage across the board would be worth it.

[Kitru]

doesn't make sense to me about project as my project hits harder than my double strike unless you are factoring the 2 hits added together which that I could see maybe.

 

That's kind of the entire point. Double Strike isn't just a single hit. It's 2 hits. Only counting one of those 2 hits is kind of... idiotic. You also need to factor in Adjudication. Project only deals your basic 50-75% additional damage on a crit. Double Strike deals 100-125% additional damage on a crit.

 

but even then I would thinkt the 1 project use to buff the melee damage across the board would be worth it.

 

You have to realize that 10% melee bonus damage isn't really all that much and then you have to compare it to what the cost of gaining that benefit is. Pre-crit melee damage is determined by adding your weapon damage to your melee bonus damage, and your weapon damage makes up roughly 40% of that total. As such, 10% melee bonus damage only really amounts to about a 6% improvement to your melee damage, which, as a Balance Shadow, makes up a smaller portion of your total damage dealt than you imagine:

 

Mind Crush, Force in Balance, Force Breach, and Sever Force all hit comparatively harder than any of your melee attacks and make up a substantial portion of your total attacks; Mind Crush is once every 7.5 seconds, Sever Force and Force Breach every 18, and FiB every 15, leaves you with just shy of 70% of your GCDs for melee attacks; Mind Crush hits 60% harder than DS, Force Breach hits ~65% harder, Sever Force hits ~75% harder, and FiB hits ~50% harder. If all you did otherwise (which you couldn't because you would run out of Force) was spam DS, your Force Powers would make up ~50% of your total damage. Even in this dream scenario where we ignore Force costs, using Project would only increase your damage by ~3% total.

 

The reason you don't use Project, however, arises from Projects painfully high cost. Even taking Psychokinesis, Project costs 39 Force. Assuming it deals the same damage as Double Strike (let's say you took Upheaval as well and we're averaging the two out), Project is going to drain your Force 2.45 times as much as Double Strike does (39 Force compared to 23 Force and both use a GCD that you regenerate 12 Force during for net losses of 17 Force compared to 11 Force). Essentially, you're trading off 2.45 Double Strikes for Saber Strikes in exchange for 6% additional damage with your melee attacks. If ~2.45 Double Strikes every 21 seconds amounts to more than 6% of your total melee + Project damage dealt, you don't wanna be using Project.

 

For some napkin theorycrafting, check this out. With Project, let's assume we refresh at 21 seconds. 30% of that time is comprised of using our other Force attacks so there is 15 seconds to use melee attacks and Project, 2 of which are going to be Shadow Strike (amount to roughly 1.6 times the damage of a DS each) and 1 of which is going to be Project (1 DS equivalent). That leaves 7 more GCDs, 3 of which are probably gonna be DS and 4 of which are gonna be Saber Strikes (which deal roughly half the damage of a DS) for resource maintenance. The total number of DS damage equivalents you get from using Project are ~9.7 (1 from Projectx1, 3.2 *1.06 from Shadow Strikex2, 3 * 1.06 from DSx3 and 2 * 1.06 from Saber Strikex4). Without using Project, you can trade off 2 of those Saber Strikes for Double Strikes to get 10.2 DS equivalents (3.2 from Shadow Strikex2, 6 from DSx6, and 1 from Saber Strikex2). In short, Project costs too much Force to deal too little damage, even factoring in the additional damage you would deal with other powers after getting the buff.

[Assillius]

http://s017.radikal.ru/i413/1211/4e/4bf5e3800c9f.png

 

as you can see easily 1800 and i'm not using project at all. imho most useless for balance

Edited November 1, 2012 by Assillius

[CpnWiggler]

Hey Kitru, I don't quite agree with your thoughts on project. I felt the same way, but I've found I can make it work effectively with minor impact to force.

 

In fact, I find myself force-capping most fights if I don't use project since the 1.4 change to shadow strike. What I mean here is approximately every 40 seconds I have an extra 50 force to work with in fights now. Not to mention I'm using a Shadow's Respite build for balance (since expertise is pretty crap).

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/2bd917e7-75df-4c34-a4a3-72cc9d0563a7/overview#d=0,b=1

 

If you'll take a gander at this parser of a terror HM run a week or two ago, you can look at the numbers yourself. You will find that even with using project, I have managed to maintain a relatively force-neutral rotation and Saber Strike is not prominent at all in it. The "attempts" on the first two bosses are broken into 4 each, because of the MoX issue with Force Cloak.

 

Pulling 1550 on Writhing Horror, and 1697 on Dread Guard, I do not feel that I am hurting my DPS with it's addition; mainly because my % usage of saber strike has not risen by any substantial degree. I would go so far as to say that my Saber Strike usage is less then pre-1.4, when I was not using project.

 

If I can find the time, I will parse project vs project-less on the dummy for a better comparison for you and provide facts instead of conjecture.

 

EDIT: I went back to the parse to bring out some facts for any who don't want to check. In the first fight, using project 9 times, I was able to use Double Strike 49 times and used Saber Strike 16 times. (That is approx. one Saber Strike every 20 seconds.)

 

For the second fight, using project 11 times, I was able to use Double Strike 54 times and used Saber Strike 13 times. (That is approx. 1 Saber Strike every 31 seconds.)

 

The issue I run into is: With such a low count of using Saber Strike, even if I were to drop project for more double strikes, that is only two additional GCDs every 20 seconds in my rotation that I can replace (On the low end, realistically I can provide better force management then the first attempt.) Project is good, if you know what you are doing.

Edited November 1, 2012 by CpnWiggler

[Kitru]

The issue I run into is: With such a low count of using Saber Strike, even if I were to drop project for more double strikes, that is only two additional GCDs every 20 seconds in my rotation that I can replace (On the low end, realistically I can provide better force management then the first attempt.) Project is good, if you know what you are doing.

 

It's not a question of whether you can be effective when using Project. It's pretty obvious to anyone that you can be. The question is whether it is *optimal* to use Project, since it has such a high comparative cost and Double Strike, which doesn't, hits substantially harder. To get the most out of your DPS (and, honestly, simplify your priority and reduce the number of buttons you have to push/buffs you gotta watch), it's arguably better to just drop Project altogether. It doesn't provide a tangible and effective increase to your total DPS. Twin Disciplines + Upheaval really just cause Project to, at best, break even, rather than providing a real net benefit for the additional convolution and attention required. You can spend those 5 skill points elsewhere and not lose out at all, really.

 

Btw, I'm not entire sure you get all that much out of Shadow's Respite. Without Masked Assault, you're relying on Force Cloak to provide you with the buff, which, since you're also packing the standard CD, means you're getting a whalloping ~.33 Force/sec over the course of a slightly-longer-than-6 minute fight (1 Shadow's Respite right at the start, assuming you open out of stealth, 1 Force cloak right after that expires, and again after every 2 minutes adds up to 5 times). 120 Force over the course of a 6 minute fight means that you bought yourself a whole 5 extra DSs instead of Saber Strikes. Considering, at the low end, you should be dealing more than 540k damage (1500 DPS over 6 minute fight), I don't think that the extra 2.5 DS damage equivalents (~2.5k each) is really going to make all that big of a difference. Of course, Force Technique (~100 DPS total, so that you get ~6 DPS with Expertise) isn't really pulling its weight either. It's for this reason that I generally recommend Shadowy Veil. Neither Shadow's Respite or Expertise are really going to provide a particularly substantive increase to your DPS, but Shadowy Veil is gonna make you take noticeably less damage, which is always nice. It might not maximize your DPS, but it does ease the load off of your healers when you inevitably take stray damage.

[CpnWiggler]

It's not a question of whether you can be effective when using Project. It's pretty obvious to anyone that you can be. The question is whether it is *optimal* to use Project, since it has such a high comparative cost and Double Strike, which doesn't, hits substantially harder. To get the most out of your DPS (and, honestly, simplify your priority and reduce the number of buttons you have to push/buffs you gotta watch), it's arguably better to just drop Project altogether. It doesn't provide a tangible and effective increase to your total DPS. Twin Disciplines + Upheaval really just cause Project to, at best, break even, rather than providing a real net benefit for the additional convolution and attention required. You can spend those 5 skill points elsewhere and not lose out at all, really.

 

Welp, I just spent an hour typing my math out for you and I hit my "back" keybind. I will respond tomorrow when I'm not so sleepy

 

Btw, I'm not entire sure you get all that much out of Shadow's Respite. Without Masked Assault, you're relying on Force Cloak to provide you with the buff, which, since you're also packing the standard CD, means you're getting a whalloping ~.33 Force/sec over the course of a slightly-longer-than-6 minute fight (1 Shadow's Respite right at the start, assuming you open out of stealth, 1 Force cloak right after that expires, and again after every 2 minutes adds up to 5 times). 120 Force over the course of a 6 minute fight means that you bought yourself a whole 5 extra DSs instead of Saber Strikes. Considering, at the low end, you should be dealing more than 540k damage (1500 DPS over 6 minute fight), I don't think that the extra 2.5 DS damage equivalents (~2.5k each) is really going to make all that big of a difference. Of course, Force Technique (~100 DPS total, so that you get ~6 DPS with Expertise) isn't really pulling its weight either. It's for this reason that I generally recommend Shadowy Veil. Neither Shadow's Respite or Expertise are really going to provide a particularly substantive increase to your DPS, but Shadowy Veil is gonna make you take noticeably less damage, which is always nice. It might not maximize your DPS, but it does ease the load off of your healers when you inevitably take stray damage.

 

I fully agree with the last part. Shadowy Veil makes for a lover-ly defensive talent, and I think that the offensive v. defensive trade off is very much up to personal choice and raid dynamic. I stick with gearing towards DPS, some prefer a little more raid support.

 

In regards to Expertise v. Shadow's Respite:

Exp. adds approx 4-6 DPS

Shadow's Respite: (5 double strikes with no crit or misses = 10 dps added. 5 DS with full crit no misses = 36 DPS added.)

 

That's assuming 800 for a standard DS, which might be a little high, I need to double check. Also assuming an average of 1750 per crit, which seems within a fair margin of error. Assumes a GCD use of Saber Strike nets 900 damage, which is subtracted from DPS total. By using Shadow's Respite I feel I can add almost 40 DPS, and that is significant in my mind.