Obi-wan vs Revan

[Aurbere]

Now as for what I think - don't get me wrong, Obi-Wan is an exceptional jedi and all. His mastery of the soresu form is impressive, I admit. He is out of Revan's league though.

 

Do you mean that Revan would win?

Edited July 23, 2012 by Aurbere

[Deviss]

Do you have any proof to back up this point? Because Obi-Wan would destroy Revan.

 

Do you have any proof to back up this point? Because Revan would destroy Obi-Wan. See what I did there? I mean, your view is so narrow and limited and it just showes and proves how ignorant you are.

[Aurbere]

Do you have any proof to back up this point? Because Revan would destroy Obi-Wan. See what I did there? I mean, your view is so narrow and limited and it just showes and proves how ignorant you are.

 

I re-read your post and editied mine. I just wanted some clarification. You worded the end of your post weird(at least to me). No need to insult me.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Aurbere

[Deviss]

I re-read your post and editied mine. I just wanted some clarification. You worded the end of your post weird(at least to me). No need to insult me.

 

Noone is insulting you (unless you consider my last sentence as an insult? ). We are all adults here that are simply having a civilized discussion, right? Some snarky comments now and then can happen when two individuals are taking a part in debate and are having difference of opinion.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Deviss

[Aurbere]

Noone is insulting you (unless you consider my last sentence as an insult? ). We are all adults here and are having a civilized discussion here, right? Some snarky comments now and then can happen when two individuals are taking a part in debate and are having difference of opinion.

 

Well it' hard to get a point across in text, so the way you are saying something and the way someone hears it can be completely different.

 

You still haven't clarified your opinion on the subject though.

[ReiKai]

First off Bane's comments don't really hold much merit, seeing as he could only comment on what had happened, and not what would take place long after his reign as a dark lord.

 

However it was based on what Bane knew at the time and, in fact, still does hold merit even post Sid's order. Because honestly, "One of the greatest Sith" is always a subjective term since that could be "One" of "several Million Great Sith Lords" throughout history. We don't have or are given a comparitive list of all the "great" Sith. All it really means is that he is a name worth mentioning. After all, recall when Bane was first studying their lore.

 

When he read about a Sith Lord who destroyed a solar system, he thought it was just artistic liscence or hyperbole, that the Force isn't capable of such. And yet, reading "Tales of the Jedi", we know that such an event did happen when Naga Sadow used his power on an unstable red super giant to cause a reaction and make it go nova, thus destroying the entire solar system.

 

Second your spoiler about the Foundry is a bit off.

 

It's always speculative on who or what went after him. However since it is a 4man Flashpoint and there are 4 Classes with each its own Story, and the Trailer for "

" includes one of each class, so it does tend to suggest that Revan was meant to be confronted by all four Empire Story Classes, as it would be quite impossible to have 4 of the Same Person fighting Revan (you know, whole issue of Time and Relative dimensions in space).

 

As for the subject at hand, Obi-wan vs Revan I am not sure how it would end. I mean I could see Obi wearing Revan down over time till Revan made a mistake(much like he did to Anakin who was according to canon more powerful than Obi, and Revan). Or I could see Revan using powers that Obi-wan had never faced(force lightning to be exact, cause Obi only ever faced one person that used it, and he was out cold long before Dooku used it against Yoda).

 

Well Obi-Wan has seen Force Lightning before, just despite some claims, Dooku's isn't all that powerful. Anyway, the idea of Obi-Wan wearing down Revan is quite improbable given Revan's greater experience in combat, having fought in several wars, taken out the most skilled individuals in those wars (Mandalore the Ultimate, General Yusanis of the Echani, and I think even Cassus Fett). Plus there was in KotoR when his memory had been gone and he retrained as a Jedi and had to fight his way through the Star Forge Droids and Dark Jedi before defeating and returning Bastila to the Light, only to continue on and confront Darth Malak who was having his powers amplified by the Dark Side attuned Star Forge.

 

So if you wanted to be concerned with Stamina, I'd say Revan's got plenty. Also I will point out that, at the time, Anakin was not more powerful than Revan. The "idea" is that, as the Chosen One, Anakin was "supposed" to be the most powerful Jedi. However he never reached that level and his knowledge of the Force was severely lacking.

 

Dooku, who had very powerful Force Lightning used it on him in that same scene, but Obi-Wan easily deflected it with his Lightsaber and that is by long and far not the only time he faced such a power.

 

Correction. He had "Force Lightning". Nothing about Dooku's use would show it was very powerful. The fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin (later on) could block it with their lightsabers is proof of this. Darth Chratis in "Fatal Alliance" overloaded and destroyed Shigar's lightsaber, despite the fact he was blocking the attack, as his Force Lightning was stronger than Shigar's defenses and the lightsabers ability to process the energy.

 

So, I'd say it's easy to see that there are Sith more adept in using Force Lightning than Dooku. And Chratis wasn't a Dark Council member. And yet, as we know, Revan had easily Absorbed, amplified and discharged the Force Lightning of Darth Nyriss, who was a DC member at the time and, despite her withered appearance, was still more powerful than other DC members at the time and had both Scourge and Meetra Surik scrambling.

[Icebergy]

Who wins?

 

 

My vote goes to the Obi-man. The greatest practicioner of Soresu and he's pretty powerful with the force. Having the most powerful Force Push in the Jedi Order and a brilliant dude.

 

Obi-wan is one of my favorites, but citation needed on that most powerful force push thing.

 

I would say in a pure duel Obi-wan wins, but in a battle of force power Revan takes it.

[Rayla_Felana]

Did Revan ever master a lightsaber form? no he didn't, did he ever master either side of the Force? no he didn't, does he have any abilities that make him a better opponent than Vader? no not really, Vader could defeat pretty much any Jedi Order members, only Yoda, Obi-Wan and Windu could have beaten him, but Jedi masters like Shaak Ti, a master of multiple forms and known as one of the stealthiest and smartest duellists in the Order, just ran away from him.

 

If Obi-Wan can manage to defend against and defeat quite possibly the greatest Djem-So user of all time (according to Count Dooku, THE master of Makashi himself), a man who slaughtered PT Jedi wholesale in the temple, including Battle Master Cin Drallig, (a master of every single lightsaber form) and a master of Telekinesis and Force Choke, I'm quite sure that Obi-Wan could defeat Revan, handily.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Rayla_Felana]

Correction. He had "Force Lightning". Nothing about Dooku's use would show it was very powerful.

 

The novelization of Attack of the Clones would like a word with you.

[Aurbere]

Did Revan ever master a lightsaber form? no he didn't, did he ever master either side of the Force? no he didn't, does he have any abilities that make him a better opponent than Vader? no not really, Vader could defeat pretty much any Jedi Order members, only Yoda, Obi-Wan and Windu could have beaten him, but Jedi masters like Shaak Ti, a master of multiple forms and known as one of the stealthiest and smartest duellists in the Order, just ran away from him.

 

If Obi-Wan can manage to defend against and defeat quite possibly the greatest Djem-So user of all time (according to Count Dooku, THE master of Makashi himself), a man who slaughtered PT Jedi wholesale in the temple, including Battle Master Cin Drallig, (a master of every single lightsaber form) and a master of Telekinesis and Force Choke, I'm quite sure that Obi-Wan could defeat Revan, handily.

 

I pretty much said the same thing in my post, but you know how Revan fanboys are. It's even G-Canon that the PT Order is the Golden Age of Jedi.

[ReiKai]

I have long since debunked those arguments. Using "Character Statements" as your only evidence is the height of folly. Also, "Golden Age" doesn't mean "Most powerful and skilled". It just means the Jedi were prosperous. That's all.

[Rayla_Felana]

I have long since debunked those arguments. Using "Character Statements" as your only evidence is the height of folly. Also, "Golden Age" doesn't mean "Most powerful and skilled". It just means the Jedi were prosperous. That's all.

 

The fact you have zero evidence to refute those statements and the skills they themselves have displayed only back up said statements, I declare your argument a strawman.

[BrandonSM]

I have long since debunked those arguments. Using "Character Statements" as your only evidence is the height of folly. Also, "Golden Age" doesn't mean "Most powerful and skilled". It just means the Jedi were prosperous. That's all.

 

Considering the Prequel Era had: The Chosen One, Mace Windu, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto and, Plo Koon. They had more but those guys right there are enough to make it the most powerful the Order ahs ever been.

 

 

Kit Fisto is the greatest master of Shii-Chi

Mace Windu mastered all 7 forms and is the greatest user of Vapaad

Yoda is Yoda

The Chosen One

Obi-Wan the greatest user of Soresu

Plo Koon: A Powerful Jedi Knight who knew some extreme force Abilities

 

Thats just to say a few.

 

 

Explain how Revan's JO is better.

[ReiKai]

Again, you seem to have misunderstood. "Character Statements" are not evidence. There isn't any need to providence evidence Against a Character Statement, because they cannot be taken as Canon Fact to begin with. The fact that most of the arguments for Prequal Era are dependent upon those statements is the reason why it fails so completely.

 

None of the characters in the PT Era are "The Greatest Ever". They have only ever been noted as "the best of their chosen field during that Era". That's it is. It has never meant anything but that. I have seen the Quotes, and many of which are from Characters referring to other Characters; IE, Mace speaking of Obi-Wan's skill in comparison to his own. These are no canon facts, there are simply Opinions offered up from one Character to another based on their Personal experience, not the collective knowledge and history of the entire Jedi Order since the beginning.

 

That is what those fighting for PT era do not understand or simply refuse to understand. No one is contesting that they aren't skilled combatants. However, they are far from being the "greatest and most powerful".

 

The PT Era as we know it, may be considered from the time around Yoda's joining some eight centuries earlier up until the end of the Clone Wars. A century or two prior to that is considered part of the Old Republic. The Old Republic covers everything from Bane's time with the end of the Brotherhood of Darkness, all the way back more than 5000yrs to the Great Hyperspace War. In comparison, the Old Republic era covers a great deal more than the Prequal Trilogy era.

[BrandonSM]

Again, you seem to have misunderstood. "Character Statements" are not evidence. There isn't any need to providence evidence Against a Character Statement, because they cannot be taken as Canon Fact to begin with. The fact that most of the arguments for Prequal Era are dependent upon those statements is the reason why it fails so completely.

 

None of the characters in the PT Era are "The Greatest Ever". They have only ever been noted as "the best of their chosen field during that Era". That's it is. It has never meant anything but that. I have seen the Quotes, and many of which are from Characters referring to other Characters; IE, Mace speaking of Obi-Wan's skill in comparison to his own. These are no canon facts, there are simply Opinions offered up from one Character to another based on their Personal experience, not the collective knowledge and history of the entire Jedi Order since the beginning.

 

That is what those fighting for PT era do not understand or simply refuse to understand. No one is contesting that they aren't skilled combatants. However, they are far from being the "greatest and most powerful".

 

The PT Era as we know it, may be considered from the time around Yoda's joining some eight centuries earlier up until the end of the Clone Wars. A century or two prior to that is considered part of the Old Republic. The Old Republic covers everything from Bane's time with the end of the Brotherhood of Darkness, all the way back more than 5000yrs to the Great Hyperspace War. In comparison, the Old Republic era covers a great deal more than the Prequal Trilogy era.

 

Its G-Canon PT JO is the Golden Age.

 

Its Canon, meaning written by an author, that Kit Fisto is the greatest User of Shii-Cho.

 

Its canon from GL himself that Windu is the greatest practicioner of his Form from the ROTS Commentary and a little bit from AOTC.

And was it not you who was using Darth Bane's statements to back his arguement for Revan?

[ReiKai]

Its G-Canon PT JO is the Golden Age.

 

Its Canon, meaning written by an author, that Kit Fisto is the greatest User of Shii-Cho.

 

Its canon from GL himself that Windu is the greatest practicioner of his Form from the ROTS Commentary and a little bit from AOTC.

And was it not you who was using Darth Bane's statements to back his arguement for Revan?

 

Again, Golden Age =/= Strongest Jedi Ever

"Kit Fisto is the greatest User of Shii-Cho" of that era. I've seen the quotes. They are Suggestive, not Factual. And Mace is the only practitioner of a style he invented. Meaningless statement.

 

As for referencing Bane. Indeed I did. However the statement is a General one. He did not say "Revan was the Most Powerful Sith to Ever Exist." It only stated that he was One of the Greats. Not The greatest. As such, it is not incorrect nor can it be taken out of context. As I said earlier, it could very well mean "One" of "a Million" great sith lords. Since there is no actual number or List of all "The greats", it is a General statement.

[Aurbere]

Again, Golden Age =/= Strongest Jedi Ever

"Kit Fisto is the greatest User of Shii-Cho" of that era. I've seen the quotes. They are Suggestive, not Factual. And Mace is the only practitioner of a style he invented. Meaningless statement.

 

As for referencing Bane. Indeed I did. However the statement is a General one. He did not say "Revan was the Most Powerful Sith to Ever Exist." It only stated that he was One of the Greats. Not The greatest. As such, it is not incorrect nor can it be taken out of context. As I said earlier, it could very well mean "One" of "a Million" great sith lords. Since there is no actual number or List of all "The greats", it is a General statement.

 

It is true that you can't take character statements as fact. However, statements by very influencial and well respected members of the Jedi Order carry alot of weight. Example: Mace saying Obi-Wan is the Master of Soresu. Mace Windu is the second most respected member of the Order by the entire Republic. His word carries weight. But you will say that it is still a statement and not fact. True, it is not. But Mace Windu is a master of the lightsaber so when he says someone is the best at their form, believe him. If Bruce Lee said that someone was the best at their Karate style, you would believe him. Because Mr. Lee is awesome and is still very well respected.

 

My point is that character statements are not fact, but when someone who is a very powerful master of the Order says that another Jedi is the best at their form, it is a credible statement that should be believed. Disagree if you like, we can have a fine debate over this.

[ReiKai]

However, the 'weight' is only carried within the context and belief from Character to Character, and holds no weight in an actual Debate. Also, Mace's statement about Obi-Wan's mastery was, again, a General one and did not state that he was "The greatest master of Soresu that the Jedi Order had ever seen." Only that he had mastered the classic form of Soresu. More than the Character Statements themselves is a number of people taking them out of context.

 

The same went for when Obi-Wan mentions that Shaak-Ti is the most cunning Jedi he had ever met. Some tried to state that meant she was THE Most cunning Jedi ever. This is, of course, false. As Obi-Wan was only commenting on his own experience pertaining to Jedi he has personally met, and is not made concerning the Order's history as a whole.

 

As for concerns of popularity among Characters and the Populace, that doesn't mean anything really. Especially given the majority of the Republic wouldn't even remember the name of a Jedi from 50yrs ago unless he was still alive and doing things publicly. This I actually liked as a question in SWTOR playing on Republic side is you get told a story about the Mando Wars and Revan and one of your responses is "Who's Revan?" Which would infer that people three centuries later had forgotten about him.

 

Though that is just a Personal choice given to the player, it does reflect upon the knowledge of the populace as a whole. If it's not something that affects their daily lives, then they won't care to remember it. The only things they tend to remember for a long time about the Jedi is when one of them goes back and tears the crap out of the Republic. Most tend to not care about Jedi History (aside from Jedi themselves) so who their "favorite" would be would be only one who'd be alive in the Order at the time.

[Aurbere]

However, the 'weight' is only carried within the context and belief from Character to Character, and holds no weight in an actual Debate. Also, Mace's statement about Obi-Wan's mastery was, again, a General one and did not state that he was "The greatest master of Soresu that the Jedi Order had ever seen." Only that he had mastered the classic form of Soresu. More than the Character Statements themselves is a number of people taking them out of context.

 

I understand your point, but I don't think you understand mine. I agree that a statement cannot be considered fact. What my intended point was that Mace's statement is true because it is backed up by Obi-Wans battles. Obi-Wan has only been defeated by Dooku in battle and that is because Dooku is the master of Makashi(which is the opposite of Soresu). Dooku's mastery of Makashi is backed up countless times with him beating Obi-Wan, Anakin, Mace Windu, and being able to duk it out with Yoda.

 

The same went for when Obi-Wan mentions that Shaak-Ti is the most cunning Jedi he had ever met. Some tried to state that meant she was THE Most cunning Jedi ever. This is, of course, false. As Obi-Wan was only commenting on his own experience pertaining to Jedi he has personally met, and is not made concerning the Order's history as a whole.

 

I agree with this point. I do believe that Shaak Ti is very powerful and cunning, but she is not the most cunning Jedi. However, Obi-Wans statement is backed up by many other masters of the Order.

 

As for concerns of popularity among Characters and the Populace, that doesn't mean anything really. Especially given the majority of the Republic wouldn't even remember the name of a Jedi from 50yrs ago unless he was still alive and doing things publicly. This I actually liked as a question in SWTOR playing on Republic side is you get told a story about the Mando Wars and Revan and one of your responses is "Who's Revan?" Which would infer that people three centuries later had forgotten about him.

 

We can compare Mace Windu's popularity to Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee is still respected by many people, same in SW. Mace Windu was a Jedi respected by many people in the Republic, but after the Imperial propaganda slandered him he lost much respect. Good thing that never happened to Lee.

 

Though that is just a Personal choice given to the player, it does reflect upon the knowledge of the populace as a whole. If it's not something that affects their daily lives, then they won't care to remember it. The only things they tend to remember for a long time about the Jedi is when one of them goes back and tears the crap out of the Republic. Most tend to not care about Jedi History (aside from Jedi themselves) so who their "favorite" would be would be only one who'd be alive in the Order at the time.

 

Answers in red.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Aurbere

[Jediaidertwo]

Obi wan cuz Lucas probably doesn't even know who Revan is - nor does he care for that matter.

 

Well actually they were gonna bring him into the clone wars series 5 i think along with Bane, as a dark force to twist Anakin to evil. But good call Regardless.

 

 

 

 

[MaceTowani]

I want everyone to note that ReiKai is now the only lone Revan crusader left on these forums. Took some years but we finally cut them all down.

[Rayla_Felana]

I want everyone to note that ReiKai is now the only lone Revan crusader left on these forums. Took some years but we finally cut them all down.

 

Two there are, no more, no less, a master and an apprentice.

 

The other one is further back, don't worry, you'll spot em right away.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Aurbere]

I want everyone to note that ReiKai is now the only lone Revan crusader left on these forums. Took some years but we finally cut them all down.

 

Victory! Not like we need Revan crusaders anyway.

[Selenial]

Let me explain this to you Revan fanboys. Revan could never hold his own against any PT era Jedi. Revan would be out-dueled by any of the great masters of that order. Jedi like Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan and Plo Koon could duel circles around him. The Jedi Order was at its peak during the PT. They had thousands of years of expanding their knowledge of the Force as well as creating new and improved Lightsaber combat styles. Revan is an over-rated character who could never hold a candle to any of the Jedi of the PT. Yoda would sweep him aside like he was nothing. Mace Windu wouldn't even need to try to fight him. Obi-Wan could duel Revan for days just toying with him. Even some of the relatively unknown Masters like Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Cin Drallig and and the like could easily defat Revan. The PT era Order is the greatest Order as stated by GL. You could say that the NJO is better, but their only saving grace is Luke Skywalker. The rest would defeated by Mace and the rest of the great Masters.

Even the JK from TOR would beat Revan. How do I know? The JK beat the Emperor(or whatever you fight at the end) when Revan couldn't. There is nothing to prove that Revan could beat Obi-Wan.

 

Now that that is settled. Let's look at the fight itself. Obi-Wan could beat Revan because of the simple fact that Obi-Wan is the Master of Soresu. Soresu is all about defensive fighting and taking advantage of weaknesses with deadly efficiency. Look at the fight with Grievous. Not many Jedi could find the whole in Grievous' offensive, but Obi-Wan did and managed to take off two of Grievous' hands. Obi-Wan would do the same to Revan, only in a much shorter time.

 

Bottom line: Obi-Wan wins without breaking a sweat.

 

 

Chew on that fanboys:D

 

The ignorance of some people. And its a shame, you presented it in a nice way....

Darth Traya herself stated that Jedi in the KoToR era couldn't hold a lightsaber to any of the ancient Sith lords or Jedi masters. Hence just because the Jedi in the KoToR era had time to expand their knowledge, it doesn't mean they are more powerful. Thats like saying Luminara Unduli would own Exar Kun, or Naga Sadow, simply because she was in the PT era and had expanded her knowledge more thanks to the modern Jedi Archives and Jedi teachings.

[LordQordisz]

Obi Wans peak level can be considered to be when he fought Anakin, where, mind you, he was on the defensive for the 'vast' majority of the entire fight, and had near-death situations up to the end. If not for a saving grace, last moment idioticy stunt by anakin where that one decided to just 'screw it all', underestimate Obi Wan, overestimate himself, and make a stupid move, Obi Wan wouldn't have survived (and if you take a look at the fight, that ones actually obvious). .

 

I had to laugh at the bold part because Obi-Wan is a master of Soresu. I think we all know this. haha

 

Regarding the fight between Kenobi and Anakin before Obi-Wan physically crippled him there was a point earlier in the fight when he could have taken Anakin out.

 

"He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand. Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free. Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. 'The flaw of power is arrogance.' 'You hesitate,' Anakin said. 'The flaw of compassion-' 'It's not compassion,' Obi-Wan said sadly. 'It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were.' He sighed. 'It's regret for the man you should have been.'" There, you see? That's just one instance even though you think Anakin dominated the fight because Obi-Wan, a master of Soresu which is a defensive style, was on the defense.

 

I think what some might perceive as luck in Kenobi may have something to do with his fighting style. He is strong in the Force, not nearly as strong as some others, but he does imo fight to his potential. Remember how in the movie he and Anakin's Force Push cancelled each other out. In Jedi vs. Sith it is said of a master of Soresu, which Mace said Kenobi was ["'I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form - or the master of the classic form?... not a master. The master,' Mace had said."], "True masters of Form lll have long been considered invincible; although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form lll masters have ever been defeated." It is a style that "maximizes defensive protection".

 

During that fight I'm of the opinion that it was Kenobi who was directing it though there were instances where Anakin got to him and vice versa as I've already shown. Here are a few quotes to that point:

 

"In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way."

 

"Obi-Wan let go. Of everything....And their lightsabers. Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders."

 

"Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it. It was a place, he decided, they should reach together."

 

Also in the movie Kenobi was so bad azz he told Anakin it was over. He said back down or you're done. And he finished him.

Edited July 25, 2012 by LordQordisz