Sages and Sorcerers need more love and buff:)

[Roiz]

Playing a sage is so attractive to the enemy team dps so they focus on you and gather in packs of 3 and even 4 hunters and kill you in seconds. Even if they are busy mashing another person a rage guardian or sniper as soon as they see a sage they immediately run to you, the problem is not will sage survive but who kill the sage first.

 

I played 3 classes at 50 pvp and 7 classes at 40+ pvp, but never seen a class worse than a sage. Comon Bioware fix sage to be playable at rated. Sages dies so often, When i was playing my PT and mara i killed so many sages so cannot count their numbers and i do not remember even a single example when i was killed by a sage on my PT.

 

The main sage problem is VERY VERY BAD SURVIVABILITY and not even one defensive ability. Sage has the worst armor, die like a bug and have no damage reduction shields. Absorb bubble has very big problem it requires GCD to cast, if you cast bubble you loose dps, at least BW can move bubble off GCD like all other defensive abilities of all other classes. Every other class has some type of damage reduction shield and you can use it without spending GCD for its activation.

 

Another problem is long cast times, no matter is sage healer or dps it has to stay and cast, heals are on 2.5 sec cast times, the main dps attack is 3 sec channeled. Everyone can interrupt with no problems. How sage suppose to kite a PT if the majority of sage abilities requires cast times and stay with no move but PT can do all its ranged attacks on the move.

 

Sages needs more love from Bioware and developers and some buff, so at least will be viable at rated. No one wants sages dps at rated the only way to enter a rated team is to make silly eyes like a cat from a Shrek movie and ask "please, please let me in".

 

First sage need better passive damage mitigation, absorb bubble needs an option to be spend off GCD and no force cost.

 

The second sage need more instant abilities and fast cast times. All sage abilities what requires more than 1.5 sec cast times needs to be reduced to 1.5 sec. It is fine to have deliverance on 1.5 sec cast time instead of 3 sec.

 

Something should be done with telekinetic three, having the whole three abilities on long casts is not acceptable for pvp for squishy light armored class. It is fine to have disturbance as a instant cast or the ability to cast it on the move.

 

Concerning to balance three it simply needs more burst, less mana consumption and also need a instant ranged auto attack, cause after putting your dots you have to stay and start channeling TT throw for 3 sec. The best way for balance is to make project spammable with no CD and reduce its force consumption.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Roiz

[Dmasterr]

Sages are quite good actually, both healers and dps.

 

You just need to play it properly.

[Roiz]

Sages are quite good actually, both healers and dps.

 

You just need to play it properly.

You are kidding me, no burst, very squishy, bad mobility, long cast times, really strong class.

[Dmasterr]

You are kidding me, no burst, very squishy, bad mobility, long cast times, really strong class.

 

I kid you not. Quite a few 2400+ rated dps sorcs and healers.... and they are not even pro-level ... yet. I've played with them, and against them.

 

The only reason the #1 team in Europe does not run a sorc in its main team setup (we do when we use replacements)... is because the best dps sorc in the world is unnavaiable, he has to play as the best concealment operative in the world.

 

[warultima]

You are kidding me, no burst, very squishy, bad mobility, long cast times, really strong class.

 

Some people enjoy a good team and being carried. Well carried isnt exactly the right term. To fully utilize sorc/sage's utility they need at very least 2nd player there with them to be useful. e.g Pocket Tank or Pocket Heal.

 

Or run 2 sorcs and focusing CC 1 enemy and zerg down the other which is a often used tactics by 2 dps sorcs. 2 dps sorc run to a node guarded by 2. Whirlwind, CC Break, Whriwind Enemy 1 is now out of the fight for the next 8 seconds, kill the free enemy. Also full dps sorc can still "sustain" some heals due to how their resource work.

 

I can crap on any sorc 1v1 or make them run like a noob and possibly abandon objective, 2 sorcs cycling CC is completely different story.

 

Sorcs are more of a team support class.

Edited July 18, 2012 by warultima

[Darth_Philar]

Sorcerer healers for certain need some major assistance right now.

 

My petition is that they undo the poorly thought out mechanic changes from 1.2, actually fix the double bending bug, and then revert the compensating nerfs from 1.3.

 

That is the only way to actually fix the class, instead of bandaid it.

[Roiz]

Sorcerer healers for certain need some major assistance right now.

 

My petition is that they undo the poorly thought out mechanic changes from 1.2, actually fix the double bending bug, and then revert the compensating nerfs from 1.3.

 

That is the only way to actually fix the class, instead of bandaid it.

 

Sorcs before 1.2 were better, dunno why they nerf this class. Sages need some options to kite Powertech. Currently Sage vs PT is a one goal game.

 

To be able to kite a PT sages need to be able to cast Telekinetic throw on the move - this is only one way to stay from PT more than 10 meters distance. Another option to improve sage kiting is to give them an ability to make sage immune for roots and slow for 10 seconds on low cooldown like 45 sec, it would be nice this ability will be off GCD.

[Dmasterr]

Sorcs before 1.2 were better, dunno why they nerf this class. Sages need some options to kite Powertech. Currently Sage vs PT is a one goal game.

 

To be able to kite a PT sages need to be able to cast Telekinetic throw on the move - this is only one way to stay from PT more than 10 meters distance. Another option to improve sage kiting is to give them an ability to make sage immune for roots and slow for 10 seconds on low cooldown like 45 sec, it would be nice this ability will be off GCD.

 

mmm-no, listen :

 

If any line of sight is available the only thing that is difficult (but not impossible) to beat in 1v1 as a DPS sorc, is tank assassins in dps gear.

 

Please learn to play, it doesn't have to be sorc... learn to play any class. Then maybe you would not make such ridiculous requests.

[Roiz]

mmm-no, listen :

 

If any line of sight is available the only thing that is difficult (but not impossible) to beat in 1v1 as a DPS sorc, is tank assassins in dps gear.

 

Please learn to play, it doesn't have to be sorc... learn to play any class. Then maybe you would not make such ridiculous requests.

Look in WZ and RWZ you need to kill and heal fast, hiding all the time in the corners is just silly for the whole team.

This tactic work only against snipers, every class who has instant attacks on the move can easily chase a sage.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Roiz

[PloGreen]

Its not a class for noobs, basically. Very few people play sorc at top level, but it doesnt mean the class is terrible. It just means the class has a higher skill cap.

 

Its an unforgiving class, but in the right hands its a very potent pressuredamage/dot/utility/support class ( i play hybrid myself), im not just pressuring and killing players im looking after my own healers, peeling when i need to shielding them when i need to. I think people expect massive burst because they wear cloth but the reality is this class is not like any particular class in an mmo - it has elements of disc priest/ele shaman/warlocks. In essence its a hybrid class with good control and off heals so pointless comparing damage output to pure dps classes. Sorc/sage are very good against healers, a major pain in the *** actualy. They bring alot to their team, the general consensus is they are wasted slot but how many players actually play a sage at top level? How many of the sages that complain play competitive pvp at 2k rating and are fully geared? How many of the people that say sorc/sages are basing this opinion on actually playing one at that level? More than likely none.

 

I have one issue with sages and that is that full madness has force regen/management issues, thats about it really - we dont need a defensive cooldown, we dont need more damage, we dont need wrath on proc. What would be useful is rearranging some of the talents from one tree to another.

[Dmasterr]

This tactic work only against snipers, every class who has instant attacks on the move can easily chase a sage.

 

I have the privilege of playing with some of the best players this game has ever seen. I have dueled them, and i made that statement regarding sorcerers performance based on that experience.

 

But if you would rather say that the #1 team EU are bad players, than think of the possibility that you are just bad? well then that is your choice.

 

*edit* to reply to your edit:

Look in WZ and RWZ you need to kill and heal fast, hiding all the time in the corners is just silly for the whole team.

 

There are quite a few dps sorcs and healers at 2400+ rating.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Roiz]

I have the privilege of playing with some of the best players this game has ever seen. I have dueled them, and i made that statement regarding sorcerers performance based on that experience.

 

But if you would rather say that the #1 team EU are bad players, than think of the possibility that you are just bad? well then that is your choice.

*edit* to reply to your edit:

There are quite a few dps sorcs and healers at 2400+ rating.

With your words you confirmed that sages are crap as a class. It is your words that there is no sages/sorcs in top#1 rated team in Europe, it is also your words that very few sages/sorcs play at high level.

[Dmasterr]

With your words you confirmed that sages are crap as a class. It is your words that there is no sages/sorcs in top#1 rated team in Europe, it is also your words that very few sages/sorcs play at high level.

 

Quite a few=/= very few. And i have seen them play, ... i was not particularly impressed by their skill and yet they still have that rating.

 

And the reason there are no sorcs in the #1 team EU ,when we do not use replacements, is because we want the best of the best, players in term of skill, and the best of the best dps sorc, is busy playing the concealment operative in that team.

 

Sages are a great class, same with concealment operatives. And i think those 2 classes (spec) are the best designed in the game, because they are the most punishing when a player makes mistakes.

 

Steep skill curve is not a class problem, its a player problem.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Dmasterr

[iphobia]

Why do you even reply to a guy who claims in every single one of his posts that:

- He has 2400+ rating (still doesn't mean he is right + rating =|= skill)

- He is #1 in EU (still doesn't mean he is right + no proof for it)

- He is #1 in the world (still doesn't mean he is right + no proof for it)

- He is the best conc Ops in the world (still doesn't mean he is right + no proof for it)

- He is the best dps Sorc in the world (still doesn't mean he is right + no proof for it)

- People just need to L2P (still doesn't mean he is right + no proof for it)

 

If you see a yellow text, ignore it, problem solved, you will miss no valid arguments if you do so.

 

 

Sorc defense is close to non existent. We either need some passive reduction or as any other class also has, defensive cooldowns.

 

With a Madness-tree, the duration of DoT's should be set to 9s while the overall damage stays the same.

 

With the Lightning tree, either Shock should also be able to proc instant Chain Lightning or we should be able to cast Lightning Bolt on the move (lower it's damage so it doesn't get op, it's only used to rack up burst proccs anyway).

 

Dark Infusion should get reworked so with Force Bending it gets instant, but heals for 50% less (~2.5k crits with WH).

Edited July 18, 2012 by iphobia

[L-RANDLE]

Viable melee attacks (PLEASE UNLOCK TUMULT BW!!!!), DFCD, and a taunt/push would be nice. Nothing too overpowering, but seriously "range" is a joke in this game, so let me use my glowstick and either give force wave a larger knockback radius or give me a force push like my tank friends to keep that "range".

[Roiz]

Quite a few=/= very few. And i have seen them play, ... i was not particularly impressed by their skill and yet they still have that rating.

 

And the reason there are no sorcs in the #1 team EU ,when we do not use replacements, is because we want the best of the best, players in term of skill, and the best of the best dps sorc, is busy playing the concealment operative in that team.

 

Sages are a great class, same with concealment operatives. And i think those 2 classes (spec) are the best designed in the game, because they are the most punishing when a player makes mistakes.

 

Steep skill curve is not a class problem, its a player problem.

 

It is a class problem. The majority of players choose OP as healers and PT and Mara as DPS, because people tried these classes and decided that they can achieve better results with classes above.

 

Let's compare PT pyro and Sage Balance mechanics.

 

1. MOBILITY

As a PT pyro you have all ranged attacks as instant, you can do damage on the move.

As a Balance sage you have to root your self for 3 sec to do a descent damage. Sage has limited amount of instant cast attacks, but the main rotation is to use TT throw and root your self.

 

2. BURST

PT has very high burst, most attacks ignore armor or have very high armor penetration.

Sage has no burst, only two attacks ignore armor.

 

3. ATTRITION

In long fight with proper rotation and use of vent heat PT doesn't have overheating problem, PT has no troubles overlast any classes in long fights.

Balance Sage has no options for immediate force regen, rorce is a serious issue. The only way to improve force consumption is to limit the use of instant and dot abilities and stay channeling with no move.

 

4. USABILITY

PT is very easy to play, very few buttons, very macros friendly. Very difficult to make a mistake by playing a PT.

Sage has complex management, very difficult at creating useful macros for sage, complicated management, easy to get player mistakes.

 

5. UTILITY

PT can taunt reducing the total damage output of the whole enemy team. It is very easy to put taunts on the macros to automatically taunt then taunt are right off cooldown. Also PT can pull targets - this is amazing utility at stopping ball carriers, and catching healers.

 

Sage has almost no utility except friendly pull.

 

6 CONTROL

The stun is the same for sage and PT. Sage has only one advantage force lift, but PT have spammable slow which is the part of the main dps rotation. Sage has slow on cooldown and it is not the part of the rotation.

 

Summary PT is by far the winner in 5 categories and almost the same in the last one.

[Dmasterr]

Dark Infusion should get reworked so with Force Bending it gets instant, but heals for 50% less (~2.5k crits with WH).

 

Different classes are different, if you enjoy another class play style why not reroll to it, instead of asking to morph your current class into another one. You like operative healer design better, then reroll it.

 

Oh and p.s. There is no proof good enough for "forum ppl" and there never will be, even when i was in wow and they saw me playing live and winning rank1 or tournaments. etc. They still held on to the idea that it was the game holding them down to whatever rating they were.

 

But that is ok, i am more than content to have other pro players acknowledge my skill, over random ppl.

 

That's about it, have a nice day.

[Dmasterr]

It is a class problem. The majority of players choose OP as healers and PT and Mara as DPS, because people tried these classes and decided that they can achieve better results with classes above.

 

Let's compare PT pyro and Sage Balance mechanics.

 

1. MOBILITY

As a PT pyro you have all ranged attacks as instant, you can do damage on the move.

As a Balance sage you have to root your self for 3 sec to do a descent damage. Sage has limited amount of instant cast attacks, but the main rotation is to use TT throw and root your self.

You don't need to use non-instants. I would rather heal and kite than use cast spells when i have ppl on me.

 

2. BURST

PT has very high burst, most attacks ignore armor or have very high armor penetration.

Sage has no burst, only two attacks ignore armor.

You have heals and better cc /mobility

 

3. ATTRITION

In long fight with proper rotation and use of vent heat PT doesn't have overheating problem, PT has no troubles overlast any classes in long fights.

Balance Sage has no options for immediate force regen, rorce is a serious issue. The only way to improve force consumption is to limit the use of instant and dot abilities and stay channeling with no move.

 

I don't play madness sorc, i play madness /lightning hybrid. Not because madness is not good (the other 2400rated sorcs are full madness), but because the hybrid is better, imo. I have absolutely no issues with force management, it is impossible to run me out of force, unless u force me to heal for extended amount of time.

 

4. USABILITY

PT is very easy to play, very few buttons, very macros friendly. Very difficult to make a mistake by playing a PT.

Sage has complex management, very difficult at creating useful macros for sage, complicated management, easy to get player mistakes.

 

I don't use macros in swtor, the game is ridiculously simple enough. And yes sage is more complex to play, with positioning, offheals, cc , kiting etc. And the point is? The class is clearly capable of great things.

 

5. UTILITY

PT can taunt reducing the total damage output of the whole enemy team. It is very easy to put taunts on the macros to automatically taunt then taunt are right off cooldown. Also PT can pull targets - this is amazing utility at stopping ball carriers, and catching healers.

 

Macroing taunt to be usable on cooldown is incredibly bad play. You need to use them to relieve pressure on your team at the right time, using them without thought is terribad.

 

Sage has almost no utility except friendly pull.

 

I disagree, i also have root on knockback, instant 30 yard cc, and blind on bubble to relieve pressure on any target from melee pain train and off-heal capability.

6 CONTROL

The stun is the same for sage and PT. Sage has only one advantage force lift, but PT have spammable slow which is the part of the main dps rotation. Sage has slow on cooldown and it is not the part of the rotation.

 

If you think pyro has better battlefield control than sorcs, i want what you are smoking man.

 

Summary PT is by far the winner in 5 categories and almost the same in the last one.

 

PT is a front line class, sorcs are not. 1v1 with line of sight, properly played sorc, wins 100% of the time. In group situation *** are u doing so ahead of your team that u have a PT within 10 yards on you? Even if you position yourself in hutball for pulls, you can knockback him in the pit.

 

Powertechs have a very mild skill curve, and that is why people think is a much better class. It is more forgiving of player mistakes.

 

If you can not handle playing a difficult class , reroll. Do not try to take away the joy of people who enjoy a steep skill curve.

 

The Class is capable.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Evil_Santa]

It is a class problem. The majority of players choose OP as healers and PT and Mara as DPS, because people tried these classes and decided that they can achieve better results with classes above.

 

Let's compare PT pyro and Sage Balance mechanics.

 

1. MOBILITY

As a PT pyro you have all ranged attacks as instant, you can do damage on the move.

As a Balance sage you have to root your self for 3 sec to do a descent damage. Sage has limited amount of instant cast attacks, but the main rotation is to use TT throw and root your self.

 

2. BURST

PT has very high burst, most attacks ignore armor or have very high armor penetration.

Sage has no burst, only two attacks ignore armor.

 

3. ATTRITION

In long fight with proper rotation and use of vent heat PT doesn't have overheating problem, PT has no troubles overlast any classes in long fights.

Balance Sage has no options for immediate force regen, rorce is a serious issue. The only way to improve force consumption is to limit the use of instant and dot abilities and stay channeling with no move.

 

4. USABILITY

PT is very easy to play, very few buttons, very macros friendly. Very difficult to make a mistake by playing a PT.

Sage has complex management, very difficult at creating useful macros for sage, complicated management, easy to get player mistakes.

 

5. UTILITY

PT can taunt reducing the total damage output of the whole enemy team. It is very easy to put taunts on the macros to automatically taunt then taunt are right off cooldown. Also PT can pull targets - this is amazing utility at stopping ball carriers, and catching healers.

 

Sage has almost no utility except friendly pull.

 

6 CONTROL

The stun is the same for sage and PT. Sage has only one advantage force lift, but PT have spammable slow which is the part of the main dps rotation. Sage has slow on cooldown and it is not the part of the rotation.

 

Summary PT is by far the winner in 5 categories and almost the same in the last one.

 

You're limiting yourself to full Balance/Madness, and i'll agree - that tree sucks. Personally i run 2/21/18.

[LarryRow]

#1 team EU

 

I can't wait until the cross-server warzones you guys have makes it across the pond to the States.

 

Do you really believe this stuff or do you just like getting a rise out of people?

 

Also, noticed you changed your sig to make your snarky comments about the best Sage and the best Operative slightly less obvious.

[Dmasterr]

Do you really believe this stuff ?

 

Its not like i take it on faith.

[Tyranux]

I can't wait until the cross-server warzones you guys have makes it across the pond to the States.

 

Do you really believe this stuff or do you just like getting a rise out of people?

 

Also, noticed you changed your sig to make your snarky comments about the best Sage and the best Operative slightly less obvious.

 

As of right now, any person in this game can claim that they are the best of a class or in the best ranked team. This guy is a troll, nothing more and nothing less. There is NO true ranking system in this game as of yet and until there is, everything the fool says is nothing more then hot air.

[CRNphg]

Maybe they should rework static barrier, remove blinding flash from light tree. Make the damage protection count purely for ranged attacks and have it stun, 2s break on damage,(or root) people doing a close range attack on the sorcerer.

[SinDIY]

I heal full time as a sorc on The Fatman, and honestly, I think the healing is perfectly fine. The survivablity is right where it needs to be; players need to use their environments properly and the resources we have (though some think it is not enough) to evade and or escape player aggro. Granted LOSing is not always an easy thing to do on some maps, it is still something every healer should try and take advantage of. Same goes for positioning, the two really go hand in hand... Put yourself into a spot where you are not immediately noticeable, I know that's nice in theory, but anything helps.

 

you just have to accept the fact that you're going to get steamrolled playing a healer, especially with no guards, and especially if you're out of position to heal teammates and need to run in to the thick of damage to heal; heal as much as you can, get burned down, re-spawn, and continue healing. Healers are simply not supposed to be able to handle burst damage once defensive tools go down, even if its one or two players beating on you.

 

I consistently get 300-400k healing in nearly all WZ's I enter, that may not be much, but it certainly can change things in a WZ. In an especially good match (just a couple nights ago in Void Star), I healed a little over 700k with no guard... LoSing/positioning was the deciding factor in obtaining those numbers.

 

Sorcs and sages may not be mobile heals, but we still do a damn good job.

[AdamLKvist]

I heal full time as a sorc on The Fatman, and honestly, I think the healing is perfectly fine. The survivablity is right where it needs to be; players need to use their environments properly and the resources we have (though some think it is not enough) to evade and or escape player aggro. Granted LOSing is not always an easy thing to do on some maps, it is still something every healer should try and take advantage of. Same goes for positioning, the two really go hand in hand... Put yourself into a spot where you are not immediately noticeable, I know that's nice in theory, but anything helps.

 

you just have to accept the fact that you're going to get steamrolled playing a healer, especially with no guards, and especially if you're out of position to heal teammates and need to run in to the thick of damage to heal; heal as much as you can, get burned down, re-spawn, and continue healing. Healers are simply not supposed to be able to handle burst damage once defensive tools go down, even if its one or two players beating on you.

 

I consistently get 300-400k healing in nearly all WZ's I enter, that may not be much, but it certainly can change things in a WZ. In an especially good match (just a couple nights ago in Void Star), I healed a little over 700k with no guard... LoSing/positioning was the deciding factor in obtaining those numbers.

 

Sorcs and sages may not be mobile heals, but we still do a damn good job.

 

Its appearent your perspective is solely based on normal warzones where you don't have a 100% commited marauder/pt going for you 100% of the time.

 

While I appreciate your attempt of constructive feedback this is not applicable in reality versus opponents that are even slightly above average.