Executive Producer Rich Vogel Bails on TOR

[Fornix]

The difference between GW2 and a monthly subscription MMO, is the player will forgive bugs, missing feature, and probably have more patience because he's not forced into paying a monthly subscriber fee.

On a plus note the game does not have a pay to win feature to piss off its player base.

 

I loved this game until a month prior to Transfers and I just can't bring myself to renew my subscription this august

 

 

Looking at Steam and game made by valve

DOTA 2 (players peaked today at 70k)

Team Fortress 2 (Players peaked at 57k)

 

Its hard to argue the F2P method does not work

 

GW2 never interested me until now but seeing how the play model is so flexible and player friendly, it makes the step really easy to do

 

Looking at Xfire data: SWTOR hovers in between DOTA 2 and Team Fortress in terms of playtime recorded there. (And about 1/6th of WoW's recorded playtime).

 

With a F2P model there's no doubt they could greatly raise that figure, however, do not expect players to forgive bugs, missing features or even have patients with a F2P game. If it's not to their liking, players will be ruthless. Mass Effect 3 user rating of 4.2? There were no monthlies involved in that game. Heck, majority of the game was fine.

 

Let's not forget the very critical response MW2 recieved at launch, it took practically till the launch of Black Ops before MW2 surpassed MW playtime. Also in that case, no subscription costs didn't hold the community back.

 

GW2 will face a similar challenge, and due to the high expectations, most likely fall into similar disappointment. People expect the next best thing, buy the box just like all those other next big thing games, notice it's only slightly different from what they're used to, combat is not as smooth as they like and let the flaming commence.

[Kyriosgundam]

Yowza, Meridian 59 and UO?

 

That's quite the pedigree.

 

Good luck, Rich!

 

My $0.02 is that games often shed their executive producers post-launch -- the set of skills required to get a game launched aren't always the same ones required to to maintain and expand it.

 

That is very true WoW and Star Wars Galaxies did that and Galaxies lasted 10 yrs and WoW is still going. I dont see this as something to worry about.

[Fornix]

people who say its normal for people to be laid off after the game is developed. i say bs... arena net have had the same people since the start of guild wars 1 through to its expansions and are now working on gw2. thats 7 years!! only 1 resigned so far that i know of, the GW2 lead artist of 8 years employment started out as a ground texture artist have moved on and left last month. and they also have actual official explanation to his resignation on good terms.

 

The GW2 team is much, much smaller. ArenaNet has roughly 250 employees overall, that includes the GW team, the GW2 team, etc.

 

EA doesn't handle things that way, EA masses up and can have like 500 - 750 people working on a single project, and once it's done pass them on again. Essentially just ramping up on game content quickly, before sending the lot of them away again once the job is done.

 

Essentially the difference between art and mass production. One way or the other doesn't instantly lead to success or failure.

[Ensquire]

Looking at Xfire data: SWTOR hovers in between DOTA 2 and Team Fortress in terms of playtime recorded there. (And about 1/6th of WoW's recorded playtime).

 

With a F2P model there's no doubt they could greatly raise that figure, however, do not expect players to forgive bugs, missing features or even have patients with a F2P game. If it's not to their liking, players will be ruthless. Mass Effect 3 user rating of 4.2? There were no monthlies involved in that game. Heck, majority of the game was fine.

 

Let's not forget the very critical response MW2 recieved at launch, it took practically till the launch of Black Ops before MW2 surpassed MW playtime. Also in that case, no subscription costs didn't hold the community back.

 

GW2 will face a similar challenge, and due to the high expectations, most likely fall into similar disappointment. People expect the next best thing, buy the box just like all those other next big thing games, notice it's only slightly different from what they're used to, combat is not as smooth as they like and let the flaming commence.

 

Modern Warfare 2 was essentially the same multi-player game as 1 and the differences where minimal, the community had every right to rip into that rehashed game having said that, a player with GW 2 doesn't have to un-sub or re-sub, so even if that player has misgivings he always can come back with minimal hassle, its more player friendly

 

And as you said MW2 player base increased after time because there was no pressure on the player to have a sub

 

ME 3 i can't comment because the Origins exclusive crap for PC was a deal breaker for me, but ME 3 worst features represent everything that is wrong with EA

Edited July 19, 2012 by Ensquire

[Tarbacca]

Oh crap, "considering free to play options". This is good and bad, seeing as I won't have to pay 15 bucks a month, but I'll have to deal with more and more noobs in WZ's and FP's. And no joke that EA/BW will add so many fluff items to get more cash.

[Sporin]

So, now BW:Austin has lost both Gordon Walton and Rich Vogel who were the two studio heads in Austin.

 

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/69468

 

Here's a old video from 2009 where you can hear them talk about their vision on SWTOR.

 

I foresee many more layoffs in BW:Austin's future. Really sorry about that.

 

Very interesting, it now explains why it was released late, it was to let both of them recover from their amnesia, cause not one part of that whole interview is valid, it has more spin that a politician!

[ikemenn]

The GW2 team is much, much smaller. ArenaNet has roughly 250 employees overall, that includes the GW team, the GW2 team, etc.

 

EA doesn't handle things that way, EA masses up and can have like 500 - 750 people working on a single project, and once it's done pass them on again. Essentially just ramping up on game content quickly, before sending the lot of them away again once the job is done.

 

Essentially the difference between art and mass production. One way or the other doesn't instantly lead to success or failure.

 

EA did not make the game....??? they are distribution and funding basically.

bioware made the game and the lay offs are from bioware.

 

anyway, from online reports it states that bioware had 800 people over 4 countries working on swtor, and $200 million budget and 6 years to work on it, with non propriatory game engine.

 

arenanet had 5 years 2007 - 2012, dont know how much it cost them to develop and around 250 people working on it. they built their own engine from the ground up

 

rift had 2006 - 2011, budget of $50 mil has an estimated 200 employees.

Edited July 19, 2012 by ikemenn

[Gruug]

Really let us think about this. Vogel has been in the gaming industry for 20 years. He has worked for at least four companies in that time including at least two stints with EA. Now, let me ask, doesn't it seem "normal" that he would not stay with Bioware after being there for some 7 years? Seems to me that he is a rolling stone and was likely not going to be with Bioware no matter what. I think people want to either read too much into these things or fail to see what the past history has been.

 

Regards, Mr. Vogel...good luck in whatever endeavor you may choose next.

[Darvus]

EA did not make the game....??? they are distribution and funding basically.

bioware made the game and the lay offs are from bioware.

 

anyway, from online reports it states that bioware had 800 people over 4 countries working on swtor, and $200 million budget and 6 years to work on it, with non propriatory game engine.

 

arenanet had 5 years 2007 - 2012, dont know how much it cost them to develop and around 250 people working on it. they built their own engine from the ground up

 

rift had 2006 - 2011, budget of $50 mil has an estimated 200 employees.

 

To be completely honest with you, I believe that a game of this caliber, for this franchise, deserved it's own proprietary engine. In the time it took to develop, that should have been easy.

[Saltydogg]

This is Warhammer: Age of Reckoning all over again....

 

I have been saying that 2 months after launch. No one seems to ever listen. Those that have already unsubbed

[XTREDEN]

This game was supposed to be an epic production, the type of thing you leave as your legacy. Either Mr. Vogel feels he met his goal or he wants no part of its future. Either way I don't think its a good thing when your EP bails. Perhaps he has a personal reason, maybe he was asked to leave. I am not sure, but my gut tells me this isn't a good sign.

[ikemenn]

To be completely honest with you, I believe that a game of this caliber, for this franchise, deserved it's own proprietary engine. In the time it took to develop, that should have been easy.

 

yeah me too. the only reasonable explanation that i can think of for how swtor turned out what it is like now is that:

 

EA pushed them with a tight timeframe. bioware originally had a budget of $80 million for it.

since EA pushed bioware on a tight schedule, bioware poured in resources 800 employees to counter the time constraint. this balooned costs 80 -> 200 million. with so many people working on it efficiency goes down the drain as quality control would be inundated and errors would occur (as evident at release). imagine checking the work of 800 people everyday : even with so many people working on it, they still released a half baked game.

 

i still dont know why they didnt make their own engine though :/ when clearly competitors did it while releasing better quality games in a shorter amount of time and smaller budgets.

[nysis]

I want to see the class stories

I don't want to be forced to regrind the same generic planet quests to get to them

 

I watch the lead devs bail on the game 1 by 1 and wonder why I remain

I hear all of the free to play foreshadowing and wonder why I still pay

[SithVeritas]

I want to see the class stories

I don't want to be forced to regrind the same generic planet quests to get to them

 

I watch the lead devs bail on the game 1 by 1 and wonder why I remain

I hear all of the free to play foreshadowing and wonder why I still pay

 

YouTube.

[Ensquire]

I want to see the class stories

I don't want to be forced to regrind the same generic planet quests to get to them

 

I watch the lead devs bail on the game 1 by 1 and wonder why I remain

I hear all of the free to play foreshadowing and wonder why I still pay

 

Where there's smoke there's fire

[Ensquire]

yeah me too. the only reasonable explanation that i can think of for how swtor turned out what it is like now is that:

 

EA pushed them with a tight timeframe. bioware originally had a budget of $80 million for it.

since EA pushed bioware on a tight schedule, bioware poured in resources 800 employees to counter the time constraint. this balooned costs 80 -> 200 million. with so many people working on it efficiency goes down the drain as quality control would be inundated and errors would occur (as evident at release). imagine checking the work of 800 people everyday : even with so many people working on it, they still released a half baked game.

 

i still dont know why they didnt make their own engine though :/ when clearly competitors did it while releasing better quality games in a shorter amount of time and smaller budgets.

 

Brother I never even knew this was true... It makes so much sense... (Having said that I believe the last engine to be ever made by Bioware was ME1, the rest where licensed)

Edited July 19, 2012 by Ensquire

[Deewe]

F2P system may not fix the core of the game, but the player will be more forgiving because he's not paying or forced to pay

You do have a point however the game will be compared with others more polished F2P MMO.

[Sammennn]

yeah me too. the only reasonable explanation that i can think of for how swtor turned out what it is like now is that:

 

EA pushed them with a tight timeframe. bioware originally had a budget of $80 million for it.

since EA pushed bioware on a tight schedule, bioware poured in resources 800 employees to counter the time constraint. this balooned costs 80 -> 200 million. with so many people working on it efficiency goes down the drain as quality control would be inundated and errors would occur (as evident at release). imagine checking the work of 800 people everyday : even with so many people working on it, they still released a half baked game.

 

Source or just no thank you.

[Fornix]

EA did not make the game....??? they are distribution and funding basically.

bioware made the game and the lay offs are from bioware.

 

BioWare is a subsidiary of EA, they are not a standalone company and haven't been so for practically the past 5 years, ever since EA bought them up back late 2007.

[Nemmar]

Well, the news is that bioware austin is undergoing a restructure.

 

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/250263/bioware-austin-undergoing-restructuring-since-may/

Bioware Austin the studio behind Star Wars: The Old Republic has been undergoing restructuring. The studio has had layoffs going back as far as May, which is five months after the release of Star Wars: The Old Republic.

 

"As announced in May and detailed at E3, the BioWare Austin team is refining Star Wars: The Old Republic to continue to grow the game and the service," said a spokesperson for Bioware.

 

"As with the launch of any MMO, the size and skillset of the teams needed to maintain the game is different than the ones that built it," the spokesperson continued. "Starting in May, there have been staff reductions in the BioWare Austin studio. Some people have been platooned to other projects at BioWare Austin and EA SPORTS/Austin. Others have been released - qualifying personnel receive severance and outplacement assistance."

 

"BioWare Austin is currently staffed to ensure the continued delivery of new, high quality game content for The Old Republic, and at a more frequent cadence. In the weeks ahead, we will announce plans for growing SWTOR with new content, new players and new ways to play."

 

I am sure some lay off's like rich and georg are because they have failed in their positions and were probably payed in gold.

 

I never knew rich before i saw him in this game's development panels.

I will only panic if the KOTOR lead game designer leaves (Daniel Erickson). Hes always been the star of this team and KOTOR.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Nemmar

[ikemenn]

Source or just no thank you.

 

source for what? figures are all over the internet . initial forcast budget of 80 million.. 800 people worked on it, and took 6 years to make, end budget around 200 mil. go do some googling.

 

"BioWare's massively multiplayer online role-playing game Star Wars: The Old Republic shipped in December and quickly recorded 1 million users. And today, it has been revealed the game's budget was massive, too.

It's safe to say The Old Republic's budget was bigger than that of most games.

 

It's safe to say The Old Republic's budget was bigger than that of most games.

 

A new feature story at the Los Angeles Times recounts development on The Old Republic and reveals some nuggets of information about the space-bound MMORPG. According to the Times, The Old Republic cost $200 million to develop, well above the $80 million forecast by Wedbush analyst Michael Pachter last May.

 

The Times reports the game was created over the span of six years by 800 developers on four continents. BioWare cofounder Greg Zeschuk told the paper, "Coordinating it all is like teaching elephants to do ballet." "

 

source: http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-cost-200-million-to-develop-6348959

 

other respectable sites are collaborating the same information as well.

Edited July 19, 2012 by ikemenn

[Skorz]

Wow, this game is going no where.

 

Luckily Guild Wars 2 comes out next month.

 

Hoooray!

 

Yeah I bought GW2 and I tried it once on open beta weekend.. that is how excited I am about GW2 If people think it is going to be some kind of MMO savior, then they will get disappointed. It wasn't anything special or "next gen" to me at least but sure I will play it from time to time since I already bought it.

[Skorz]

And would have 30k subs.

 

Who cares? I'd rather play with 30k mature players than with 10 million idiots. See how the MMO genre has been dumped down over the years for herp derp people because gaming companies only care about money and mainstreaming MMO's. It's been downhill since WoW came out.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Skorz

[ikemenn]

Who cares? I'd rather play with 30k mature players than with 10 million idiots. See how the MMO genre has been dumped down over the years for herp derp people because gaming companies only care about money and mainstreaming MMO's. It's been downhill since WoW came out.

 

that is what guilds are for isnt it? weed out the crap people you dont want to play with??

[macumba]

that is what guilds are for isnt it? weed out the crap people you dont want to play with??

 

the guy you're quoting is right. but you are too in a way.

I use my guild as shield from idiocy, but it should not have to be that way.

 

maybe swtor will turn out to be a better game for me if it goes down to 300k subs just like old school mmo's (eq and daoc) and has a small but fine community.