Executive Producer Rich Vogel Bails on TOR

[Fornix]

WoW is the baseline. It's what over 12,000,000 MMO players have come to expect. They will compare any game they play to WoW. If the game lacks features that WoW has and doesn't add unique, compelling enough features to overcome that deficiency, players will not play the new game. Want proof? Look at this one.

 

Yep, I'm a demander on these forums. That's what a customer should do. I pays my money, I asks for stuff. I asked for stuff during game test, so did a lot of us, and the devs never did it. Lo and behold, when more and paying customers asked for the same stuff post-launch, it happened!

 

If we as consumers were content with whatever companies wanted to hand us, we'd never see any improvements. There would be no power windows. There would be no air conditioning. There would be no HDTV. Our average ISP speed would be 1/3 of that available in South Korea. (Wait, that last one is a bad example.)

 

So as a player, yes, I'm engaged. Both as a paying customer and an active participant on the forums, providing feedback to the service provider I pays my moneys to. How much more engaged could I be, really, as a customer?

 

12 Million is no longer the sub number to what, they dropped by over 2 million and are still declining rapidly. Even WoW doesn't offer many the high demands. Thing is, due to such high expectations, will any title be able to live up to those demands? The answer is appearing to be no, yet players don't realize that in many cases it's rather unrealistic demands they're going for.

[DarthTHC]

12 Million is no longer the sub number to what, they dropped by over 2 million and are still declining rapidly. Even WoW doesn't offer many the high demands. Thing is, due to such high expectations, will any title be able to live up to those demands? The answer is appearing to be no, yet players don't realize that in many cases it's rather unrealistic demands they're going for.

 

In the context of my post, it's really the number of players who've played WoW over the game's lifetime and therefore expect games to have features WoW has. If 12 mil was the peak subscriber count, then at least 12 mil people played the game. It could be a lot higher.

 

It has nothing to do with what other MMOs should expect to get.

 

Context.

[DarkZeron]

What's your definition of a good customer? One who pays whatever the company asks and never asks for anything more than the company gives, even if they shovel 60 day old manure on you day after day?

 

Thats the ideal customer from the companies point of view for sure.

[Soluss]

Thats the ideal customer from the companies point of view for sure.

 

Of course, but you cant expect to blame the customer when that company fails.

[Stacksem]

Half these forum posts are stockholm syndrome fanboys and the other half are people seeing what is REALLy going on. I love this game but none of what has happened in the last few months shows any longevity for this game : /.

[Lazirus-]

WoW is the baseline. It's what over 12,000,000 MMO players have come to expect.

 

Funny, the way numbers add up when you include China.

 

WoW's playerbase without China would be an entirely different story. Probably laughable, compared to the number that you just cited.

 

This game has not launched in China.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Lazirus-

[Lheim]

Actually, I am saying you are part of the problem, rather then part of the solution.

 

In fact, given the lack of patience and loyalty to the product, you are a liability to the game, will always be a liability to the game and should quit the game and go find your holy grail MMO (which does not exist of course, so you will attack and criticise every game you play and demand more for your 50 cents a day then you deserve).

 

Look, I'm .. frustrated by you.

 

I'm not a fickle consumer. I'm not disloyal. What it is, is that I feel lied to and cheated.

 

I'm a consumer who was marketed on a product, who expected the product to meet certain standards common to technology of the day and to meet the promises made in the marketing. If the company producing this product fails to deliver that, I don't owe them a year (at $15 bucks a month!) to make it better. They actually OWE ME. In any other industry I could ask for a refund; I could even walk out of a movie I just happened to not like, half way through, and get my cash back. Can't do that with gaming because we're apparently all pirates so eff us all.

 

I feel like the guy who walked into Kangaroo Jack expecting a talking kangaroo movie.. huh. Wonder why I expected that, it's obvious .. oh, wait. The commercials all used that footage and only that footage.

 

The funny thing about capitalism is this.. loyalty is a word which companies love, but which consumers should stay away from like the freaking plague. Loyalty to companies is for chumps; value is where the real calculation ought to be made - so long as, I concede, you factor in the intangibles like trust as well.

 

Let Bioware fix their game. I'll come back when it's playable by my standards.

 

And no, my standards aren't unrealistic. I don't want eight year's worth of old raid content. I wanted an open explorable world, gameplay that is even slightly different than what I've been doing for eight years, and in general things that look like they didn't slavishly ape their most significant competitor in every detail, only worse. It's not unrealistic because there are other companies coming out with just that, THIS YEAR. I remember several statements that Bioware made in their marketing and hype videos .. and if they had actually followed those statements, if they hadn't turned out to be lies, y'know this game woulda been pretty nice.

 

I think that's my biggest issue with Bioware right now. Said the Mass Effect 3 ending wouldn't be A, B, or C. Said that TOR would have open worlds where empire and republic might cross paths while questing. Said that there would be sandbox elements in TOR. There's that intangible trust going down the drain. Didn't they say something about having vibrant worlds, about feeling like you're in a crowded metropolis when you're on Coruscant? Pretty sure I can go there and listen to the silence, in reality. Daniel Erickson and Greg must've been drinking themselves to sleep as launch approached.

 

SWTOR is RIM's blackberry to Blizzard's iPhone. Facebook's Google+. If they'd been able to differentiate themselves? They coulda been Facebook's twitter. The iphone's kindle. Y'see how that works? Two different products there that provide different things and aren't in direct competition?

 

Any way, I enjoyed the stories. That much was playing to Bioware's strength. But MMOs are different beasts, and they can't just feed us eight bioware stories and expect us to pay to play them over and over for years on end - specially when, as I said, the gameplay itself, as distinct from the stories, is stale and doesn't match the promises.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Lheim

[Snakeyees]

Look, I'm .. frustrated by you.

 

I'm not a fickle consumer. I'm not disloyal. What it is, is that I feel lied to and cheated.

 

I'm a consumer who was marketed on a product, who expected the product to meet certain standards common to technology of the day and to meet the promises made in the marketing. If the company producing this product fails to deliver that, I don't owe them a year (at $15 bucks a month!) to make it better. They actually OWE ME. In any other industry I could ask for a refund; I could even walk out of a movie I just happened to not like, half way through, and get my cash back. Can't do that with gaming because we're apparently all pirates so eff us all.

 

I feel like the guy who walked into Kangaroo Jack expecting a talking kangaroo movie.. huh. Wonder why I expected that, it's obvious .. oh, wait. The commercials all used that footage and only that footage.

 

The funny thing about capitalism is this.. loyalty is a word which companies love, but which consumers should stay away from like the freaking plague. Loyalty to companies is for chumps; value is where the real calculation ought to be made - so long as, I concede, you factor in the intangibles like trust as well.

 

Let Bioware fix their game. I'll come back when it's playable by my standards.

 

And no, my standards aren't unrealistic. I don't want eight year's worth of old raid content. I wanted an open explorable world, gameplay that is even slightly different than what I've been doing for eight years, and in general things that look like they didn't slavishly ape their most significant competitor in every detail, only worse. It's not unrealistic because there are other companies coming out with just that, THIS YEAR. I remember several statements that Bioware made in their marketing and hype videos .. and if they had actually followed those statements, if they hadn't turned out to be lies, y'know this game woulda been pretty nice.

 

I think that's my biggest issue with Bioware right now. Said the Mass Effect 3 ending wouldn't be A, B, or C. Said that TOR would have open worlds where empire and republic might cross paths while questing. Said that there would be sandbox elements in TOR. There's that intangible trust going down the drain. Didn't they say something about having vibrant worlds, about feeling like you're in a crowded metropolis when you're on Coruscant? Pretty sure I can go there and listen to the silence, in reality. Daniel Erickson and Greg must've been drinking themselves to sleep as launch approached.

 

SWTOR is RIM's blackberry to Blizzard's iPhone. Facebook's Google+. If they'd been able to differentiate themselves? They coulda been Facebook's twitter. The iphone's kindle. Y'see how that works? Two different products there that provide different things and aren't in direct competition?

 

Any way, I enjoyed the stories. That much was playing to Bioware's strength. But MMOs are different beasts, and they can't just feed us eight bioware stories and expect us to pay to play them over and over for years on end - specially when, as I said, the gameplay itself, as distinct from the stories, is stale and doesn't match the promises.

 

 

WELL SAID!! I Agree with everything you wrote.

[Arkerus]

Look, I'm .. frustrated by you.

 

I'm not a fickle consumer. I'm not disloyal. What it is, is that I feel lied to and cheated.

 

I'm a consumer who was marketed on a product, who expected the product to meet certain standards common to technology of the day and to meet the promises made in the marketing. If the company producing this product fails to deliver that, I don't owe them a year (at $15 bucks a month!) to make it better. They actually OWE ME. In any other industry I could ask for a refund; I could even walk out of a movie I just happened to not like, half way through, and get my cash back. Can't do that with gaming because we're apparently all pirates so eff us all.

 

I feel like the guy who walked into Kangaroo Jack expecting a talking kangaroo movie.. huh. Wonder why I expected that, it's obvious .. oh, wait. The commercials all used that footage and only that footage.

 

The funny thing about capitalism is this.. loyalty is a word which companies love, but which consumers should stay away from like the freaking plague. Loyalty to companies is for chumps; value is where the real calculation ought to be made - so long as, I concede, you factor in the intangibles like trust as well.

 

Let Bioware fix their game. I'll come back when it's playable by my standards.

 

And no, my standards aren't unrealistic. I don't want eight year's worth of old raid content. I wanted an open explorable world, gameplay that is even slightly different than what I've been doing for eight years, and in general things that look like they didn't slavishly ape their most significant competitor in every detail, only worse. It's not unrealistic because there are other companies coming out with just that, THIS YEAR. I remember several statements that Bioware made in their marketing and hype videos .. and if they had actually followed those statements, if they hadn't turned out to be lies, y'know this game woulda been pretty nice.

 

I think that's my biggest issue with Bioware right now. Said the Mass Effect 3 ending wouldn't be A, B, or C. Said that TOR would have open worlds where empire and republic might cross paths while questing. Said that there would be sandbox elements in TOR. There's that intangible trust going down the drain. Didn't they say something about having vibrant worlds, about feeling like you're in a crowded metropolis when you're on Coruscant? Pretty sure I can go there and listen to the silence, in reality. Daniel Erickson and Greg must've been drinking themselves to sleep as launch approached.

 

SWTOR is RIM's blackberry to Blizzard's iPhone. Facebook's Google+. If they'd been able to differentiate themselves? They coulda been Facebook's twitter. The iphone's kindle. Y'see how that works? Two different products there that provide different things and aren't in direct competition?

 

Any way, I enjoyed the stories. That much was playing to Bioware's strength. But MMOs are different beasts, and they can't just feed us eight bioware stories and expect us to pay to play them over and over for years on end - specially when, as I said, the gameplay itself, as distinct from the stories, is stale and doesn't match the promises.

 

What's strange is that I followed the game from day 1 as well, and what we got was what I expected. I didn't see the holy grail of mmo. I got what I expected, which was a solid, story driven game that didn't break the mold. I am not delusional in thinking that there are no improvements, but I'm not getting up on my soapbox like other people because I was not lied to. No one was lied to and saying that only destroys the conversation.

 

A lot of you folks have to realize you are not the savior of the game. It doesn't really need your help. The forums are just a way to converse in a civil manner about the game. If the product fits your need, you will continue to pay. If it doesn't, then you will stop subbing. It's that simple.

[turjake]

Being lied to, cheated seems to be the fashionable complaint these days. Sometimes it feels like I am watching Dr Phil instead of reading forums of a game when every second poster complains how traumatized they are when all their imagined expectations of the game were not fully fulfulled and they think they were being lied to or cheated.

[Tuscad]

Being lied to, cheated seems to be the fashionable complaint these days. Sometimes it feels like I am watching Dr Phil instead of reading forums of a game when every second poster complains how traumatized they are when all their imagined expectations of the game were not fully fulfulled and they think they were being lied to or cheated.

 

But in Dr.Phil both sides are present and try to resolve it by speaking to each other, here we do not have that. Here we have the people who have legitimate complaints be ignored.

[Lheim]

Being lied to, cheated seems to be the fashionable complaint these days. Sometimes it feels like I am watching Dr Phil instead of reading forums of a game when every second poster complains how traumatized they are when all their imagined expectations of the game were not fully fulfulled and they think they were being lied to or cheated.

 

I don't think my expectations were unrealistic - as I said, I wanted an open world with npc activity, ambient music and sounds, some basic polish features like useable auction house and a way to find people to group with that wasn't limited by PLANET for heaven's sake.. and gameplay that, if similar to wow, at least didn't end with me doing dailies and grinding badges again.

 

What'd I get? Stone dead silence in the senate tower, the beating heart of a galaxy spanning civilization. Worlds that were frustrating to navigate, full of cliffs and one-way passages. The most slack first-pass auction house and LFG system I've ever yet seen. Gameplay that wasn't only similar to wow but identical, right to dailies and badge grinds.

 

I'm not lying; they talked about having open immersive worlds, sand box elements, bustling npc activity, superb interface, etc. As it was, I played for six months being 'loyal', and now the game is basically in a releasable state after my patience has worn out. Still no sound of wind on Tattooine, though. Still no cure for Corellia's baffling architecture and unscripted NPCs. Still no cure for load times that are pathetic in comparison to GW2's - load times for areas that are smaller and less bustling, but far far longer.

 

Are those unrealistic expectations? No. WoW would've met them, day one of release. TSW, GW2, yep. Hell, LOTRO too. DDO, sure. I don't ask for much. My LFG woes could've been solved, day 2 of release, by the implementation of a server-wide lfg channel for heaven's sake.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Lheim

[turjake]

I don't think my expectations were unrealistic - as I said, I wanted an open world with npc activity, ambient music and sounds, some basic polish features like useable auction house and a way to find people to group with that wasn't limited by PLANET for heaven's sake.. and gameplay that, if similar to wow, at least didn't end with me doing dailies and grinding badges again.

 

What'd I get? Stone dead silence in the senate tower, the beating heart of a galaxy spanning civilization. Worlds that were frustrating to navigate, full of cliffs and one-way passages. The most slack first-pass auction house and LFG system I've ever yet seen. Gameplay that wasn't only similar to wow but identical, right to dailies and badge grinds.

 

I'm not lying; they talked about having open immersive worlds, sand box elements, bustling npc activity, superb interface, etc. As it was, I played for six months being 'loyal', and now the game is basically in a releasable state after my patience has worn out. Still no sound of wind on Tattooine, though. Still no cure for Corellia's baffling architecture and unscripted NPCs. Still no cure for load times that are pathetic in comparison to GW2's - load times for areas that are smaller and less bustling, but far far longer.

 

Are those unrealistic expectations? No. WoW would've met them, day one of release. TSW, GW2, yep. Hell, LOTRO too. DDO, sure. I don't ask for much. My LFG woes could've been solved, day 2 of release, by the implementation of a server-wide lfg channel for heaven's sake.

 

Which wow are you talking about? The one that started around the beginning on 2005 did not have most of the stuff you seem to assume it had. Lotro only recently got some kind of beta version of LFG tool. During the spring, when I tested it last time most people didnt bother with it.

[Lheim]

Which wow are you talking about? The one that started around the beginning on 2005 did not have most of the stuff you seem to assume it had. Lotro only recently got some kind of beta version of LFG tool. During the spring, when I tested it last time most people didnt bother with it.

 

Wow had an LFG channel. It had wolves running after rabbits and eating them. It had a freaking auction house search that worked. It had music that played in areas for more than a few brief bursts every few minutes. It had world design that didn't require minutes-long loading screens very often at all, as opposed to several in a row to move between planets, and mountains you could actually freaking CLIMB rather than just be forced to hike around.

 

A lot of you folks have to realize you are not the savior of the game. It doesn't really need your help. The forums are just a way to converse in a civil manner about the game. If the product fits your need, you will continue to pay. If it doesn't, then you will stop subbing. It's that simple.

 

You don't seem to get it; I'm not trying to be a savior. I'm doing exactly what you said - I explain why I am, as a customer, dissatisfied with the product I've purchased. And I've quit paying for it. The only reason I'm still able to post is because they tried to bribe us all off with a free month.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Lheim

[turjake]

Wow had an LFG channel.

Back in 2005 wow had similar LFG channels, limited to areas as plenty of other games had/have. It took them years to actually implement a global LFG system.

It had wolves running after rabbits and eating them.

Not that I care that much, but SWTOR has various scenery things happening here and there if you bother to look around.

It had a freaking auction house search that worked.

It had music that played in areas for more than a few brief bursts every few minutes.

After a while I just turned the music off, since there were not that much of it than you seem to think there was and in a mmorpg it becomes repetitive eventually. In SWTOR I havent done that yet, although I havent played as long I have played wow for example.

It had world design that didn't require minutes-long loading screens very often at all, as opposed to several in a row to move between planets,

Instead it had long flights with birds or travels with boats. It seems that hiding the long loading times into traveltimes with boats and whatever has worked better than just showing a loading screen.

 

and mountains you could actually freaking CLIMB rather than just be forced to hike around.

There are not too many technical differences between the early wow landscapes and current SWTOR landscapes. Both have places you can climb, and places you cannot. I am sure they changed the wow landscapes in cataclysm since they enabled flying in azeroth but you were talking about early wow.

[Selvec]

Pretty sure Zenimax is making it not Bethesda, so it will be interesting to see if they understand how to make an Elder Scrolls game or not.

They don't.

[Xenaul]

Back in 2005 wow had similar LFG channels, limited to areas as plenty of other games had/have. It took them years to actually implement a global LFG system.

 

Not that I care that much, but SWTOR has various scenery things happening here and there if you bother to look around.

 

 

After a while I just turned the music off, since there were not that much of it than you seem to think there was and in a mmorpg it becomes repetitive eventually. In SWTOR I havent done that yet, although I havent played as long I have played wow for example.

 

Instead it had long flights with birds or travels with boats. It seems that hiding the long loading times into traveltimes with boats and whatever has worked better than just showing a loading screen.

 

 

There are not too many technical differences between the early wow landscapes and current SWTOR landscapes. Both have places you can climb, and places you cannot. I am sure they changed the wow landscapes in cataclysm since they enabled flying in azeroth but you were talking about early wow.

 

It's all true. But this isn't 2005. So the game was released in Late 2011 set to complete and surpass the game released 6 years prior? They cribbed very, very heavily from WoW. That point cannot be argued against. Heck just compare Sith Warrior class with World of Warcraft Warrior. So if you are going to "borrow", why "borrow" from 6 year old design? Heck, even 6 months later we now have to do "move over to me when ready!" because somehow the idea of ready check or /random did not enter their minds?

 

I am frustrated. I am trying really, really hard to understand how design mistakes like that could've been made, How no body said "hey stop, this is not right, players will hate it" or "we really need to have LFG available at launch, other after brief initial rush people will miserable." WoW gets this excuse, because they were trail blazers where it came to "theme park" MMOs. A game that came 6 years later does not.

[Arkerus]

Wow had an LFG channel. It had wolves running after rabbits and eating them. It had a freaking auction house search that worked. It had music that played in areas for more than a few brief bursts every few minutes. It had world design that didn't require minutes-long loading screens very often at all, as opposed to several in a row to move between planets, and mountains you could actually freaking CLIMB rather than just be forced to hike around.

 

 

 

You don't seem to get it; I'm not trying to be a savior. I'm doing exactly what you said - I explain why I am, as a customer, dissatisfied with the product I've purchased. And I've quit paying for it. The only reason I'm still able to post is because they tried to bribe us all off with a free month.

 

I'm sorry, but if I wasn't a paying customer I would simply go about my day instead of trying to save a game I don't even pay for. Seems like an extreme waste of time to me. Why don't you simply go to a game that is more your liking? That's an honest question. Bioware never lied to you, so please don't use extreme examples that simply aren't true.

[Kynesis]

It's all true. But this isn't 2005. So the game was released in Late 2011 set to complete and surpass the game released 6 years prior? They cribbed very, very heavily from WoW. That point cannot be argued against. Heck just compare Sith Warrior class with World of Warcraft Warrior. So if you are going to "borrow", why "borrow" from 6 year old design? Heck, even 6 months later we now have to do "move over to me when ready!" because somehow the idea of ready check or /random did not enter their minds?

 

I am frustrated. I am trying really, really hard to understand how design mistakes like that could've been made, How no body said "hey stop, this is not right, players will hate it" or "we really need to have LFG available at launch, other after brief initial rush people will miserable." WoW gets this excuse, because they were trail blazers where it came to "theme park" MMOs. A game that came 6 years later does not.

 

I generally try to side with the developers because making a program as massive as an MMO (or just about any modern game) is a mammoth undertaking, no matter how much effort they put in there are bound to be areas that will draw serious criticism - and it's always infinitely easier to criticise something for not meeting an individual's hopes or interests.

Having said that, the points made here are worth underlining; ultimately a product released in 2011 is going to be treated and judged as a product released in 2011 along with all other products available in 2011.

 

They knew at the outset that they were taking a risk by following so closely in WoW's foot steps but it had proven to be such a reliable success that it surely seemed a safe bet. The amount of work required to create their own complete MMO engine - which ultimately would've had to have many of the same features that WoW has they judged would simply take far too much time. I have no evidence for it but it seems clear to me that the technical expertise required simply wasn't available to BW to do this, let-alone do it quickly and in a robust manner.

IMHO the choice seems to have boiled down to "well... we can build the whole thing based on WoW and have a really good shot at being crazily successful... it's not ideal but the other option is not doing it."

 

They've got a lot of seriously smart people, they would've mulled it over with more seriously smart people and I'm sure they would've come to the same conclusion "Look... either we do this thing or we don't. There's no point spending years building a huge engine like WoW's when we can just buy one off the shelf; It's just not where our expertise is. We'll make it our own and focus on areas where our expertise will make it awesome."

 

The issue right from the outset is that "it's like WoW" - which is what the investors want. There's rather a lot of money at stake, to get the whole thing off the ground they need investors and investors want WoW (or more specifically the safe bet with mountainous profits).

They needed the investment, Activision/Blizzard have developed very deep pockets and major talent bases, branding and consumer bases. Bioware's big and they've made some really successful games but they're just not in the same ballpark. The choice must've seemed like a no-brainer, especially when it means they almost immediately get to get stuck into the work they love most - so, it was quicker, easier and more seductive.

 

As we're all so fond of pointing out though - a WoW clone is a WoW clone, no matter how you slice it or dress it up, it's "wow with lightsabers" and in recent years, we've been spoiled with innovation - our expectations have risen greatly and more importantly, we've learned to expect that new releases are guaranteed either to be a diamond farting wonder (Yahtzee quote) or a total failure, and that there's only so much market to share and that the costs are so huge that "there can be only one" MMO - that old MMO's have to 'die' to make way for new ones.

 

Likewise our tolerance for sequels and remakes of various kinds has been ground out to its absolute limits by the entertainment industry and they're still pressing on with more sequels and remakes.

 

That's a tough audience.

 

So, they made a call - took a chance and made a great product but made a few critical mistakes on the way, nearly identical mistakes to those of games who've gone before and in some cases, glaring cases they made the same choices as Blizzard early on (their stances on LFG, X-server features, Dual-Spec to name just a few).

They had critical mass and failed to capitalise on it.

The EA executives are surely looking on from the towers of money they've made from (wringing the life from) sports games thinking "swing & a miss."

 

The bigger issue I see is that their foundation is the Hero Engine - not because of any technical deficiency but because it is WoW (reverse engineered).

That means that all of the most critical innovations have to be the same as WoW's and every further step will be something that either WoW can do, will do, will do better or will have already done "forever will it dominate their destiny.."

Lying to themselves by denying this has cost them dearly and that 'no-brainer' in hindsight, is probably a choice they'd rather have available to do differently now.

 

So while it's easy to criticise, especially with hindsight (and obviously from 'outside'), it's pretty obvious that they've muffed it.

It'll still be a good game, can still be a great game (I hope to play it for a long time) and they can still 'make it their own' but it's going to take some soul searching, tough choices and much more work than I think they ever envisaged to get it where it really needs to be.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Kynesis

[CosmicKat]

 

They've got a lot of seriously smart people, they would've mulled it over with more seriously smart people and I'm sure they would've come to the same conclusion "Look... either we do this thing or we don't. There's no point spending years building a huge engine like WoW's when we can just buy one off the shelf; It's just not where our expertise is. We'll make it our own and focus on areas where our expertise will make it awesome."

 

 

Your whole post was generally well presented but it erroneously frames WoW as the template of the MMO.

 

WoW is not remotely an original product. It is Everquest changed just enough to avoid being sued, and then made simple enough for children in order to expand the target demographic. Copying WoW poorly is not the reason most modern MMO's suffer varying levels of failure, it is the fact that they are copying WoW at all.

 

Like in cheesy sci-fi, you do not clone a clone, bad things happen. You clone the original, and WoW is by no means an orginal product in any way, shape, or form.

 

I don't doubt that non-game playing investors think cloning WoW is a safe bet. Anyone who actually is a gamer though will be able to tell you that the vast majority of WoW gamers do not and will not play anything but WoW. The rest of us who are not playing WoW would be playing WoW if that is what we wanted. We don't want WoW and we sure don't want a clone of it.

 

My hope is that they realize the WoW template was a mistake and they steer away from it in the future. My fear is that they will think TOR isn't uber-popular because it isn't enough like WoW and they go more in that direction.

 

Note: I am not criticizing WoW or TOR for the fact that they are clones. Almost every game is a "clone" of one or two other games.

[Militarymage]

links or it didnt....nevermind. lol Never a good sign when the dude instrumental in the development of the game leaves on his own. the wheels are coming off the cart..

 

agree not a good sign

[DrowNoble]

Funny, the way numbers add up when you include China.

 

WoW's playerbase without China would be an entirely different story. Probably laughable, compared to the number that you just cited.

 

This game has not launched in China.

 

Well first off WoW doesnt have 12 million subs last "official" tally I heard was 10 million. They lost 2 million total in 2011 even though they released Wrath finally in china and gained 500k there. Secondly, a lot of games in china aren't subscription based, they are pay by the hour or F2P. So if you look at most concurrent daily users that's League of Legends and if you look at most total registered users that's Runescape. Sub numbers are good, but do not really show how "big" or "successful" a game is or isn't.

 

As for Bioware, I think they need a slice of humble pie and communicate better with their customers. The fiasco of the ME3 ending made Bioware seem arrogant. They said nothing for weeks then finally said "it's our game we can do what we want so bugger off". This was contrary to previously when they would say fans help make the game. Then they release a half-hearted EC which many feel was a slap in the face to just shut people up. The mmo market is VERY competative, Bioware cannot rely on customer loyalty to keep the sub numbers up. There are too many mmos out there, some big names coming this year, for them to hope people will play swtor soley because it's a Bioware game.

 

I think their EA masters are probably getting antsy that this very expensive development project is not meeting revenue expectations.

[Holden_Dissent]

Well first off WoW doesnt have 12 million subs last "official" tally I heard was 10 million. They lost 2 million total in 2011 even though they released Wrath finally in china and gained 500k there. Secondly, a lot of games in china aren't subscription based, they are pay by the hour or F2P. So if you look at most concurrent daily users that's League of Legends and if you look at most total registered users that's Runescape. Sub numbers are good, but do not really show how "big" or "successful" a game is or isn't.

 

As for Bioware, I think they need a slice of humble pie and communicate better with their customers. The fiasco of the ME3 ending made Bioware seem arrogant. They said nothing for weeks then finally said "it's our game we can do what we want so bugger off". This was contrary to previously when they would say fans help make the game. Then they release a half-hearted EC which many feel was a slap in the face to just shut people up. The mmo market is VERY competative, Bioware cannot rely on customer loyalty to keep the sub numbers up. There are too many mmos out there, some big names coming this year, for them to hope people will play swtor soley because it's a Bioware game.

 

I think their EA masters are probably getting antsy that this very expensive development project is not meeting revenue expectations.

 

So, since China's subs don't ever get cancelled and can't be considered a lost sub, WoW lost 2m of it's 4m subs in the US/EU last year?

 

Why are people ragging on SWTOR again?

[Soluss]

So, since China's subs don't ever get cancelled and can't be considered a lost sub, WoW lost 2m of it's 4m subs in the US/EU last year?

 

Why are people ragging on SWTOR again?

 

WoW is 8 years old and has 5x+ the sub numbers. ToR is 8 months old and steadily going downhill.

[Lord_of_Mu]

So, since China's subs don't ever get cancelled and can't be considered a lost sub, WoW lost 2m of it's 4m subs in the US/EU last year?

 

Why are people ragging on SWTOR again?

 

WoW has a good marketing team to keep consumer confidence in the product high along with cross server LFG and PvP systems to use every available player.

 

No one really cares about the ghost towns because players rarely leave the major cities.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Lord_of_Mu