Need & Greed

[Scorpienne]

So I said...

 

These three schools of thought are largely irreconcilable. Many people seem to believe that their way is the only right way and that everyone should have the same viewpoint and that people who don't are somehow dumb-bad-naive-greedy or just jerks.

 

And you replied...

 

No they are not.

[snip]

Players who behave as such are either ignorant or narcissistic (or both) players who are fully conscious of what theyre doing is wrong, and as sich should be shunned by the community as a whole.

 

I think you just proved my point?

 

Having said that, I COMPLETELY agree with you - you're preaching to the choir on this one. I 100% believe and espouse that it's need for self only, current spec only, upgrade only, whole item not just mods only. Even then, I often ask in party chat before I need something. I believe this enough that I will not play the game with people who don't share a similar philosophy.

 

However, there are a lot of people out there that will vehemently disagree with both of us. Shown here, actual size...

 

i always roll need on light armor & "biometric crystal alloy" and some pugs hate me for that, some even go so far as to kick and report me... well sorry but i'm still rolling need on what i want.

 

so stop whining and roll with me cuz thats how I roll!

 

 

Until the heavens open up and an 11th commandement drops out, I don't think we can assume we're morally right and they're morally wrong.

 

The need-for-self-only-current spec only-upgrade only-whole-items-only people are just different than the need-for-companion and need-because-you-can't-stop-me people. These other folks are *convinced* they're right and you can't change their minds with anger, guilt, or even sweet, sweet, reason. They don't get it, they don't care, they're not listening, or they're not convinced.

 

In my ideal MMO, anyone who wanted to play would have to take a comprehensive literacy, psychological stability, intelligence, maturity, and philosophy test/survey. The players would then get deposited onto servers based on grouping persons that have similar levels of literacy, stability, intelligence, maturity, and loot division policies. That is totally a pipe dream, though.

 

Til then, me personally, I deal with it by not grouping with people who don't share my philosophy and by leaving PUGs where the other players have different philosophies.

 

 

Paige

Edited July 16, 2012 by Scorpienne

[Ashu-ri]

Okay, here's my take on it.

 

When I'm grouping with my hubby, or a friend of ours, we only roll need for a companion IF IT IS AGREED UPON. When I'm grouping with my guild, if it's for a companion, and it's not on master loot, I'll roll greed. After all, it's not something I myself need. If it's master loot, then I won't roll on a companion item until rolls for companions are called out. That's just me, and my hubby and my friend though.

[Gokkus]

Last time someone rolled need for a companion he got kicked 30 seconds later. Most people are not forgiving or patient enough to deal with this sort of thing and kick instantly. Seems like a fairly good solution, since it makes things a lot tougher on the 'needers'... Edited July 16, 2012 by Gokkus

[Darth-Piranha]

i'll say this again. i only roll need on light armor and biometric crystal alloy. everything else i pass. and for those who whine and throw tantrums over the fact that i rolled need and they didn't? this word comes to mind.

[TheIronMonkey]

There are a couple of things I would like to mention about this argument.

 

1. I can't keep track of what other people should need or not. I barely can keep track of what I need. So I am not watching if the other player just "needed" something they can't use. I am busy checking to see if I need it or not.

 

2. For us PvE mostly solo players, the companion is a VERY integral part of our game. Sorry for MMO purist, but I do play by myself 95%+ of the time and NEED that companion to be well equipped. Now most of the time I have one companion of choice, so I will probably be shopping for that one companion.

 

Unfortunately, drops suck when trying to outfit your companion, and not everybody has the funds or can get the stuff you want for them on the GTN.

 

Given the problems with this, I do a couple of things :

 

1. upon start of the group, I state what I am shopping for and that I will NEED this or that. That way there are no surprises. I have never been kicked out once I state this is why I am there for upfront.

 

2. I PASS on most everything else. That way if others want the loot to sell, go ahead. I think that can make up for me needing something that doesn't apply to myself.

 

So I am on the band of : NEED things I can USE on either myself or my main companion, greed very few things, PASS on most everything else.

 

Anyway, I mostly run flashpoints over level and most of the stuff is useless to me.

[Ratajack]

 

1. its for my companion

2. i will strip the mods out

3. its for an alt

 

all are valid reasons to roll need on something that will not apply to your current toon. i suggest you you spell out the rules as some people will use those excuses to roll need. then you got people who will vendor sell it and say if the game lets me need on it, i can and will do so. Its all about who you are and what rule set you want to use. Not everyone follows the same rule as you.

 

find a group and establish 1 rule set so you dont get upset.

 

 

Those are only valid reasons IF nobody in the group can actually use them. If there is only one character who can use a piece of heavy, for example, then that is the only character that can justify a "need" role.

 

You will find many people that agree with you and many people that will disagree with you. I personally roll need if it is an upgrade for my character, and roll greed or ask if the group minds if I need, for whatever reason, any other time. This is courtesy, but not by any means a requirement, or an acknowledgement that anyone has more "right" to a given piece of gear than I do.

 

That's how I roll when it comes to instance loot, but I also recognize that everyone present for the kill of whatever mob dropped a given piece of loot has an EQUAL right to the loot that dropped. This means that the inquisitor has just as much right to roll need on that piece of heavy armor, strength gear as the juggernaut does. Those players who tell you otherwise are simply suffering from delusions of entitlement. I recognize that I might lose that aim piece that would be a major upgrade for my trooper to a sage to be used for a companion, or even to vendor. While I find it frustrating, I do not feel that it was ninja'd from me. I just run the instance again, if I really want that piece. I do not consider myself a part of the "entitled" generation and do not mind having to work a little longer for something.

[PlayLoud]

1. its for my companion

2. i will strip the mods out

3. its for an alt

 

1. I don't consider this a valid reason to Need. If somebody asks in party chat if they can need, I would probably give my consent, but this should be discussed before actually clicking the button.

 

2. I actually think this one is ok IF you are talking about the main armor/barrel/etc component. I "needed" on a rating 136 helmet from The Esseles HM (I was the only Trooper anyway), and now I have the armoring mod in my orange helm. If I can put the main piece into my orange armor, that is just as good as wearing the piece itself.

 

3. I don't consider this a reason to Need. Generally, if I don't "need' the drop, and somebody else asks if they can "need" it (for a companion/alt), I'll give my consent.

Edited July 16, 2012 by PlayLoud

[MasterKayote]

The need-for-self-only-current spec only-upgrade only-whole-items-only people are just different than the need-for-companion and need-because-you-can't-stop-me people. These other folks are *convinced* they're right and you can't change their minds with anger, guilt, or even sweet, sweet, reason. They don't get it, they don't care, they're not listening, or they're not convinced.

 

My problem is you seem to be removing their guilt and defending their character by claiming theyre "just different." Yeah, youre technically right, theyre "different." Like clean filtered water is to gooey infected ****. In the same sense of an honest/fair worker is different from some jerk scam artist who'd rip you off to the furthest extent of the law. Just because its "legal," doesnt make them any better.

 

Theyre not "different," theyre the scum of society ... in this case the scum of the game. A disease which only serves to degrade the community. Unfortunately thats about as far as I can describe them because any more of an accurate terminology would probably get me an infraction. Why? Because much like the aforementioned scum of society, its perfectly legal to be "scum," and giving them exactly what they deserve is most likely illegal in whatever community theyre infecting. Much like other diseases, all we can do is identify them, avoid them at all costs, and hope there is a cure soon.

[TryRoon]

I like to think most people are like me and only a few are like this person. I was with a group doing a heroic one player was do need on everything. When we called him on it he said "it is for my guild" I could not use the items but the other two people cou;d have and they were upset that this guy got everything. Please can we have this fixed. I only select need for my current toon that I am playing with, and I pass up thing for my alts because others may need it.

[Moozhe]

It is an honor system. Do you think it would work any other way?

 

The system is mostly designed in a way where people are allowed to determine their own value for an item and the system doesn't second guess them. The system will never be able to determine whether you truly "need" an item. The only exceptions being obvious ones like if it's an item you can't use due to restrictions of class or armor type.

 

Think of it this way. By default if you can use an item, you need it. It's your choice if you want to choose greed or pass to allow others who need it more to get it. That's not something the system can automate. People can choose if they want to be nice or not.

 

The only thing I think the loot system needs is 3 tiers of rolls. For example, right now there are two tiers, Need and Greed. When you roll Need, you're essentially saying "I really need this item!" but when you roll Greed you're saying "I don't want this item, but will take it and vendor it instead of letting it go to waste." There should be a middle ground since those are polar opposites. Rolling for gear for your companions is a good example of a 2nd tier roll.

 

If something dropped that I could use for my companions, I don't want to Greed since I'll probably lose to someone who will just vendor it. So I'll Need it. If I see that someone else also Needed it and it matches their main spec, I'll have no problem giving it to them.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Moozhe

[PlayLoud]

The only thing I think the loot system needs is 3 tiers of rolls. For example, right now there are two tiers, Need and Greed. When you roll Need, you're essentially saying "I really need this item!" but when you roll Greed you're saying "I don't want this item, but will take it and vendor it instead of letting it go to waste." There should be a middle ground since those are polar opposites. Rolling for gear for your companions is a good example of a 2nd tier roll.

The only problem I have with this is, it's much easier to lie as players can't inspect your companions on the spot to verify your claim. This will lead to everybody using that middle tier, just like greed is used now.

[Ratajack]

My problem is you seem to be removing their guilt and defending their character by claiming theyre "just different." Yeah, youre technically right, theyre "different." Like clean filtered water is to gooey infected ****. In the same sense of an honest/fair worker is different from some jerk scam artist who'd rip you off to the furthest extent of the law. Just because its "legal," doesnt make them any better.

 

Theyre not "different," theyre the scum of society ... in this case the scum of the game. A disease which only serves to degrade the community. Unfortunately thats about as far as I can describe them because any more of an accurate terminology would probably get me an infraction. Why? Because much like the aforementioned scum of society, its perfectly legal to be "scum," and giving them exactly what they deserve is most likely illegal in whatever community theyre infecting. Much like other diseases, all we can do is identify them, avoid them at all costs, and hope there is a cure soon.

 

The fact of the matter is that everyone present contributed to the kill and therefore have as much "right" to any gear that drops as the next person. The attitude that anyone has more right to a given piece of gear due to their class is just as "wrong" as is rolling on any piece of gear that drops. While I greed on gear that is not a direct upgrade for my character, I do not attempt to force my views on others, nor attempt to punish them for having views different from mine.

[Blackavaar]

The devs are working on just such a system to counter these issues. And the Suggestion Box is at the top of the General forum.

 

[ZORG]

Scrap 3 as you can't give it to alts as it becomes Bind On Pickup.

 

Not totally true. I can rip the mods out and put it in a piece of legacy gear and send to my alt....

[Kaisernick]

There are a couple of things I would like to mention about this argument.

 

1. I can't keep track of what other people should need or not. I barely can keep track of what I need. So I am not watching if the other player just "needed" something they can't use. I am busy checking to see if I need it or not.

 

2. For us PvE mostly solo players, the companion is a VERY integral part of our game. Sorry for MMO purist, but I do play by myself 95%+ of the time and NEED that companion to be well equipped. Now most of the time I have one companion of choice, so I will probably be shopping for that one companion.

 

Unfortunately, drops suck when trying to outfit your companion, and not everybody has the funds or can get the stuff you want for them on the GTN.

 

Given the problems with this, I do a couple of things :

 

1. upon start of the group, I state what I am shopping for and that I will NEED this or that. That way there are no surprises. I have never been kicked out once I state this is why I am there for upfront.

 

2. I PASS on most everything else. That way if others want the loot to sell, go ahead. I think that can make up for me needing something that doesn't apply to myself.

 

So I am on the band of : NEED things I can USE on either myself or my main companion, greed very few things, PASS on most everything else.

 

Anyway, I mostly run flashpoints over level and most of the stuff is useless to me.

i will do the same HOWEVER if say i am after a Bh armor for kaliyo and there is a Bh in the group that also needs it i will pass this time.

no matter how much i need something i feel it is plain wrong to take it away from someone who can use it on their main character.

[ZionHalcyon]

Sorry, I don't think any of those are valid reasons for rolling need on an item that another member of the group can actually EQUIP right there.

 

They aren't. And if anyone on Harbinger server thinks those are valid reasons, please list your character names here so I can put you on ignore and not have to group with your selfish butt.

[stendarrs]

i always roll need on light armor & "biometric crystal alloy" and some pugs hate me for that, some even go so far as to kick and report me... well sorry but i'm still rolling need on what i want.

 

so stop whining and roll with me cuz thats how I roll!

 

Please take note of the fact that you stated "I'm still rolling need on what i WANT". Perhaps you should look up the definition of the words "need" and "want".

 

The biometric crystal alloy is the only thing that bugs me. I wait to see what others roll and if someone rolls "need" then I roll "need" and feel like a jerk for doing it. But, most people know that rolling need for the BCA is a d.i.c.k. move so they all roll greed and let the fates decide. I guess I wouldn't have a problem with this if you announced it at the beginning of the run before actually rolling. Somehow I have the feeling you get a lot of BCA's because you don't warn people before the roll. Then again, if you do warn everyone then I commend you for being up front and honest....even though we all know that you don't/aren't.

[stendarrs]

Not totally true. I can rip the mods out and put it in a piece of legacy gear and send to my alt....

 

I'm also gonna have to call BS on this one. I know that it can be done, but if you need gear for your alt, then play with your alt. With 8 available character slots you can have 1 of every AC and justify needing on everything so you can transfer the mods. Sorry, but this is just another d.i.c.k. move with a lame excuse.

[ThiborF]

First thread for me so here goes.

 

First off let me say I tried to find a suggestion thread, and if there is one that I didn't find, feel free to smack me on the head and give me directions.

 

With that out of the way I am wondering if the current Need & Greed system is good enough. I understand the general idea of it, with the honor system people roll need only when they actually need something. But does it work like this?

 

I play a Juggernaut and I'm so sick and tired of Marauders rolling need on Heavy Armor either because they don't realize they can't use it or because they justify need rolling by saying they will pry out the mods and use them. Is that a valid reason for need rolling, just to get the mods? Earlier this day I lost the Foeseeker's Body Armor to a Marauder who I think didn't even speak english at all. So his reason for need rolling is unknown.

 

And I understand rolling for companions is fine when no one else needs the item, but I've seen piles upon piles of people naming people that have need rolled gear for companions when someone else needed it for their own character. Some would say this is ok, others would not.

 

Anyway I digress, I would like to see a system where you could not press if the stats / armor type didn't match your class, the button being greyed out. Failing that I would at least want to see a system where you couldn't press need if you couldn't equip the item.

 

I know the honor system with Need & Greed is widely acknowledged but the internet tends to turn people into, less nice people, so many perfectly good guys could be screwed by a minor number of people that don't care whether or not they themselves can actually use the item in question.

 

This dragged on, and may have a "whiny" tone to it, I am aware. But I excuse myself for that seeing as it's not 10 minutes ago since I experienced this yet again.

 

Would love to hear other opinions on the matter of the current loot system.

 

SSDG

Same *stuff* Different Game

 

This discussion comes up in every game with a similar loot system. A few things to keep in mind:

 

1) Regardless if you think them greedy, a jerk, antisocial, or any other adjective you wish to throw in there, not everyone is going to necessarily define "need" and "greed" the same way you (that's a general "you") do

 

2) The OP called it "the honor system" but, it still boils down to one person assuming others are going to play by the same definitions of things that they do. If you truly want less drama and/or hurt feelings over loot issues there's one simple rule ... NEVER ASSUME.

 

3) Which leads to point three. If you join a run and nobody, including yourself, discusses how loot is to be handled prior to the first mob (or boss) being dropped, then before you think of blaming someone for rolling need on something you think they shouldn't have, look in the mirror and realize you could have said one or two simple things at the start of the run to potentially change that outcome. You chose not to, you take your chances.

 

4) Last, there are jerks out there that no matter if everyone is in agreement at the beginning of a run, they still might "ninja" something. I use the term "ninja" for those instances when a player has agreed to roll for loot one way and then opts to roll differently to benefit themselves. I do NOT use the term when nobody has said a word about expected loot rules for the run and somebody rolls "Need" to simply strip out mods or sell it to a vendor. As I started out saying, your definition of "need" isn't going to be everybody's.

 

Last two word reminder ...

Never assume

[BobaTed]

In my ideal MMO, anyone who wanted to play would have to take a comprehensive literacy, psychological stability, intelligence, maturity, and philosophy test/survey. The players would then get deposited onto servers based on grouping persons that have similar levels of literacy, stability, intelligence, maturity, and loot division policies. That is totally a pipe dream, though.

Yep, pipe-dream, especially since test-taking is a skill in its own right. Goonswarm would be all over that in a second.

 

That said, in my ideal MMO, there wouldn't be a system that seems designed to pit teammates against each other with a choice between what's economically rational (though not very "nice") vs. what's socially accepted but unenforceable (except maybe in an indirect, after-the-fact way). And that isn't a pipe-dream; there's at least one MMO out there that awards teammates independently and secretly with non-BoA gear, and lets players sort things out on the auction house (or on the spot, if people stick around after the action). I'm surprised it hasn't carried over to newer MMOs.

 

All this arguing about proper etiquette seems to miss two thngs; 1) that there are other ways of doing things that are at least as fair, and 2) that each of us can only control our own actions, but not anyone else's. So while I follow the same basic pattern as you (need only stuff I need, pass or greed on everything else), I have to chuckle a bit at those who rant and rail at anything else.

[BobaTed]

The biometric crystal alloy is the only thing that bugs me. I wait to see what others roll and if someone rolls "need" then I roll "need" and feel like a jerk for doing it. But, most people know that rolling need for the BCA is a d.i.c.k. move so they all roll greed and let the fates decide.

Interesting. Since it's used by just about every crafting profession, it seems like people would expect someone in the group to roll "need" on it. Why would it be a short-for-richard move?

[SlimsPicken]

i always roll need on light armor & "biometric crystal alloy" and some pugs hate me for that, some even go so far as to kick and report me... well sorry but i'm still rolling need on what i want.

 

so stop whining and roll with me cuz thats how I roll!

 

please add a list of characters and server to your sig.

 

it will make /ignoring you much easier, since you insist on acting like a knob end.

 

To the poster above- rolling "need" on BCA is a no-no because "greed" is the proper button for stuff that everyone can equally use, but not equip. Everyone who wants a crack at it rolls "greed" and lets the random numbers gods decide. Rolling "need" jumps you in line ahead of all the group who are considerate and rolled "greed", basically saying you "NEED" the item more than they do... so yeah, richard move.

 

Its common sense/courtesy, which of course, not many people seem to have nowdays.

Edited July 16, 2012 by SlimsPicken

[BobaTed]

To the poster above- rolling "need" on BCA is a no-no because "greed" is the proper button for stuff that everyone can equally use, but not equip. Everyone who wants a crack at it rolls "greed" and lets the random numbers gods decide. Rolling "need" jumps you in line ahead of all the group who are considerate and rolled "greed", basically saying you "NEED" the item more than they do... so yeah, richard move.

 

Its common sense/courtesy, which of course, not many people seem to have nowdays.

The end result would be exactly the same, though, if everyone rolled "need" on BCA from the start, and it would have the added benefit of completely avoiding all the loot ninja drama.

 

This is one of those edge cases where "common sense" isn't really all that sensical. In this particular case, the drop could conceivably be used by just about everyone in the group (assuming they all have a high enough crafting skill). If "common courtesy" says that you should only "need" items your character can use, then "common sense" suggests that BCA is one of the rare occasions where everyone should feel free to roll "need."

 

In fact, the only fair way to deal with BCA is for everyone to roll "need" on it, since everyone can use it (and odds are pretty good that someone will roll "need" on it anyway).

 

But, hey, I know people like their little rules of etiquette, even in cases like this where they make no sense.

 

(cue all the people who are ready to jump on anyone for ninjaing loot)

Edited July 16, 2012 by BobaTed

[MidichIorian]

You only need if your playable character, the one you are currently using, actually needs it. Everything els is a no-no in my book unless it's a companion run or people pay for loot.

[TheBetty]

I'm a Marauder, pulling out the mods for my gear doesn't even occur to me lol I see heavy, I click greed. Yeah sounds like stupidity on their part or just ninja loots.