Annihilation vs. Carnage PvE with Parses

[Thundergulch]

Real pro's use the first boss of SM EV to parse.

 

What is this , I don't even.......

[thrakkemarn]

Don't feed the troll.

[marshmallow]

I recently broke the 2k mark with Carnage.

 

It was a 2001 parse.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/10261

 

3rd one.

p.s using no raid buffs or anything is stupid because its not simulating a raid situation.

Edited August 9, 2012 by marshmallow

[Saferai]

Been Carnage for around a month now, close to BiS for both specs, just missing 26 might armorings in belt and bracers. Parses done with all 4 class buffs, a rakata might stim and rakata attack adrenals. Medium amount of world lag due to playing during high pop hours. All logs edited to eliminate the dps loss due to time taken to exit combat.

 

10 as annih (31/3/7) with the parameters the op wanted:

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/7510

 

Avg 1850

 

10 as carnage (5/31/5) *3/3 malice for rupture since smash is not used single target, same parameters.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/8313

 

Avg 1839

The carnage logs are probably very slightly lower than what I could do if I sat down and parsed 10 logs again as I've improved slightly since then. The variance on carnage seems higher overall by a degree of 20ish dps compared to annih, the cause likely being ataru procs and crit rng during gore. A special mention has to goto how absolutely dominant carnage is in the AoE department atm, talented smash + gored berserk massacre spam can pad meters like no other class I've played with.

 

So far the specs seem even. If you are 100s of dps off on one spec vs the other on the dummy it is probably a gear or a knowledge issue. Alot of ppl in this thread seem to say, I've played x spec since the start, I switched to Y for like an hour did 2 parses and it seemed worse. Well no ****? The time you put into min maxing your gear and play is going to show. I didn't really make the jump to carnage again this tier until I knew my gear could support it just as well as my annih gear. Even transitioning over to equal gear and having played carnage extensively before, I still improved my dps by around 100 just through practicing.

 

Here's another huge non-surprise, how you do your tests matter! Carnage's synergy with high damaging cooldowns should be fairly obvious to anyone who's actually tried parses with the parameters the OP discussed, on a 5 min run with only one BT carnage seemed to fall behind annih slightly compared to ~6 mins with two BTs lining up adrenals with BTs.

 

So what to take away from how we perform ops dummy tests effecting our results? Your raid size/raid comp/strengths and weaknesses of your raid group/strats you use/design of the content you are clearing ect will influence your success with either spec. If you want to get the most out of your class/spec learn both specs strengths and drawbacks and gauge them relative to your own raid and optimize accordingly.

 

Most surprising to me is that annih seems to scale better with an arp debuff present. 1990-2050 is consistent as annih where as the first hour worth of parses I did as carnage with someone to provide the arp debuff seemed to avg alot lower. I knew the burst during gore accounted for alot of damage but can the use of rupture + the gore sequences really put carnage's 0 mitigation damage at higher than the 40% of total damage done by annih's bleeds? Heres a fairly old log (still had one BM relic + matrix cube and crit to power ratio was very slightly less optimal) that I have saved of annih at 2030 with full class buffs rakata stim/adrenals and an arp debuff.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/7410

 

So is this why annih used to dominate on dpsmeter.com and a couple random forums threads? (note dpsmeter.com sucked ***) Because most of these 2k+ parses were done by stacking 3-4 arp debuffs on a boss that was relatively little more than a target dummy with the correct strat? At 4+ arp debuffs gore didnt mean ****. I gave carnage a try last tier as well as before KP was released just as I have this tier and let me tell you, in the my 1 tank 4 arp debuff raid it was *** compared to annih. Another factor to include is just how much annih has gotten worse with current content design + player performance. Back in early HM EC we annih didnt suffer the large periods of downtime you likely do now on fights like Z&T and Col Vorgath due to how much damage well geared raid full of competitive dps call put out now. This kind of downtime didn't really occur in NiM KP which ppl were always boasting #s from.

 

Luckily since then the arp debuff stacking has been addressed, as was carnage's issues with rage management, fury generation, and odd rotation. As noted by the recent patch, carnage is according to the devs (note hellllllllllla dont trust what devs say lol) performing within expectations so the bug with sever is going to remain non addressed. Carnage seems to be in a really good place now, infact I would daresay that annih needs more work with some pure quality of life improvements. More importantly Carnage is actually fun now, where as right up until gore being removed from the GCD it suffered from varying stages of awkwardness that made it less than enjoyable to play compared to a fully fleshed out and realized spec.

 

Thanks to the original poster for creating this thread as well as the various people contributing as switching to carnage has managed to keep me interested in raiding in a game where hm ec takes an hr and a half and we RE all the loot for mats. Special thanks to vexo for showing the use of rupture as carnage, some of my first couple hours as carnage this tier were spent testing the rotation with and sans rupture to see which performed better thanks to him, it's nice to see some innovative play rewarded and affirmed. Third thanks to all the people willing to actually look at logs and not just the # someone slaps onto it, or the ******es who actually post how they did their logs up front, good data is always transparent.

 

As for a verdict? Too close to call. The amount of data we have put together can't really be called statistically significant even if it does show some consistency within an expected amount of variation. Personally I'll be staying carnage until NiM EC is released. Not only because I believe overall it performs better throughout the instance compared to annih if your dps core is full of capable and competitive players, but mostly because it's new and exciting compared to annih atm for me which alot of players really need in the current climate of non progression.

 

If I get the time, and more importantly the will to play this game during its content drought I will try and dig up the logs showing the difference in avgs of 5min parses vs 6min parse and maybe try and bang out 5-10 logs of each spec with an arp debuff or go through some carnage logs manually and add up what % of carnages total damage done does not benefit from an arp debuff, to see if my feeling about annih scaling better with one is accurate. I'll also try to get an up to date askmrrobot profile up. Maybe when my practice partner gets back from her vacation she'll want to work on her lethality play and that will nudge me along.

 

Now someone get in here with the nm pilgrim buff, exo stim/adrenals, an arp debuff and 4 bloodthirsts and break 2100 so we have something to shoot for

Edited August 10, 2012 by Saferai

[terencechan]

Carnage was never meant to be played on a dummy. It's knowing when to hold back when max dmg is not needed and when to melt with 5000 dmg parses in tight windows.

[Fracta]

Carnage was never meant to be played on a dummy. It's knowing when to hold back when max dmg is not needed and when to melt with 5000 dmg parses in tight windows.

 

The ****?

 

Max damage is needed 100% of the time.

[ekimmak]

The ****?

 

Max damage is needed 100% of the time.

 

Then you are going to be extremely disappointed in every DPS class. No class, not even pyrotech, can reach maximum damage all of the time. Cooldowns, heavy hitting attacks, relics and adrenals are what bring in maximum damage, and I'm pretty sure you can't use those 100% of the time.

[Fracta]

Then you are going to be extremely disappointed in every DPS class. No class, not even pyrotech, can reach maximum damage all of the time. Cooldowns, heavy hitting attacks, relics and adrenals are what bring in maximum damage, and I'm pretty sure you can't use those 100% of the time.

 

"Carnage was never meant to be played on a dummy. It's knowing when to hold back when max dmg is not needed and when to melt with 5000 dmg parses in tight windows. "

 

So i'm guessing you 100% agree with that statement.

[ekimmak]

"Carnage was never meant to be played on a dummy. It's knowing when to hold back when max dmg is not needed and when to melt with 5000 dmg parses in tight windows. "

 

So i'm guessing you 100% agree with that statement.

 

I haven't the slightest clue. All I know is that I enjoy my combat sentinel more than my annihilation marauder. The high damage blows are far more satisfying than a consistent stream of DoT that is easily mixed up with Quinn's attack.

[Thundergulch]

Carnage was never meant to be played on a dummy. It's knowing when to hold back when max dmg is not needed and when to melt with 5000 dmg parses in tight windows.

 

Say what? When is max damage "not needed"?

Aside from trash, and the first couple seconds while the tank gains aggro.

[Hydrol]

Ok i wanna know and please dont get on me but this rotation for carnage ive seen every where, but its not the one i use i dont get why everyone throws out vicious slash and dont throw me down till you try it, I do almost the same priority rotation but when i pop beserk (making sure my dot and armor penetrattion is up) i then massacre then instantly spam viscious slash for a bit, it does more damage than massacre, now im not that exp at the game but im only in columi/a lil rakata and im comparing when i do hm ev on the boss where you each get a mob, well i can down my guy as quickly as any of the other black-hole and above geared people now they may not know there classes but my guild seems to be a minmaxxing guild well some of us, but yea i was curious if someone would try this out and tell me wat you think...and i guess i should list a full priority

 

i open with my jump then my rage buillder battering assault, i then may throw in an assault just to get a lil extra rage, i then immmediately massacre, gore, and put up my dot,scream, i then make sure massacre is still up then ravage, then ill beserk hopefully have it built up by then, and then start spamming vicious slash while im beserking and keeping up massacre to me this would put out the most damage and makes the most sense to me, as it makes it cost nothing and does a ton of damage, dont bash it till you try it but thats my priority and i can down my guy way b4 most people on that boss again thats what im comparing it too i have no idea how else tocheck my dps...but yea tell me wat you think

[Aurojiin]

Ok i wanna know and please dont get on me but this rotation for carnage ive seen every where, but its not the one i use i dont get why everyone throws out vicious slash and dont throw me down till you try it, I do almost the same priority rotation but when i pop beserk (making sure my dot and armor penetrattion is up) i then massacre then instantly spam viscious slash for a bit, it does more damage than massacre

That's all very well, except that Vicious Slash doesn't get a 1-second GCD and an effective 1 rage pip cost during Berserk, does it?

 

Neither does it force Ataru procs.

 

i then immmediately massacre, gore, and put up my dot,scream, i then make sure massacre is still up then ravage

Ew. Putting up your DoT is about the worst thing you could possibly do during your Gore window. You get 4.5s of no armour mitigation on your attacks, so you need to use your biggest hitters during that time. While Rupture does a little more damage than Massacre, it does much less up front, so you'll have wasted the buff on a relatively small amount of damage.

[Hydrol]

but vicious slash does get the reduction with beserk, and i dont get why you wouldnt put that dot up rupture does alot of dmge and you continue witht the rotation i dont know like i said try it out b4 you knock it

[Aurojiin]

but vicious slash does get the reduction with beserk, and i dont get why you wouldnt put that dot up rupture does alot of dmge and you continue witht the rotation i dont know like i said try it out b4 you knock it

Touche on Vicious Slash. That'll teach me to read the tooltip better. Massacre is still much better though; 30% crit damage increase from spec, and the chance to proc two Ataru hits.

 

I didn't say don't put the DoT up. I said don't put it up during your Gore window, because that's a tremendous waste of the armour penetration.

[IAmViiOLENT]

Dinged 50 on my mara the other day and legacy transferred over BiS for both specs (then of course ran hm ec for the hilts).

 

I've ended up doing a ton of parsing with it, and I've come out to between 1870-1920 for annihilation, and in carnage pretty much a constant 1900. I just cleared out my logs before patch last night, but once its back up; Ill try to post up some parses. I feel like there could possibly be a bit extra damage in anni than I'm getting, my opener goes:

Force leap > Deadly Saber (In FL Animation) > Battering Assault > Rupture > Annihilate > Ravage

 

From there, I prioritize Annihilate > Deadly Saber > Rupture > rage builder if less than 7 rage and Annihilate has less than 3s left on CD > Vicious Slash > Ravage

 

Pretty much, what I've noticed is that I can do the post 3 stacks of annihilator rotation perfectly and never have any problems, but during that phase where I have one and then 2 stacks of Annihilator I have a hard time with the rotation and fumble on it quite often.

Any tips are appreciated!

 

Gear (For anyone interested, and yes.. my char's name is Opfotm)

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/17af74fc-464a-4d67-9a2c-4cea52ee1f0e

[Hydrol]

Touche on Vicious Slash. That'll teach me to read the tooltip better. Massacre is still much better though; 30% crit damage increase from spec, and the chance to proc two Ataru hits.

 

I didn't say don't put the DoT up. I said don't put it up during your Gore window, because that's a tremendous waste of the armour penetration.

 

yea i messed that up i usually do, put my dot up then i gore and go with rotation and yea ive been testing out using massacre over vicious slash, but the spamming part of vicous slash or massacre during beserk oh and i also grab the talent in the annhilation tree making both cost one rage instead of three while beserking, thats a ton of dmge therre would you not agree then when my beserk ends go back to normal priority rotation

[arkitip]

yea i messed that up i usually do, put my dot up then i gore and go with rotation and yea ive been testing out using massacre over vicious slash, but the spamming part of vicous slash or massacre during beserk oh and i also grab the talent in the annhilation tree making both cost one rage instead of three while beserking, thats a ton of dmge therre would you not agree then when my beserk ends go back to normal priority rotation

 

Massacre is still, and always will be, better to use than Vicious Slash. 1 it provides several buffs to other talents. 2 it auto procs Ataru form. 3 the auto proc is independent of the ICD Ataru form procs, meaning each Massacre could proc 2 Ataru form strikes (and often does).

[Hydrol]

Massacre is still, and always will be, better to use than Vicious Slash. 1 it provides several buffs to other talents. 2 it auto procs Ataru form. 3 the auto proc is independent of the ICD Ataru form procs, meaning each Massacre could proc 2 Ataru form strikes (and often does).

 

that has to be wrong, when you do it, you cant proc another ataru strike for 1.5 seconds like unless the tool tip is wrong, no massacre only does 1 ataru strike but makes it proc 100% then you have an extra 30% chance to your already 20% for ataru strike so you should use your vicious slash imo, this just makes more sense to me, but no massacre cant proc two, you have a 1.5 sec b4 ataru can proc again...

[arkitip]

that has to be wrong, when you do it, you cant proc another ataru strike for 1.5 seconds like unless the tool tip is wrong, no massacre only does 1 ataru strike but makes it proc 100% then you have an extra 30% chance to your already 20% for ataru strike so you should use your vicious slash imo, this just makes more sense to me, but no massacre cant proc two, you have a 1.5 sec b4 ataru can proc again...

 

It's absolutely correct, and if you actually upload a parse to torparse you'll see it yourself.

 

In fact, here's an example http://www.torparse.com/l/24827

 

You'll see, starting at 20:09 I Force Leap in, it procs Ataru. Then I Zealous Strike and it doesn't. I follow up with 4x Blade Rush and get 6 Ataru procs from it.

 

Further down in the log, starting at 20:17 and ending at 20:18 - I Blade Rush, proc 2 Ataru hits, and then spam 6x Slash and only ever proc Ataru 1x out of the 6.

 

The AUTOMATIC Ataru proc from Massacre is SEPARATE from the 1.5 sec Ataru proc.

 

Also, the tooltip damage for my Blade Rush is 1646-1886 plus the auto proc for 559-623. My Slash tooltip is 1889-2163. Even without the benefit of a 30% increase in crit damage and the chance at 10% more damage due to talents, and even excluding the possibility of 2 Ataru procs, Blade Rush (Massacre) STILL does more guaranteed damage.

[Hydrol]

It's absolutely correct, and if you actually upload a parse to torparse you'll see it yourself.

 

In fact, here's an example http://www.torparse.com/l/24827

 

You'll see, starting at 20:09 I Force Leap in, it procs Ataru. Then I Zealous Strike and it doesn't. I follow up with 4x Blade Rush and get 6 Ataru procs from it.

 

Further down in the log, starting at 20:17 and ending at 20:18 - I Blade Rush, proc 2 Ataru hits, and then spam 6x Slash and only ever proc Ataru 1x out of the 6.

 

The AUTOMATIC Ataru proc from Massacre is SEPARATE from the 1.5 sec Ataru proc.

 

Also, the tooltip damage for my Blade Rush is 1646-1886 plus the auto proc for 559-623. My Slash tooltip is 1889-2163. Even without the benefit of a 30% increase in crit damage and the chance at 10% more damage due to talents, and even excluding the possibility of 2 Ataru procs, Blade Rush (Massacre) STILL does more guaranteed damage.

 

so the tool tip for ataru form is wrong then? cause massacre does not say it adds an additional proc just the one, and the tooltip for ataru says that an ataru swing can happen only every 1.5 secs?

[Hydrol]

but yes i do see this, and how would i do this parse thing myself id like to see the damage i do, and try to better my rotation, and when i beserk then would i still spam massacre then until its over, its still a hard hitting technique then

[IAmViiOLENT]

Annihilation Parse- 10m 50s long, One Bloodthirst, No Adrenals, No armor Debuff

http://www.torparse.com/a/25530/time/1348950942/1348951593

1872.94 DPS (after editing out pause after parse, pre edit it was at 1843.15)

 

Missing offhand hilt, do you think the OH hilt will improve my DPS by a bit more (I have an Advanced Might Hilt 25, will be getting Advanced Might Hilt 26 next week)---- And yes, this was me testing an internal proc relic vs kinetic proc relic, internal is higher dps; just got a better rotation or something down this parse

 

Also, I noticed that the proc relics were better dps for me than two WH relics. Weird?

Edited September 30, 2012 by IAmViiOLENT

[Dacer]

I did a 8 min parse as carnage in my pvp gear and got a 1580dps parse.

 

but since burst is king in pvp... I did 3132dps using my opening rotation.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Dacer

[IAmViiOLENT]

Another Annihilation parse, with Adrenals and Bloodthirsts... from 1872 to 1910 dps. Honestly, not a huge difference between BT's and Adrenals and none. *shrug*

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/25836/time/1349030326/1349030649

[IAmViiOLENT]

And....

2009 DPS

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/25942/time/1349132738/1349133092

 

Im loving anni and my mara. <3

Edited October 1, 2012 by IAmViiOLENT