Thundergulch Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) i dont have a parse for last weeks NMP but i was carnage and beat our 3 other anni rauders by a few % carnage may look worse on a target dummy, but.... solo parse on a target dummy doesnt have armor debuffs. and all carnage damage is kinetic and mitigated by armor. dont knock it till u try it in a raid. we are doing NMP i'll save the parse and link it up in here.... i'll see if i can screen shot EDIT: this was with me stacking STR--full raid buffed to over 2200STR (for testing) Looks like they are combined in MOX--click the spoiler for most of my parse. We were close to the enrage timer, but we were victorious for the 2nd week in a row! Battle #6 - Duration: 390.885 Start Time: 07/16/2012 09:44:20 End Time: 07/16/2012 09:50:51 Enemies: The Thing from the Stars The Nightmare Pilgrim Total Damage Dealt: 555917 (1422 dps and was top of the parse, there was a sniper that was less than 100dps from me bringing the rain) Bleeding (Physical): 209656 The Thing from the Stars: 106859 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 102797 Ravage: 86819 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 52532 The Thing from the Stars: 34287 Annihilate: 83613 The Thing from the Stars: 46666 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 36947 Vicious Slash: 46721 The Thing from the Stars: 25740 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 20981 Assault: 43660 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 22348 The Thing from the Stars: 21312 Vicious Throw: 20836 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 20836 Rupture: 20743 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 10833 The Thing from the Stars: 9910 Battering Assault: 19490 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 9807 The Thing from the Stars: 9683 Force Charge: 12527 The Thing from the Stars: 6907 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 5620 Cloak of Pain: 11852 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 11852 Total Damage Received: 94309 The Nightmare Pilgrim: 94309 Nightmare Paranoia: 52460 Recharge Shield: 40738 Toxic Gas: 1111 Mental Assault: 0 Melee dps in this fight have to work their butts off lol... dodging AOE's and interrupting Gore Edited July 17, 2012 by Thundergulch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestulan Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Okay, here is a parse of my damage as Carnage spec on Karagga. http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/bc482e78-db44-40ad-8d11-dd8428c0a398/overview#d=0,f=35,b=1 Almost 1740 DPS. As annihilation, here is my parse. http://www.torparse.com/a/2216 This one was against the dummy, before waiting for my last DoTs to tick and waiting to get out of combat my DPS was at about 1600. (Please note I was using a Rakata Might Stim and all buffs for both fights.) My gear is like this: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/54da0b28-ae3b-4ce6-bc95-d7f08790f0b8 I honestly I think annihilation gives less DPS but more utility, (the extra heals for raid) While carnage gives more DPS. I'm fairly certain I can do 1800 DPS as carnage on the dummy considering it is a non raid scenario. Right now (at least for me) Carnage>Annihilation. This is coming from someone who specced into annihilation as soon as I unlocked the skill trees at level 10, and never respecced until a few days ago. Set the target to just Karraga and your dps drops to 1671. You're also comparing a training dummy parse vs a Raid parse where you almost assuredly have an armor debuff present. Additionally, based on your Anni combat log, you mis-used Bloodthirst. Normally you want to build 30 Fury, activate Bloodthirst, then immediately Frenzy and activate Berserk. This gives 100% crit to buffed dots as well as having your Juyo stacks already built (you look to have had 1 stack before Bloodthirst). Add the extra damage the armor reduction would give, subtract extra offhand hits from the bugged dummy, use your Bloodthirst/Berserk better, and I bet you find they are essentially equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolenthar Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Unarguably that's an interesting conversation. I guess I'll give it a try and see what I can dish out in carnage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Set the target to just Karraga and your dps drops to 1671. Yeah, but doing that makes no sense, you want to know the total dps you did during a certain fight, not narrow it down to certain mobs. HERE is a parse from last Tuesday's Nightmare KP run where I did 2442dps during the Fabricator fight after being stunlocked for 30 seconds (I actually spiked for over 4k dps at one point 1/2way thru the fight.) But later that night, if you look at my parse on the Karagga fight HERE I did 1453 dps. Keep in mind this is Nightmare mode, not story mode like the carnage parse above me,I'd be interested in seeing a carnage parse for Nightmare mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshmallow Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Yeah, but doing that makes no sense, you want to know the total dps you did during a certain fight, not narrow it down to certain mobs. HERE is a parse from last Tuesday's Nightmare KP run where I did 2442dps during the Fabricator fight after being stunlocked for 30 seconds (I actually spiked for over 4k dps at one point 1/2way thru the fight.) But later that night, if you look at my parse on the Karagga fight HERE I did 1453 dps. Keep in mind this is Nightmare mode, not story mode like the carnage parse above me,I'd be interested in seeing a carnage parse for Nightmare mode. I'll parse myself on NiM Pilgrim and HM Kephess tonight, and will post it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Awesome! Can't wait to see how the 2 builds fare against each other on that fight Good Luck in downing him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malimoo Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Darn they are making me dps on my sorc tonight.... I cant upload my rauder dps on NMP sorry fellas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeLA Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I'm Carnage with all BH implants save hilts, which are rakata, and all +pwr augments except 1 +str augment. Have been doing a lot of mod juggling and dps testing. My results thus far show the exact balance of power vs. crit or surge vs accuracy having only very minor impact on dps output. My method and results are as follows: I do approximately 10 minute tests fully raid buffed, berserk at the beginning, middle and end. Have recorded about 15 tests, aborted additional ones where I really blew my rotation for whatever reason. My best of several attempts: 1756dps over 650.41 seconds with 30.62% (187) crit, 79.13% (450) surge and 110.93% (114) special accuracy. http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/541b3af2-9cc6-495f-bc57-348568b0da48/overview#d=0,f=1,t=1,b=1 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/fa91eb4e-024b-405a-b063-c6b4dd6b9ef2 I tried basically getting rid of all crit in exchange for power by installing all BH level power/surge mods and enhancements save 1 BH lvl crit/surge enhancement +27 pts of crit on the matrix cube--68 pts of crit, or. 26.17% raid buffed. The best I achieved over several attempts was 1724dps. With the lower 26.17% crit set-up, I dumped about 170 points of surge for an equal amount of accuracy--(75.82% surge and 115.41% special accuracy) and was able to hit 1744.2 dps. Surprised me, because while high surge has less and less impact due to DR, increased accuracy should do virtually nothing against the dummy since it doesn't defend and takes the maximum number of offhand hits regardless. Not sure if it's an anomaly, or if sufficiently high accuracy does, in addition to boosting the number of offhand hits, actually increase raw damage if your score brings the target to an effective defense % less than 0. Throughout the 15 tests I've recorded so far, dps is within about a 30 point window. Next test will be with the higher crit (30.62%), higher special accuracy (115.41%) and lower surge (75.82%). But for purpose of anni vs carnage debate, exact mod balance doesn't have enough impact to factor into the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrankyBuddha Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hey guys, I appreciate the feedback and parser sharing in the thread! I wanted to share my results after running Carnage in our HM EC tonight, vs my last results as Anni. 2 weeks ago in the same gear as Annihilation on Firebrand/Stormcaller doing Stormcaller and DDs, my damage output as Anni was 1395 DPS. Tonight in the same role with the same gear as Carnage after tweaking my rotation and improving a little, I pulled 1485, doing the same thing in the same fight, so it looks like the armor debuffs and burst benefit the spec, at least in this particular fight Furthermore, I was able to improve my dps on the dummy with my improved rotation to 1460, which compared to my original Anni mark of 1524 is a much narrower gap. The conclusion I can draw from this is although we know the top DPS marauders are running Annihilation, that Carnage CAN still be played as a competitive raid DPS spec. It will also be very interesting to see what kinds of numbers it can put out if the two known bugs that seriously hinder the damage output are resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolenthar Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I've decided to give it a go. Even though I consider Anni as a very solid spec for PvE, trying Carnage couldn't hurt much (apart from the consecutive respec costs which are quite low anyway). Here is the spec I tried. First of all, I was quite impressed by the simplicity of the carnage spec. It's really straight forward, there is not much things to pay attention to (blood frenzy mostly, but once you get massacre you know when the buff will sure be there) and the rage management seems way easier than it is with Anni, especially with Enraged slash spec. Nothing really drains your rage and even if you have less way to recharge it (only battering assault + blood frenzy on top of the "auto attack"), it's really easy to handle it. Not sure if i like it, at least with Anni I have the feeling to work a bit for it especially when my Annihilate is on 6 seconds cd. That being said, after a few dozen of minutes of test, my dps output was in the 2% of Anni (1650 against 1700) and considering my gear is not optimal (surge around 74%) I guess I can definitely enter in the same dps bracket. As I'm doing a lot of PvP nowadays, I see where Carnage spec can be superior, and admittedly the gcd of 0.5 seconds when berserk is active is refreshing (the gcd should be like that all the time tbh ) and I can see how fast you can cut through players with this + armor pen. At least, I'm gonna try that for a week and see how it goes. Denova today will be interesting. Edited July 17, 2012 by Nolenthar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeLA Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Having done some comparison tests annihilation vs carnage and studied a lot of others tests, I wonder how much of the fact that the marauders running annihilation fare highly on the rankings and there are no carnage is due a huge spread in damage output or a big margin in population numbers between the two specs. There are still far more annihilation marauders than carnage, because until 1.2 or even 1.3 there was no question that annihilation was stronger and a lot of people aren't going to switch specs once they've committed. Though the balance may be changing, Carnage still lags way behind in population, especially in the endgame crowd where a lot of people have been perfecting their style since launch or soon after. Edited July 17, 2012 by TradeLA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrankyBuddha Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm glad that this thread has inspired other people to try Carnage too. Its a really fun build and I feel like if they fix the two bugs it will be REALLY close between the two specs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeLA Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Think they fixed "execute" in last night's patch-- <<Execute: This skill now specifically affects Force Scream, Vicious Slash, and Massacre. Please note that these changes are not reflected in the ability text.>> Initial tests show a very small 1-2% dps bump, but have to test more to be sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Gonna run Denova tonight,not sure if SM or HM, but I will post my parse afterwards. I changed my gear (again) to max out power augments. I'll also use the test dummy to see what I get versus my all STR augment test the other day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malimoo Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/abd383d1-1816-49b4-a391-8941928b8ea3/overview#d=0,f=2,t=1,b=1 a re test after they fixed execute my dps appears to have gone up a lot even with the same crit heavy build i'm using heres my current gear as well: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/41dbe9a2-c138-41d5-a6e9-478f98e1d57b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dritescythe Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I've been running some numbers in spreadsheets for carnage, and you actually want more crit and surge, since ataru only benefits by .092 damage per point of power, and your offhand doesn't benefit at all, but both can benefit from crits. Fully buffed in basically full campaign, of the over 900 points given to us for the secondary stat (Power vs Crit) at full campaign and stim, I estimate about 600 should go to critical, and the rest to power. I haven't yet calculated in precisely the effect of accuracy since some bosses have much higher defense and others have very little. Further the automatic critical on force scream would reduce it slightly as well, so probably in the 450-550 range is about right. This holds mostly true regardless of the strength of your surge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshmallow Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Okay, so I just ran a NiM KP and parsed myself on Karagga. http://www.torparse.com/a/2716 1815 DPS on Karagga. Go to boss fights then to the 19:45:56 - 19:50:58 section. As you can see Carnage is beast. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Okay, so I just ran a NiM KP and parsed myself on Karagga. http://www.torparse.com/a/2716 1815 DPS on Karagga. Go to boss fights then to the 19:45:56 - 19:50:58 section. As you can see Carnage is beast. That is all. oooh very nice!! I ran normal mode EC tonight... not much in there to get a steady parse really, since I'm mobile almost constantly. Hopefully I will get a NM KP later this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salionus Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) Okay, so I just ran a NiM KP and parsed myself on Karagga. http://www.torparse.com/a/2716 1815 DPS on Karagga. Go to boss fights then to the 19:45:56 - 19:50:58 section. As you can see Carnage is beast. That is all. But only 1651 DPS on Karagga. ------------------------------------------------------------------ My first time doing NiM KP last week. 1947 DPS 1875 DPS on Karagga. I think annihilation definitely puts out more DPS on this boss. Edited July 18, 2012 by Salionus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrankyBuddha Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 So I made some gear upgrades, dropped a little bit of the 'bonus' accuracy into more Crit Rating and Surge, and ran another parse on the ops dummy. Results: 1621.3 http://www.torparse.com/a/2801 I messed up one burst rotation (effectively had a gore get off like 1 massacre and a scream due to rage choking myself without thinking) but other than that this was a pretty good run. I was inclined to parse again after doing our HM EC tonight and being top dps in the group on tanks and kephess himself, which are the only 2 fights that I feel melee dps can really have a close to 'honest' idea of their output. Now that I'm full blackhole/campaign minus the boots, my goal is going to be to try to obtain some bis mods for my gear to maximize my power/str, while keeping crit above 37% buffed and surge more or less about the same (77%). The road to 1700 begins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolenthar Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 So as I said, I went Carnage for yesterday's EC. I was also specced Carnage for a run in LI HM and a standard run in BH dailies. My conclusion is that both spec are rather equal in term of dps. Carnage will go higher in some conditions, Anni will go higher in other conditions. I however find Carnage plain boring, the rotation is at best childish (your biggest source of damage is massacre, then ataru forum - automatic attack - and then force scream) so I found myself spamming massacre, using force scream when off cd, and carnage from time to time. After 2 hours I was already bored. That comes to personal preference here, no judgement or whatever. On Toth, Anni could parse higher, and same on Stormcaller. I still think Carnage does better on low mitigation encounters, where Anni will show higher numbers on high mitigation bosses (ops) due to the internal damage. The armor debuff is good, but it's only up for 3 GCD or 1 force scream and 1 carnage. Also survivability wise, I feel a lot more useful on Anni as I heal for decent amount the whole group. And last but not least, the ability to interrupt by myself most abilities and always be off cd as Anni makes a difference. In brief, DPS wise you should play the spec you prefer, it won't make much a difference, but clearly challenging wise I would go Anni any time of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 But only 1651 DPS on Karagga. There is no point in breaking down individual targets when this entire fight consists of Karagga AND mouse droids. that's like saying he sucks because he only did 163 dps on the mouse droids. 1815 dps on this fight is pretty sweet. Good Job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrankyBuddha Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 In brief, DPS wise you should play the spec you prefer, it won't make much a difference, but clearly challenging wise I would go Anni any time of the day. Not saying anything about your abilitiy at all here, but I dont really think theres anything 'challenging' about anni. Its just keep bleeds up and then use ravage, vicious slash, and annihilate when theyre available. To be honest, its been MORE challenging to me to try to optimize carnage, because as opposed to having to watch 1 debuff on a boss I have to watch for 2 to 3 procs on myself, and time everything around them efficiently. But like you said, its really a preference thing. I would certainly say that spamming massacre when its up is the same as spamming vicious slash as a rage dump until 3 stack annihilator, the obvious difference being that berserk makes massacre absolutely hilarious. I also wouldnt mind seeing your parse from tanks because Ive been blowing away my anni numbers as carnage on stormcaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolenthar Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Not saying anything about your abilitiy at all here, but I dont really think theres anything 'challenging' about anni. Its just keep bleeds up and then use ravage, vicious slash, and annihilate when theyre available. To be honest, its been MORE challenging to me to try to optimize carnage, because as opposed to having to watch 1 debuff on a boss I have to watch for 2 to 3 procs on myself, and time everything around them efficiently. But like you said, its really a preference thing. I would certainly say that spamming massacre when its up is the same as spamming vicious slash as a rage dump until 3 stack annihilator, the obvious difference being that berserk makes massacre absolutely hilarious. I also wouldnt mind seeing your parse from tanks because Ive been blowing away my anni numbers as carnage on stormcaller. There is more timing involved and more energy management in Anni, in my opinion, the fact that you have more keybindings as well. But let's be fair, it's a video game, nothing is challening. I find however carnage more repetitive, as you really does spam massacre a lot, and any parse will show it as it's your main source of damage, whereas in anni the damage is better balanced between the dots, annihilate, carnage, slash whereas your main source of damage in carnage is massacre, ataru (auto) and force scream. As you say it, it's an opinion, and sure after barely a few hours playing carnage my performance on the tank can't have been representative of the possibilities. There is as well a lot of class synergy involved, and if you don't have an armor debuffer in your raid (jug, as we generally raid with 2 sins) then it will lower your dps. However, taste wins, and I will sure try carnage another day where my dps won't be as needed as it was yesterday in Denova (and thus doing a bit less for learning purpose won't be crippling). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 1584 DPS on the Ops dummy, just now.I usually get 1600 dps give or take with THIS build and gear spec on the dummy... it varies here and there.Did 1350 on Stormcaller last night in story mode.. which seems pretty low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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