Please address Merc and Operative DPS Tree

[Khoraji]

But taking away the sorcs burst and their resource management (which never was a problem) was pretty much.

For the first step it would have been enough to just fix the double fast DI bug and not nerfing everything at once.

At least giving them a def cd would have been nice.

As a sorc heal I spend most of the time running or in the spawn.

 

Sorcs are def the squishiest of all the healers. But you have more utility as well with the pull, interrupts, stuns, shields, HoTs, best AOE heals, and the potential healing #'s are above both Merc and Ops. Its just your dead more often.

 

But a sorc with a guard and LoS skills is extremely potent.

[coldserpent]

Zoeller didn't seem to understand basic mechanics of this game, and was a PR disaster. Good riddance, and I hope he never works on anything else I play.

 

I agree. He was like Jeff "Witch" Hickman of Warhammer Online infamy, back when that MMO's patch 1.2(it actually was patch 1.2 as well) came out.

[Darth_Philar]

Sorcs are def the squishiest of all the healers. But you have more utility as well with the pull, interrupts, stuns, shields, HoTs, best AOE heals, and the potential healing #'s are above both Merc and Ops. Its just your dead more often.

 

But a sorc with a guard and LoS skills is extremely potent.

 

I just need to correct your list of utilities:

We have 1 interrupt (on a 12 second CD)

We have 1 stun (on a 60 second CD)

We have 1 HoT that sucks

[Laforet]

What are you talking about? Healers are the only class that really gets a benefit from expertise at all. The bonus dmg and the dmg mitigation completely cancel each other out while the bonus to healing is a pure bonus.

 

Healers were way OP pre 1.2, except OPS. I am a merc healer and we are doing just fine, and I know plenty of sorc healers that are doing great as well.

 

Maybe you are right. Then why they didnt first modify expertise, THEN correct the bug that allowed sorcs to double dip BEFORE just nerfing the class?

 

The impact was too strong, and if healing and sorcs healers were overpowered pre 1.2, they are underpowered now.

 

Why dont change step by step?

 

Balance the game is like cooking, you add some salt some spice there some groovy until you hit the flavour you want, not the crazy rollercoaster they did with 1.2.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Laforet

[iphobia]

What are you talking about? Healers are the only class that really gets a benefit from expertise at all. The bonus dmg and the dmg mitigation completely cancel each other out while the bonus to healing is a pure bonus.

 

Healers were way OP pre 1.2, except OPS. I am a merc healer and we are doing just fine, and I know plenty of sorc healers that are doing great as well.

 

The part on Expertise only bringing a benefit for heals would be true buuuuuuut...

Factor in trauma and here you go.

 

 

With 1195 Expertise you get:

 

PvP Dmg Boost: 22.66%

PvP Dmg Reduction: 18.47%

PvP Heal Boost: 12.52%

Trauma: 30.00%

 

 

A 2000 Hit from a target with 1195 Expertise on a target with 1195 Expertise

This factors: PvP Dmg Boost, PvP Dmg Reduction

This does not factor: PvP Heal Boost, Trauma

 

Base damage: 2000.00

Damage after boost: 2453.20

Damage after reduction: 2000.09

 

 

A 2000 Heal from a target with 1195 Expertise

This factors: PvP Heal Boost, Trauma

This does not factor: PvP Dmg Boost, PvP Dmg Reduction

 

Base heal: 2000

Heal after boost: 2250.4

Heal after trauma: 1575.28

 

 

--> We can say that the damage bonus gets cancelled out by the damage reduction, but the heal reduction from trauma is bigger than the heal bonus.

 

 

(Try it ingame. On my Sorc, while not having Trauma up, my Dark Infusion will crit heal for ~6k while a crit heal with Trauma on me heals for ~4.8k)

 

 

Anyways, 3 nerfs for a class/spec in one patch is just plain stupid and they obviously didn't test this before putting it on the live servers.

Edited July 11, 2012 by iphobia

[Laforet]

Sorcs are def the squishiest of all the healers. But you have more utility as well with the pull, interrupts, stuns, shields, HoTs, best AOE heals, and the potential healing #'s are above both Merc and Ops. Its just your dead more often.

 

But a sorc with a guard and LoS skills is extremely potent.

 

There you have it.

 

Any healer whos DEAD MORE OFTEN is underpowered in PvP. No matter how much healing he can put out.

 

You see PvP is based on focus zerging and quick switches. Most of the time (not always but 90% of the time) one team try to assist train the opposite healer because the healer is the guy who counters the focus zerg (and PvP is based on focus zerg).

 

So if healer A dies faster than healers B and C, healer A is underpowered in PvP because he will be easier to zerg and after hes dead his team will fall soon after.

 

PvP isnt about healing numbers, PvP is about staying alive.

 

Dead people dont defend nodes.

 

Dead people dont cap.

 

Dead people dont call inc.

 

Dead people dont carry balls.

 

Saying "sages r fine bcz they put high numbar but die hehe" actually pinpoints our underpowered status IN PvP.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Laforet

[ArchangelLBC]

Honestly Commando (Merc) DPS needs nothing but some utility to be entirely viable. They already gave gunnery (arsenal) the Resource regen mechanic from the Vanguard tactics tree. Just give them Hold the Line in place of tenacious defense, maybe include an immunity to interrupts with the ability if it's not already there, and Gunnery Commandos and Arsenal Mercs will become very powerful.

 

In the Commando Assault/Merc Pyrotech tree, just turn charged bolts and it's mirror into instant abilities with 2s cooldown and their damage and mobility will go up quite nicely.

[Motoeric]

Concealment is in a good spot it just needs some energy management love.

 

Also lethality is good but they need to give us a reason to roll lethality on an operative rather than a sniper.

 

DoTs need to proc tac advantage or something. That or give us an offensive dispel or a real execute

[Sookster]

There you have it.

 

Any healer whos DEAD MORE OFTEN is underpowered in PvP. No matter how much healing he can put out.

 

You see PvP is based on focus zerging and quick switches. Most of the time (not always but 90% of the time) one team try to assist train the opposite healer because the healer is the guy who counters the focus zerg (and PvP is based on focus zerg).

 

So if healer A dies faster than healers B and C, healer A is underpowered in PvP because he will be easier to zerg and after hes dead his team will fall soon after.

 

PvP isnt about healing numbers, PvP is about staying alive.

 

Dead people dont defend nodes.

 

Dead people dont cap.

 

Dead people dont call inc.

 

Dead people dont carry balls.

 

Saying "sages r fine bcz they put high numbar but die hehe" actually pinpoints our underpowered status IN PvP.

 

My healer operative usually goes a WZ with 0 death, sometimes 1-2 death, there's some good sorcs that goes about 6-10 deaths (last night we gave a sage some hell and he died 15 times!). The sorc needs some escorts to get their job done, whereas an oper can vanish, heal on the move toss up shield probe which boost self-healing and being able to cast surgical probe at the same time as injection finishes casting without going through another GCD (same way as casting explosive probe while casting take cover) which obviously is a glitch.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Sookster

[Gidoru]

Concealment is fine.

 

This.

 

Concealment being bad is another myth from the forums posted by terrible players.

 

Concealment has some of the highest burst in the game.

[Trauglodyte]

It isn't that Conc damage is bad. It isn't. Its more that survivability is bad and you're forced to rely on stealth, which can be negated, to survive. Evasion doesn't do anything nor does it last long enough and Shield Probe doesn't absorb enough damage. And while our stealth is equivalent to that of a Deception Assassin, Assassins (as a whole) have better mobility in stealth than a Conc Op and aren't reliant upon stealth for that initial burst.

 

To put it in terms from that other game, we're the Assassination Rogue and Assassins are the Combat/Subtlety Rogues. We've got our strengths but they can be taken away where as having them removed is inconsequential to the Assassin.

[Khoraji]

There you have it.

 

Any healer whos DEAD MORE OFTEN is underpowered in PvP. No matter how much healing he can put out.

 

You see PvP is based on focus zerging and quick switches. Most of the time (not always but 90% of the time) one team try to assist train the opposite healer because the healer is the guy who counters the focus zerg (and PvP is based on focus zerg).

 

So if healer A dies faster than healers B and C, healer A is underpowered in PvP because he will be easier to zerg and after hes dead his team will fall soon after.

 

PvP isnt about healing numbers, PvP is about staying alive.

 

Dead people dont defend nodes.

 

Dead people dont cap.

 

Dead people dont call inc.

 

Dead people dont carry balls.

 

Saying "sages r fine bcz they put high numbar but die hehe" actually pinpoints our underpowered status IN PvP.

 

 

So your suggesting making Sorc healers just as tanky as mercs AND able to provide better heals?

 

Sounds like you just want your class to be OP again...

 

I said they are the squishiest out of the 3, I didn't say they die when the wind blows. They are still able to survive most of the time. Its the difference between 5 deaths and 7 deaths.

[Gidoru]

It isn't that Conc damage is bad. It isn't. Its more that survivability is bad and you're forced to rely on stealth, which can be negated, to survive. Evasion doesn't do anything nor does it last long enough and Shield Probe doesn't absorb enough damage. And while our stealth is equivalent to that of a Deception Assassin, Assassins (as a whole) have better mobility in stealth than a Conc Op and aren't reliant upon stealth for that initial burst.

 

To put it in terms from that other game, we're the Assassination Rogue and Assassins are the Combat/Subtlety Rogues. We've got our strengths but they can be taken away where as having them removed is inconsequential to the Assassin.

 

Umm Play a DPS Assassin. Your survivability isnt any better. Against some targets Ops have superior survivability to Deception Assassins.

 

The fact that stealth is tied to your burst damage is an advantage, not a liability.

 

A concealment OP can basically stunlock someone to 50% HP.

A Deception Assassin's damage requires set up and so stunlocking really isnt viable particularly since Spike does basically no damage and doesnt give you enough time to use a damaging ability while maintaining a stun chain.

[Laforet]

So your suggesting making Sorc healers just as tanky as mercs AND able to provide better heals?

 

Sounds like you just want your class to be OP again...

 

I said they are the squishiest out of the 3, I didn't say they die when the wind blows. They are still able to survive most of the time. Its the difference between 5 deaths and 7 deaths.

 

No.

 

Im suggesting they give us survivability tools even at the cost of NERFING our healing numbers, ESPECIALLY AoE HEALS.

 

Im also suggesting they tone down our casted spells to make them FASTER and more usable.

 

=D

 

I would like if they trashed or AoE healing, make healing trance heals for LESS but recuperates force.

 

Faster toned down deliverance, make benevolence heal for MORE but with a higher force cost (around 70 force) so that its actually a counter burst tool that depletes our force if used unwisely.

 

Put bubble enchancement talents all over the healing tree, and buff rejuvenation HoT even at the cost of nerfing the frontload heal.

 

Nerfing AoE, deliverance and the frontload of rejuvenate would put our numbers in line, we wouldnt exploit the new improved benevolence without being out of force, bubble would be destoyed with one more than one hit and we could heal on the run with a decent HoT.

 

This plus a dmg reduction CD on 1-2 mins. I would never complain.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Laforet

[Khoraji]

No.

 

Im suggesting they give us survivability tools even at the cost of NERFING our healing numbers, ESPECIALLY AoE HEALS.

 

Im also suggesting they tone down our casted spells to make them FASTER and more usable.

 

=D

 

I would like if they trashed or AoE healing, make healing trance heals for LESS but recuperates force.

 

Faster toned down deliverance, make benevolence heal for MORE but with a higher force cost (around 70 force) so that its actually a counter burst tool that depletes our force if used unwisely.

 

Put bubble enchancement talents all over the healing tree, and buff rejuvenation HoT even at the cost of nerfing the frontload heal.

 

Nerfing AoE, deliverance and the frontload of rejuvenate would put our numbers in line, we wouldnt exploit the new improved benevolence without being out of force, bubble would be destoyed with one more than one hit and we could heal on the run with a decent HoT.

 

This plus a dmg reduction CD on 1-2 mins. I would never complain.

 

Fair enough.... PvE sorc healers would hate you tho lol.

[Laforet]

So your suggesting making Sorc healers just as tanky as mercs AND able to provide better heals?

 

Sounds like you just want your class to be OP again...

 

I said they are the squishiest out of the 3, I didn't say they die when the wind blows. They are still able to survive most of the time. Its the difference between 5 deaths and 7 deaths.

 

Also, no.

 

Sorry i cant let BS like that be passed over and over again.

 

SORCS WERE TERRIBLY OVERPOWERED PRE 1.2 AND NEEDED TO BE NERFED TO THE GROUND.

 

This is a widespread myth coined by people who did not know what was going on with the game.

 

Sorc heals were never overpowered pre 1.2 by class design. What makes them look stronger was the fact that expertise benefitted healing more AND sorcs were exploiting a bug that let them double dip on a buff they werent supossed to.

 

They fixed healing expertise to lower levels AND fixed the bug, that should be enough.

 

Pre 1.2 i played assault vanguard not sorc and i never had a problem killing sorcs, good marauders locked sorcs pre 1.2. Sorc healing was not OP pre 1.2, it was BUGGY, instead of correcting the bug they killed the class, now they corrected the bug and forgot to buff us.

[Tadus]

Concealment is in a good spot it just needs some energy management love.

 

Also lethality is good but they need to give us a reason to roll lethality on an operative rather than a sniper.

 

DoTs need to proc tac advantage or something. That or give us an offensive dispel or a real execute

 

I don't know. I feel that concealment needs a little bit more, or other DPS classes need to be checked a bit. The loss of relic/stims removed a crutch that i think favored operative bursts more than other classes. I never feel as PTs or Marauders are expending as much effort to kill me as I expend to survive and kill them

[Trauglodyte]

Umm Play a DPS Assassin. Your survivability isnt any better. Against some targets Ops have superior survivability to Deception Assassins.

 

The fact that stealth is tied to your burst damage is an advantage, not a liability.

 

A concealment OP can basically stunlock someone to 50% HP.

A Deception Assassin's damage requires set up and so stunlocking really isnt viable particularly since Spike does basically no damage and doesnt give you enough time to use a damaging ability while maintaining a stun chain.

 

I won't disagree with any of that. But you can't compare Spike to Hidden Strike because you're designed to operate harder and heavier in the execute phase. On top of that, you've got speed, a knock back, a bubble equal-ish to ours, and two stuns. Each spec has its strengths but you've got the better end of it, in a way, by not having to depend on stealth like we do.

[Macroecon]

Give it up. The solution to Merc and Ops dps woes is simple - REROLL.

 

Now from a philosophical perspective BW should offer people stuck in those subclasses, the same out that they offered to people stuck on underpopulated servers - a transfer. After all the people on underpopulated servers made a mistake through no fault of their own early in the game's history and they chose the wrong server. BW let them fix that problem via transfer so they could experience endgame PvP in particular. From a fairness perspective, BW should let Mercs switch to PT and Operatives switch to Sniper. After all, people who chose Merc or Operative made a mistake through no fault of their own early in the game's history and they chose the wrong AC. BW should let them fix that problem via class transfer so they can experience endgame PvP in particular.