Darth_Philar Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Different classes have a different skill curve required to play to their maximum capability. True. Are those players able to transcend class limitation within game mechanics? No. Class power is measured at class potential, not an arbitrary level on the skill curve attained by a random number of players possessing a random level of skill You have a problem with class skill curve. AKA class performance when handled by average players. And it is impossible to balance a game around that. "You" should start threads similar to "class x is to hard to play properly compared to class y" , and not threads regarding game balance. This is the same absurd argument that Blizzard made that kept the Hunter class at 1% Arena Representation for 3 years. They actually stated that fixing the bugs and balancing the class would make the few exceptional hunters unbeatable, and used that to justify leaving the class broken. Fact is, if the skill gap is such that only the exceptional players are able to compete and everyone below that skill level is unable to compete, then the class requires a complete mechanic overhaul to reduce the skill cap while still being balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eventidephoenix Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 heh I've quit PvP and now I'm a much happier Sage... wheee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rymah Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Sounds more like a "They killed me in PvP, so I am mad" article to be honest. On my DPS Merc, I am able to break out 250k+ each WZ, which is usually 100k more than anyone else in the match, unless it's another merc, in which its about 100k. Actually it sounds more like the OP is lamenting the lack of fotm's to carry him in WZ's to me, and he's venting frustration at the people who haven't rolled fotm yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smuglebunny Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I dunno man, Ive been seeing alot of mercs and sorcs on my pugs lately, and we have been losing alot lately. I am always in top 3 in damage AND objectives during these WZ's...as a rage jugg. And I dont consider myself good. I click, I keyboard turn...etc. This is my first mmo. I have a merc at lvl 50 and I cant kill the avatar of sel-makor on voss. All signs point to mercs being underpowered. Sorcs...I have no direct experience to talk on them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) This is the same absurd argument that Blizzard made that kept the Hunter class at 1% Arena Representation for 3 years. They actually stated that fixing the bugs and balancing the class would make the few exceptional hunters unbeatable, and used that to justify leaving the class broken. Fact is, if the skill gap is such that only the exceptional players are able to compete and everyone below that skill level is unable to compete, then the class requires a complete mechanic overhaul to reduce the skill cap while still being balanced. This is the situation with Merc Pyros right now. Almost no one plays them. The only ones left are those that are very highly skilled and fanatical to their subclass. As a result the meta averages for Merc Pyros are skewed to over-represent the top 10 or 20 Merc Pyros in the entire game. Their performance will continue to be nerfed down until it matches the performance of the average PT Pyro in the game. BW will not fix this because they don't understand the concept to balancing classes to best practices, they only balance to meta averages. Bottom line: yes, I can score 750k in a match on my Merc Pyro - but that is about 15% less than on a real dps subclass. So if you have one Merc Pyro on your team, it's one too many. Sorc dps is a bit different. Sorc dps can outpower EVERY other subclass in the game if played correctly. Top sorcs regularly post 1 million damage in static Voidstar matches. BUT they need the right team composition in order to shine. They need healers and a tank that can switch to their defense when needed. Sorcs dps are the ultimate glass cannon in the game. If you have two of them on your squad, that's too many. Edited July 11, 2012 by Macroecon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterone Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Seriously, when I have too many mercs and sorcs dps on my team its almost an instant loss. If you play these classes do your teamates a favor and switch to heals or reroll if you want to pvp. I cannot keep a merc alive long enough to make any difference. Now if you are the 1/100 who can outperform the real pvp classes then fine, but to the majority of you, your gimped toon is costing your team. Noone wants you in ranked and noone wants you in unranked either. Sad but true. Give us a break, we're trying to get some love from BW. But as is probably the case, their awesome metrics are showing we're probably the best out of everyone! I only wish metrics had something to do with reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Give us a break, we're trying to get some love from BW. But as is probably the case, their awesome metrics are showing we're probably the best out of everyone! I only wish metrics had something to do with reality. Metrics always suffer from the same problem, they can only be taken in a vacuum. As soon as you stop recording what amounts to training dummy numbers and look at actual in game results you will quickly see the differences between potential and reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ntranced Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I dunno man, Ive been seeing alot of mercs and sorcs on my pugs lately, and we have been losing alot lately.. Yes indeed, because as the OP pointed out Sorc/Merc really aren't wanted in ranked AT ALL. Non ranked pugs on the other hand are full of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunafox Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 What a nasty thing to post. There are alot of people out there who would be willing to give pvp a go, if it weren't for the unwelcome attitudes of some so called uber players. Yes, some people will have crap gear to start out with, and have a hard time getting a thicker skin in order to advance (constant humiliation sucks, lol) without someone coming on here and announcing what classes you should or shouldn't play. I have this to say to the OP, suck it up. People will play what they want to play, and they pay for that priviledge to do what makes them happy here, so, if that ruins your pvp experience, oh freaking well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgen-Ferik Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I would beat you down any day with my Merc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Also, have fun playing operative healer, spamming your heal over time and surgical probe; how boring! That and just running for your life the entire time. Have a chocolate shake setup on the side that you can sip on while being grey-barred for a quarter of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Thing is, RWZ are not taking DPS mercs or sorcs- they're taking mara and PT for damage. Now this means one of two things. It first off doesn't mean people don't play the class- that's a lie, both are quite popular just not in pvp anymore despite being extremely so early game. What it does mean is either- the class is extremely gimped as people have been saying, as all the stats support, as the death counts, solo kills, and population in RWZ support and as the side by side ability comparisons support. Or, the class simply has a very high skill cap. However- RWZ are the competitive pvp- it's filled with the best pvpers, yet those pvpers aren't taking sorcs and mercs as DPS. Meaning- the skill cap for these two classes to be competitive against PT and marauders is so high, even the best players find them too hard to play well enough to be viable in RWZ. So, either- they're gimp, or the skill cap is beyond over 99% of the playerbase's ability to play usefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germil Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 For Merc at least, the skill cap is not that high. We just don't have the tools to be efficient enough and DPS when under pressure for more than few seconds, and we don't bring that much in terms of CC or interrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVoidStalker Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 It doesn't really matter where a Sorcerer's talents are except that they are in the pvp-Sorcerer talents. Sorcerers are bad at both damage and healing in pvp. They are good at Sorcerer things (mostly CC). Being specced more into healing or damage isn't going to make them do those things better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssfbistimg Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) Seriously, when I have too many mercs and sorcs dps on my team its almost an instant loss. If you play these classes do your teamates a favor and switch to heals or reroll if you want to pvp. I cannot keep a merc alive long enough to make any difference. Now if you are the 1/100 who can outperform the real pvp classes then fine, but to the majority of you, your gimped toon is costing your team. Noone wants you in ranked and noone wants you in unranked either. Sad but true. As a dps Sage I out perform 85% of all dps I'm in a warzones with. But even more importantly I play the objectives. I'm not one of the thousands of bad Marauders & Powertechs off 1 vs 1 no where near the objective point. Cause I'm so uber good I can kill you... wait what how did they just cap. Must be the Sorcerers fault cause hes squishy. Not my fault cause im fighting 45 meters away from actual node chasing a Sage around. So no I wont respec or change classes. Thank You Please Drive Thru Edited July 11, 2012 by Ssfbistimg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeVans_ Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I have a degree in psychology and human behavior. So ty for the advice, but i don't need it. I'm just not looking to make friends on the internet. lol 'degree' in psychology. ***** please. Psychology isn't a degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue_talon Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Thing is, RWZ are not taking DPS mercs or sorcs- they're taking mara and PT for damage. Now this means one of two things. It first off doesn't mean people don't play the class- that's a lie, both are quite popular just not in pvp anymore despite being extremely so early game. What it does mean is either- the class is extremely gimped as people have been saying, as all the stats support, as the death counts, solo kills, and population in RWZ support and as the side by side ability comparisons support. Or, the class simply has a very high skill cap. However- RWZ are the competitive pvp- it's filled with the best pvpers, yet those pvpers aren't taking sorcs and mercs as DPS. Meaning- the skill cap for these two classes to be competitive against PT and marauders is so high, even the best players find them too hard to play well enough to be viable in RWZ. So, either- they're gimp, or the skill cap is beyond over 99% of the playerbase's ability to play usefully. We take a dps sorc, a hybrid dps/heals sorc, merc dps and jugg dps..... your assumptions is based on the class. The 'best pvpers' you are talking about take the best players not the best class...... just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBloodloss Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 any remotely skilled pyro/van or mara can kill you in 3 GCDs Spammable 6.5k attack? Imagine if you get a couple crits! According to your math, thats like 40k damage in about 10 seconds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) For Merc at least, the skill cap is not that high. We just don't have the tools to be efficient enough and DPS when under pressure for more than few seconds, and we don't bring that much in terms of CC or interrupt. This is the issue with Merc in a nutshell. Arsenal is just such a non-starter it's ridiculous. Crap for mobility, limited CC, very vulnerable to pressure and lockdown. I can't imagine why anyone plays the spec in PVP since it's only ever effective against mouth-breathers who are stupid enough to let you stay in an advantageous position and blast away unharried. Pyro probably has the best burst and mobility of any "pure" ranged class, so a little glassiness is an acceptable tradeoff there. Still susceptible to pressure, but the snare on CGS procs makes a big difference. It's definitely the healthiest PVP spec for the class, but the ability to sustain max damage at 30m does not offset its deficiency in damage and utility compared to PT Pyro. Bodyguard has its advantages, but it's too susceptible to pressure given its relative immobility, and as always the poor AoE healing is, well, poor. Simple fact is there's nothing it brings to the table to justify bumping a Sorc or Op healer on a rated team. Edit: Yes, I know I'm not 50 yet, but I've been almost exclusively PVPing since the late 30s and there aren't any drastic changes to how the class is played between 40 and 50+. I've also slaughtered enough Mercs (of all stripes) on my Marauder to appreciate how poor they are at stopping me. Edited July 12, 2012 by Parali "retard" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denki_ Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Seeing posts like this makes my imagination tingle and try to picture people's amazement when I kite Sents/Maras and Vang/Ptechs to death in PVP. I understand this post is tongue-in-cheek, but overgeneralization is your post's biggest flaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaLeX Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 """""Also, i am sorry but are you new to the forums? every time someone does that, explains and proves... etc. Basically it doesn't go the whiner op's way, they abandon the thread and start a new one.""""" Oh no, I guess you are wrong on this. I have read every post and I have not started another one since. You brag about how great you are because your team wins=, how do we know its not your team carrying your weak op dps. We have an all PT Pyro team on my server that is unbeaten, how do you explain that? And how is your team any better than theirs? All I know is what I see as a healer, it is near impossible to keep a merc alive for more than a few seconds because they die so fast. With maurader I can sit there and heal for a minute straight and hes still not dead. Other players staying alive means more healing for me and more wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaLeX Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 I will say that a good sage or sorc can cause me alot of problems healing, but the worst offender is PT with those nasty 1 sec interupts. I have no choice but to stop healing and get rid of him. Mercs never ever give me any problems, they are easily dispatched. I'm sure there have been one or two that have killed me but i can't specifically remember the last time it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBSIP Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 """""Also, i am sorry but are you new to the forums? every time someone does that, explains and proves... etc. Basically it doesn't go the whiner op's way, they abandon the thread and start a new one.""""" Oh no, I guess you are wrong on this. I have read every post and I have not started another one since. You brag about how great you are because your team wins=, how do we know its not your team carrying your weak op dps. We have an all PT Pyro team on my server that is unbeaten, how do you explain that? And how is your team any better than theirs? All I know is what I see as a healer, it is near impossible to keep a merc alive for more than a few seconds because they die so fast. With maurader I can sit there and heal for a minute straight and hes still not dead. Other players staying alive means more healing for me and more wins. 8 PT pyros unbeaten? your server is trash. that's all I've got for you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaLeX Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 This is what I have heard, is it plausible to run 8 PT Pyro or is it not? Really, I don't see how 6 PT mara and 2 ops healers can lose if the teams are of equal skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never_Hesitate Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I will say that a good sage or sorc can cause me alot of problems healing, but the worst offender is PT with those nasty 1 sec interupts. I have no choice but to stop healing and get rid of him. Mercs never ever give me any problems, they are easily dispatched. I'm sure there have been one or two that have killed me but i can't specifically remember the last time it happened. What 1s interrupts? I don't there isn't one but how do I get this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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