kitsinni Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 You see a lot of people say X damage is worth more that X% crit, is there some type of simulation software that runs through thousands of sumulations you are running this through that shows that it ends up that way or is everyone guessing? Every time you don't crit 100% of your crit rating and surge are wasted, but your power is never wasted on an attack that you do crit. If that 1% more crit chance is the difference between critting or not it could be huge. So I guess what I am trying to figure out is how you are determining what amount of bonus damage is worth a certain percentage of crit chance? What would be the ratio and what are you using to determine this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dardack Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 You see a lot of people say X damage is worth more that X% crit, is there some type of simulation software that runs through thousands of sumulations you are running this through that shows that it ends up that way or is everyone guessing? Every time you don't crit 100% of your crit rating and surge are wasted, but your power is never wasted on an attack that you do crit. If that 1% more crit chance is the difference between critting or not it could be huge. So I guess what I am trying to figure out is how you are determining what amount of bonus damage is worth a certain percentage of crit chance? What would be the ratio and what are you using to determine this? How about math proving it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlvgV8Tn0LSHdEg4M3NZazFDdlV3MHJoV3IyN09LbEE Law of averages says that in 1000 attacks if 30% crit, 300 attacks should crit. Now some simulations will show more and some less. Do 10000 and 3000 will crit and because of that large number it will be around that. So this is simple math. You can look at the formula. This is without the 9% steely, and not taking into account the 5% to bonus damage from warrior buff. However, if you take the 5% to bonus power to both aim and power, power scales even more since .23 > .2. I then did 9% steely, and that's in the below part of spreadsheet. So as you can see 9% aim buff with 5% (without taking into account warrior buff) aim > power at low crit and at 30% and up become about equal. If I was at 2k aim with 30% crit, power would > aim even at 9%. However at 6% or less in steely power > aim. As I ahve always stated. 9% brings them very close to each other. But if you run the normal Pyro 6% or AP or some hybrid without 9% steely, power>aim always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitsinni Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Well Crit Chance and Crit Rating are different. Here is one thing I have heard conflicting reports on, how crit chance works. I was told by some people that your crit chance you get from aim is on its own diminishing return, secondary stat on its own DR and the crit you get from crit rating is on its own diminishing return which all lead to crit chance, is that true or does crit chance diminish as a whole as I have been told by other people? All of the graphs I have seen show DR for crit rating, as a stat but not crit chance as a whole. It seems like your spreadsheet makes it seem like the crit chance you get from Aim is gonig to be diminshed by your existing crit chance from other stats. So the question becomes is the amount of crit chance you get from main stat affected by crit raiting or secondary stat that leads to crit? Edited July 16, 2012 by kitsinni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Yes, because a Marauder has the same stat priorities as a Powertech, and because the 4 piece set bonus for Powertechs is completely useless. Therefore, I am going to keep stacking crit because 15% bonus crit isn't enough. http://www.twitch.tv/evolutionarygg/b/324962602 Skip to 31:13 and watch until 31:36 Is it just me or is Rail Shot (number 4 keybind) off cooldown for that entire duration, and 1-2 Prototype Particle Accelerator procs are wasted, and Flame Burst is spammed (more than it should be). I might be blind, that's why I need some verification. Lol. I didn't know it was possible to mess up a 4 button rotation, but apparently it is. (Probably more fails like that in the rest / previous of that video, but I just happened to skip to that part and stopped watching right after. (Lol.)) How long did you sift through my videos to find a mistake so you could come on the forums and be my biggest fanboy? I'm flattered, really. Anyways, it's real easy toi sit back and critique someone's gameplay without posting videos of your own for fanboys to dissect. Go ahead, post a 4+ hour video and watch me rip you a new one. <3 Until then, much love. Edited July 16, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 Anyways, so I swapped some augments out today, 18 Aim for 18 Power, and my bonus damage actually dropped, by about 40. I'm starting to believe that nobody knows *** they're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dardack Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Anyways, so I swapped some augments out today, 18 Aim for 18 Power, and my bonus damage actually dropped, by about 40. I'm starting to believe that nobody knows *** they're talking about. Then you are the only person that happens to. And there is no way replacing 1 for 1 aim to power that you loose bonus damage. No possible way. I don't think you know what you talking about. The math proves that power>aim even with 9% when you are over 2k aim and like over 32% crit (or around there, harder to prove without the EXACT DR Crit formula), however math proves Power>aim always when you DON'T have full steely 9% (6% and below). Did you not look at spread sheet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailwen Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You forgot the 5% for bonus damage. Since power effects this, you have to take into account 5% for this. So it's like 7-8 more bonus damage. I'll give up the crit personally. To each their own. Are you are referring to the Warrior "Unnatural Might" buff for 5% increase to bonus damage? If so, then this acts directly against bonus damage and does not benefit Power over Aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailwen Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Then you are the only person that happens to. And there is no way replacing 1 for 1 aim to power that you loose bonus damage. No possible way. I don't think you know what you talking about. The math proves that power>aim even with 9% when you are over 2k aim and like over 32% crit (or around there, harder to prove without the EXACT DR Crit formula), however math proves Power>aim always when you DON'T have full steely 9% (6% and below). Did you not look at spread sheet? Your spreadsheet has an error. You are only calculating the damage based on the incremental bonus damage provided by the augments, which is why your results only show 65 damage per attack. You have to calculate the total damage based on the full bonus damage as the additional crit applies a benefit to the total damage. That is, for the extra 1.5% crits that you gain with the Aim augments, you will gain a benefit of 0.75 (crit mulitplier) x the fulll non-crit damage of that skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailwen Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Anyways, so I swapped some augments out today, 18 Aim for 18 Power, and my bonus damage actually dropped, by about 40. I'm starting to believe that nobody knows *** they're talking about. Something is wrong in that case as power will always give slightly more bonus damage than aim. What was your aim and power and bonus damage before and after the swap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailwen Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You see a lot of people say X damage is worth more that X% crit, is there some type of simulation software that runs through thousands of sumulations you are running this through that shows that it ends up that way or is everyone guessing? Every time you don't crit 100% of your crit rating and surge are wasted, but your power is never wasted on an attack that you do crit. If that 1% more crit chance is the difference between critting or not it could be huge. So I guess what I am trying to figure out is how you are determining what amount of bonus damage is worth a certain percentage of crit chance? What would be the ratio and what are you using to determine this? I believe that this formula will give you the additional bonus damage that you will get as you increment critical chance. Additional Bonus Damage% = (((BC + IC) * (1 + CM) + (1 - (BC + IC))) / (BC * (1 + CM) + (1 - BC)) - 1) * 100 variables are: BC = Base Critical Chance, e.g. 0.3 for 30% IC = Incremental Critical Chance to test, e.g. 0.01 for 1% CM = Critical Multiplier, e.g. 0.75 for 75% Here is a link that contains this formula with the variables that you can change to match your specific values. In the example values that I provided above, 30% critical chance and 75% critical multipler, you gain 0.61% percent bonus damage for each additional 1% critical chance that you add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dardack Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Your spreadsheet has an error. You are only calculating the damage based on the incremental bonus damage provided by the augments, which is why your results only show 65 damage per attack. You have to calculate the total damage based on the full bonus damage as the additional crit applies a benefit to the total damage. That is, for the extra 1.5% crits that you gain with the Aim augments, you will gain a benefit of 0.75 (crit mulitplier) x the fulll non-crit damage of that skill. I do take that into account. Look at aim and power, aim has more crit. The formula I use is: ((# attacks-(# attacks*Crit))*Bonus Dam)+((#Attacks*Crit)*(Bonus Dam*(1+Surge))) How is that not taking into account the crit multiplier/Crit chance? In non formula, the number of attacks that don't crit * dam + the numbers of attacks that do crit * (dam*1.75) Please point out where I'm not taking into account the benefit of extra crit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitsinni Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I do take that into account. Look at aim and power, aim has more crit. The formula I use is: ((# attacks-(# attacks*Crit))*Bonus Dam)+((#Attacks*Crit)*(Bonus Dam*(1+Surge))) How is that not taking into account the crit multiplier/Crit chance? In non formula, the number of attacks that don't crit * dam + the numbers of attacks that do crit * (dam*1.75) Please point out where I'm not taking into account the benefit of extra crit? In your spreadsheet a couple places you say that the amount of crit you are going to get from main stat changes with the amount of crit chance you have, am I reading that correctly? The link about how stats work says that is not the case and your crit chance from Aim is completely seperate from your crit chance from crit rating. If that is not the case where is the 30% ideal from cirt coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dardack Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 In your spreadsheet a couple places you say that the amount of crit you are going to get from main stat changes with the amount of crit chance you have, am I reading that correctly? The link about how stats work says that is not the case and your crit chance from Aim is completely seperate from your crit chance from crit rating. If that is not the case where is the 30% ideal from cirt coming from? What link about how stats work? Crit has a DR whether it comes from Aim or Crit rating. So yes the crit from PER POINT of Aim has DR on it and will diminish as you put more Aim on. The only crit% that isn't affected by DR is the 5% from the buff, which is applied AFTER all your crit ratings/main stat. This is easy to prove. In all your gear mouse over crit %. Look at Aim, it will same something like Aim (amount of aim): +some % of crit. Take this % and divide by amount of aim (ie if Aim is 1474 and crit from aim is 9.89%, .0989/1474 = ~.0067096) Now remove 2 Armorings (i say armorings cause they only have Aim/Endurance no crit or other stats). Ie 2 36 aim armorings so Aim is now 1402: 9.49%, .0949/1402 = ~.0067689. If there was no DR from aim, those 2 numbers would be the same. So right there the Math Proves that the Crit component of Aim has DR (and this is just from mousing over your Character sheet, not some fancy math proven through sims or anything, black and white). And it's not linear DR From what I understand, the higher aim/Crit you get the more DR you incure. The 30% is before the 5% buff and comes from the DR from aim/crit rating is so Hard at 30% that it's not worth stacking more crit beyond 30%. TBH I don't stack crit beyond 30% with the 5% buff. I feel stats are better put into power. As you can see from my spreadsheet, I don't run with 9% steely (as I don't know any Pyro or AP that does, Pyro runs with 6%, alot of AP with 0%), more bonus power > crit when you don't have the 9% steely. With 9% steely when you hit AROUND 2k Aim and 30% crit, power>aim because of the DR to the crit chance of AIm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitsinni Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=157437 It was in this thread called Stats and How they Work. These are the guys from MMO-Mechanics I believe the ones that put out all the graphs on DR. At least there the guys say that the crit chance you get from Aim is completely seperate from crit rating and secondary stats and they all have independed DR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitsinni Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Here is a quote from that thread speaking directly to this question. Looks like Alkerris mostly covered it for me. The benefit to a value is only capped from that rating. IE. the benefit from crit rating limits to 30%, but Willpower is on a separate pool for DR. So if you had infinite willpower and crit, you could have 30% crit from both, for 60% total. There is no cap on the benefit from raw percentages (with the obvious exception that you can't have higher than 100% chance in a number of stats, like Crit, Alacrity, and Defense). Surge just has a base of 0.5 instead of 0. So if you have says 32% crit multiplier from Surge rating, your character sheet would display 0.5 + 0.32 = 82% crit multiplier. I'll see if I can clarify the OP to include that information. I'll also note defensive stat benefits to companions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailwen Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I do take that into account. Look at aim and power, aim has more crit. The formula I use is: ((# attacks-(# attacks*Crit))*Bonus Dam)+((#Attacks*Crit)*(Bonus Dam*(1+Surge))) How is that not taking into account the crit multiplier/Crit chance? In non formula, the number of attacks that don't crit * dam + the numbers of attacks that do crit * (dam*1.75) Please point out where I'm not taking into account the benefit of extra crit? The issue is, as best I can tell from your spreadsheet, is that the "Bonus Damage" in your formula is the incremental bonus damage from the augments, 52 and 57 for aim and power respectively. You need to use the full bonus damage and not just the incremental bonus damage to properly reflect the benefit of additional critical chance. The bonus damage for a full WH pyro build should be in the order of 850-1000, depending on the specific build, not the 52-57 value that you are using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dardack Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=157437 It was in this thread called Stats and How they Work. These are the guys from MMO-Mechanics I believe the ones that put out all the graphs on DR. At least there the guys say that the crit chance you get from Aim is completely seperate from crit rating and secondary stats and they all have independed DR. From your link: Critical effect chance benefit scales slowly and limits to 30%. (for both stats and crit rating, which seems to indicate total crit %) But even if independent, so you can ignore crit% total and just look at total aim. When aim reaches over (around) 2k, then the DR on crit from Aim makes power>aim with 9% steely, and power>aim always without 9% steely. In no current gear will you be able to get 30% crit from Aim and according to them you can't get 30% from crit rating. And with no DR on power, power becomes better then Aim with 9% steel at a certain point. I'm assuming it's somewhere near 2k from the math from my spreadsheet. At 1861 the differnce between aim/power from the augments is 0.14%, so as Aim approaches 2k, that should approach 0, and over 2k power will start to over take aim. Remember that's with 9% steely, without 9% steely, power is ALWAYS>aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dardack Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) The issue is, as best I can tell from your spreadsheet, is that the "Bonus Damage" in your formula is the incremental bonus damage from the augments, 52 and 57 for aim and power respectively. You need to use the full bonus damage and not just the incremental bonus damage to properly reflect the benefit of additional critical chance. The bonus damage for a full WH pyro build should be in the order of 850-1000, depending on the specific build, not the 52-57 value that you are using. I see what your saying. Um i'm in full WH and have 600 bonus Dam. Not sure where you're getting 850-1000. That's with like 1900 aim and 700 power. Unless you mean straight up damage then yeah 850-1000. Taking that into account, aim>power in a 1:1 even without 9% but within about 0.5% i guess. So I take back everything I've said. TY for pointing this out. But still the mods with 48 aim 37 power>64 aim 12 power, and WH boundless > matrix cube. Beyond that, guess I'll be swapping augments today. Edited July 17, 2012 by dardack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aharx Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Lot's of good information in this thread. I have just got my Powertech Pyro. to level 50. I have maybe 20 minutes of level 50 play time under his belt now. I plan on starting to gear him out this coming weekend and with all of the tips here it should help a great deal. Off the bat I think my Pyro. has about 1250 Aim. Not sure how much Power, I cannot remember. I'll definately look to keep increasing my Aim to start though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 So I was right >.> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siphorus Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I believe this is the BiS build for BH, feel free to discuss http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/118576f8-f820-4baf-b160-05a26b62ef79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dardack Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) So I was right >.> Actually your original argument is wrong, matrix cube is not > WH relic. And you didn't provide any proof besides anectodal. Just because you're right by accident means nothing. Also this is only for Aim < 2k. I'm assuming from the projection that when Aim > 2k or you gain 30% crit (unbuffed) power> aim. So you were accidentally right to a point. They are very close to each other within a 1% or less (<2k aim for this discussion). So if you can trade either 1 aim for 1.1+ power or 1 power for 1.1+ aim you do that, otherwise aim for augments. It's really the only choice, the best mods (if you dont' care about endurance) is the 51 aim 39 power vs the 64 aim 12 power, give up 13 aim for 27 power, no brainer. All armorings are the same. And enhancements don't have aim. So put aim in augments but you're not totally gimping yourself putting power in as they are very close to each other. Edited July 17, 2012 by dardack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mediia Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) How long did you sift through my videos to find a mistake so you could come on the forums and be my biggest fanboy? I'm flattered, really. Anyways, it's real easy toi sit back and critique someone's gameplay without posting videos of your own for fanboys to dissect. Go ahead, post a 4+ hour video and watch me rip you a new one. <3 Until then, much love. Actually when I first started your stream you were sitting on Fleet so i decided to fast forward, and happened to see that. Anyways, here's my stream twitch.tv/mediaswtor You can go through my videos if you want. I have 30+ hours of videos I think? I used to stream a lot but stopped for some reason. But yea, you can go 'dissect' my videos if you want. Edited July 18, 2012 by Mediia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 I already see a huge mistake upon loading into your page. Where it says 'Featuring the best Operative Healer on "The Bastion"' Well, this isn't Scold, nor Wurdlol's stream; far from the best breh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mediia Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) I already see a huge mistake upon loading into your page. Where it says 'Featuring the best Operative Healer on "The Bastion"' Well, this isn't Scold, nor Wurdlol's stream; far from the best breh. You think that Powertech has too many keybinds to bind "pass the Huttball". And you spam Flameburst when Railshot is off cooldown. So I think your opinion is invalid. If anybody else has any comments I'd welcome them (assuming they aren't bad). (Also, the fact that I know your class better than you also adds to my statement above.) Edited July 19, 2012 by Mediia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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