Too much mitigation

[grallmate]

Hey Guys,

 

So I've been having an interesting experience tanking for my guild lately. We aren't deep into the end game stuff, only cleared HM EV/KP and working on gearing everyone up. I'm about 4 pieces Rakata and the rest Columi as a Guardian tank. I've been running with an excellent healer since about lvl 40 who has never had issues keeping us alive. Pretty much every wipe we've ever had was a mechanics stuff up by DPS or an enrage so we work together pretty well (once I ran off the platform on Sav-Rak by accident though).

 

Anyway, point is: 'ately I've noticed my HP dropping a lot faster/lower than usual though. Even on bosses I never used to have issues with. I assumed it was with my spec so I tweaked it around a bit, optimized my gear some more and it got worse... So I asked my healer if she had noticed it and she said "Oh you don't seem to take much healing at all anymore, I spend half my time DPSing now." I was shocked but it explained a lot. I mean we don't have issues surviving my health just seems to yoyo between 100% and 40% a lot more.

 

Now I assume this will be less of an issue once we reach EC and NMMs since I will be sucking up that healing like a sponge again. But I was wondering: has anyone else experienced this?

[Kiisu]

Hey Guys,

 

So I've been having an interesting experience tanking for my guild lately. We aren't deep into the end game stuff, only cleared HM EV/KP and working on gearing everyone up. I'm about 4 pieces Rakata and the rest Columi as a Guardian tank. I've been running with an excellent healer since about lvl 40 who has never had issues keeping us alive. Pretty much every wipe we've ever had was a mechanics stuff up by DPS or an enrage so we work together pretty well (once I ran off the platform on Sav-Rak by accident though).

 

Anyway, point is: 'ately I've noticed my HP dropping a lot faster/lower than usual though. Even on bosses I never used to have issues with. I assumed it was with my spec so I tweaked it around a bit, optimized my gear some more and it got worse... So I asked my healer if she had noticed it and she said "Oh you don't seem to take much healing at all anymore, I spend half my time DPSing now." I was shocked but it explained a lot. I mean we don't have issues surviving my health just seems to yoyo between 100% and 40% a lot more.

 

Now I assume this will be less of an issue once we reach EC and NMMs since I will be sucking up that healing like a sponge again. But I was wondering: has anyone else experienced this?

 

SM/HM EV and KP are easy. Even NMM's of those are quite easy tbh. You should probably start doing sm ec and old nmm's if you find sm/hm too easy.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Kiisu

[BlastingGravy]

So you are surprised that better tank gear makes you take less damage? I have no idea what you are even trying to say.

[DiLune]

So you are surprised that better tank gear makes you take less damage? I have no idea what you are even trying to say.

 

And the problem that is being solved is the Healer having time to spend energy/etc on DPSing. I really don't see the problem.

[grallmate]

That while I am taking less damage overall, it feels like I am taking more because I'm not being constantly healed and my HP drops (and can afford to drop) a lot lower than it used to.

[BlastingGravy]

That while I am taking less damage overall, it feels like I am taking more because I'm not being constantly healed and my HP drops (and can afford to drop) a lot lower than it used to.

 

But you already said that it was your healer who was responsible for that. So since you already know why it was happening, what exactly are you asking?

[jedimessiah]

But you already said that it was your healer who was responsible for that. So since you already know why it was happening, what exactly are you asking?

 

Hey Guys,

But I was wondering: has anyone else experienced this?

 

Yes!! It's awesome when you're geared/skilled enough for your healer to DPS.

[Cheeseblaster]

Hey Guys,

Anyway, point is: 'ately I've noticed my HP dropping a lot faster/lower than usual though. Even on bosses I never used to have issues with. I assumed it was with my spec so I tweaked it around a bit, optimized my gear some more and it got worse... So I asked my healer if she had noticed it and she said "Oh you don't seem to take much healing at all anymore, I spend half my time DPSing now." I was shocked but it explained a lot. I mean we don't have issues surviving my health just seems to yoyo between 100% and 40% a lot more.

 

OK, i know this is an older thread, but i'm gonna throw something out there. Not knowing exactly your spec and what set of gear you are using it's just a guess though.

 

What you need to look at is your Defense vs Shield/Absorb ratings. If you have a high defense rating and lower shield/absorb you will defend a lot more damage but the damage that gets through will do a lot of damage, hence the yo-yo effect you are seeing.

 

If you have higher shield/absorb the damage you take will not be as spiky. I believe the first roll is defense and the second is shield/absorb.

 

Take a look at your gear, as i've noticed some sets change which of those stats they concentrate on.

 

In my case, and i know it's not a direct comparison as i'm a Vangaurd, my defense chance is only like 12% but my shield chance is 50% and my absorb is 57%. So technically more damage gets through to me, but a lot of it gets shielded/absorbed, so it's smoother.

 

Though as people said you seem to be fine, just sounds like you'd prefer not to worry about the yo-yo you see..

[grallmate]

OK, i know this is an older thread, but i'm gonna throw something out there. Not knowing exactly your spec and what set of gear you are using it's just a guess though.

 

What you need to look at is your Defense vs Shield/Absorb ratings. If you have a high defense rating and lower shield/absorb you will defend a lot more damage but the damage that gets through will do a lot of damage, hence the yo-yo effect you are seeing.

 

If you have higher shield/absorb the damage you take will not be as spiky. I believe the first roll is defense and the second is shield/absorb.

 

Take a look at your gear, as i've noticed some sets change which of those stats they concentrate on.

 

In my case, and i know it's not a direct comparison as i'm a Vangaurd, my defense chance is only like 12% but my shield chance is 50% and my absorb is 57%. So technically more damage gets through to me, but a lot of it gets shielded/absorbed, so it's smoother.

 

Though as people said you seem to be fine, just sounds like you'd prefer not to worry about the yo-yo you see..

 

The thread wasn't about being spiky (which I'm not). It was more a case of my healer ignoring my HP until it hit <40% because I don't take much damage anymore. My healer was DPSing until I hit about 40% and then healing me to full and going back to DPS.

 

Just to clarify what makes a Vanguard tank 'smoother' is the higher base mitigation from armor and high shield chance shielding a lot of hits. However against a series of crits your HP will spike very similarly to a Shadow or Guardian as reduction from armor is all that applies. Remember that you can never shield a crit but you can defend against an attack that would have critted.

 

Similarly, against ele/internal damage you are going to take huge damage. Some of it (very little really) can be defended but none can be shielded. Tank NiM Jarg and you'll see what HP spikes are really like

 

Got slightly distracted there, this thread wasn't about spikiness. More about if too much mitigation can cause your healer to ignore your HP and then you die as a result.

[Cleet_Xia]

Got slightly distracted there, this thread wasn't about spikiness. More about if too much mitigation can cause your healer to ignore your HP and then you die as a result.

 

My main is a 31/10/0 sage healer in 50/50 Black hole/Columi, and I've got a Guardian tank about to start Hard Modes.

 

As a Healer doing HM I dps at some point on almost every fight.

 

Your healer ignoring your bar until you fall in to <40% territory has nothing to do with how much mitigation you have. And dropping mitigation won't do anything to help the group clear bosses, it will simply put your healer in walking med medpack mode. This won't help you at all. Your healer will still probably let you fall to 40% before healing you. What is causing this is that your healer is experimenting with their dps options, and it's messed up their timings. The problem will correct itself as your healer improves.

 

What's causing the problem atm is your healer casting TK Throw. This is the cheapest and largest dps for your healer to use, but it ties them up for almost 3 seconds with a channeled cast. In that time your health will fall from 60% to below 40%. Your healer just needs to learn how to keep you a little closer to the top, without overheal. Overhealing is what destroys a healer's resources for dpsing. If your healer is specced for Concentration, they're also casting a Disturbance before the Tk Throw. This is going to let your health fluctuate by something like 35% depending on your gear.

 

You want your healer to learn how to dps while they heal, here's why...

 

1) If the tank's gear will allow the healer to dps - healer dps is significantly higher than tank dps ~ this is how they are balanced for 1v1 PvP. The tank mitigation basically erases the healer's higher dps. Try dueling your healer, without companions. You'll probably beat the healer every time, but only because your End stack is larger, and most healers don't kite very well. Forcing your healer to not dps by buffing your own dps with non mitigation stats will actually nerf your group's overall dps. Critting on your basic saber attack will not create significant amounts of damage, or help you hold aggro while everything else is on CD.

 

2) Healers don't like healing hybrid specced/geared tanks - because throwing down the same 4 abilities over and over is boring. The dps put out by a hybrid specced tank with a healbot for backup is considerably lower than that of a true tank with a dpsing healer. Playing medpack to selfish groups, that don't play in a way that the healer can also enjoy, is why healers reroll or quit the game. Sure you don't HAVE to use CC. Sure you don't have to make smart pulls. Sure you can over aggro. Sure you can ignore the adds. But only because your healer is compensating for your bad play. If this is how your groups play - why shouldn't your healer focus on what is fun for them & let someone else wipe from time to time? Better yet, if your guildies act like a PUG group, why not just PUG.

 

3) Healers not dpsing is why groups in 50 purple mods have problems with enrage timers. Young healers don't dps because they are not used to the pace yet. On more difficult encounters- there will be enrage times, and the pace will be even faster. You want your healer to feel some preasure, and develop their skills. On T1 HM- they're not under much preasure at all. Leveling puts ZERO preasure on healers, and they can medpack for their companion the whole way through.

 

4) Healers that dps, also use their interrupts- which is their cheapest heal. Non dpsing healers don't pay attention to the boss, and just heal through whatever the dps & tank fail to interrupt. By dpsing, healers learn which abilities the boss uses apply which effects, and they'll start to do things like cleanse slow effects caused by knockbacks. Or better yet, they'll just interrupt the Knockback.

 

5) All fights take less time with a dpsing healer. Which means everyone gets to kill more stuffs, & get more loot.

 

Why do healers really want to dps....

1) The difference between bonus damage & bonus healing. Bonus damage is 50% greater. If I'm geared to lay out good heals, I'm also geared for some solid ranged hits. I've cleared several of the HM's with 3 healers & a tank, without ever hitting an enrage timer. I think that says something about the dps potential of healers.

 

2) Bumping the top of the resource bar. On most fights my resource bar will fill up if I don't dps, and letting it get full is just wasted force energy. Why wouldn't I use it to dps? At the onset of every fight, I could sit there and wait for something heal, and miss out on 20 seconds of passive regen ~ OR ~ kill an add the dps are ignoring / add my great AoE damage to the pile. There is a talent in the seer tree that improves the damage/healing of all AoE - the AoE damage is actually really good, and has NO cd. Dps spec sages don't often take the talent, because it only improves 1 ability. My Healer Quake is better than your DPS sage's Quake.

 

3) Dpsing shortens the fight, and reduces the actual quantity of healing required to down bosses. So, the harder I dps, the more I can afford to dps. As a dpsing healer, backing up a quality tank, I rarely run out of force. Before I started dpsing, it would happen on almost every boss fight, because of the damage that the DPS players would take.

 

4) For some reason there always seems to be a weak or a strong hanging around that is almost dead, but the tank and dps don't see it. I see it because I'm at max range. It's doing damage~ why shouldnt' I down it with a single cast of project? The damage mitigated by killing that weak, saves me the cost of healing the damage it would have dealt. And healing that damage is almost always more expenssive than killing the wounded add.

 

5) Because I dps, I don't need the DPS players to save poor little ol' me from the weak adds that always seem to run straight for me. The same adds that tanks often ignore, expecting DPSer's to burn down, eventhough many won't.

 

TL;DR dropping mitigation stats is just selfish M'kay....

[Chaqen]

Just adding my 2 cents, I have died a few times mainly to NiM foremen crusher 3rd frenzy (as a shadow tank dont have much for CD's for this one), because the healers did not heal me properly, the reason for this was the fact that i took very lil to no damage the 1st two frenzies and they ignored the fact that i said i would be taking more damage on the 3rd frenzy....

 

But overall healers will tend to slack at times if they dont see the direct need to heal majority of the time, which will cause you to die when you are in a position that requires a heavy amount of healing.

[CitizenFry]

One thing I (as a tank) was unaware of until recently: Scoundrel healers have one ability that is VERY good, but only if the heal target is below 30%. If he wants to use that, then he has to let my HP dip a bit more.

[grallmate]

My main is a 31/10/0 sage healer in 50/50 Black hole/Columi, and I've got a Guardian tank about to start Hard Modes.

 

As a Healer doing HM I dps at some point on almost every fight.

 

Your healer ignoring your bar until you fall in to <40% territory has nothing to do with how much mitigation you have. And dropping mitigation won't do anything to help the group clear bosses, it will simply put your healer in walking med medpack mode. This won't help you at all. Your healer will still probably let you fall to 40% before healing you. What is causing this is that your healer is experimenting with their dps options, and it's messed up their timings. The problem will correct itself as your healer improves.

 

What's causing the problem atm is your healer casting TK Throw. This is the cheapest and largest dps for your healer to use, but it ties them up for almost 3 seconds with a channeled cast. In that time your health will fall from 60% to below 40%. Your healer just needs to learn how to keep you a little closer to the top, without overheal. Overhealing is what destroys a healer's resources for dpsing. If your healer is specced for Concentration, they're also casting a Disturbance before the Tk Throw. This is going to let your health fluctuate by something like 35% depending on your gear.

 

You want your healer to learn how to dps while they heal, here's why...

 

1) If the tank's gear will allow the healer to dps - healer dps is significantly higher than tank dps ~ this is how they are balanced for 1v1 PvP. The tank mitigation basically erases the healer's higher dps. Try dueling your healer, without companions. You'll probably beat the healer every time, but only because your End stack is larger, and most healers don't kite very well. Forcing your healer to not dps by buffing your own dps with non mitigation stats will actually nerf your group's overall dps. Critting on your basic saber attack will not create significant amounts of damage, or help you hold aggro while everything else is on CD.

 

2) Healers don't like healing hybrid specced/geared tanks - because throwing down the same 4 abilities over and over is boring. The dps put out by a hybrid specced tank with a healbot for backup is considerably lower than that of a true tank with a dpsing healer. Playing medpack to selfish groups, that don't play in a way that the healer can also enjoy, is why healers reroll or quit the game. Sure you don't HAVE to use CC. Sure you don't have to make smart pulls. Sure you can over aggro. Sure you can ignore the adds. But only because your healer is compensating for your bad play. If this is how your groups play - why shouldn't your healer focus on what is fun for them & let someone else wipe from time to time? Better yet, if your guildies act like a PUG group, why not just PUG.

 

3) Healers not dpsing is why groups in 50 purple mods have problems with enrage timers. Young healers don't dps because they are not used to the pace yet. On more difficult encounters- there will be enrage times, and the pace will be even faster. You want your healer to feel some preasure, and develop their skills. On T1 HM- they're not under much preasure at all. Leveling puts ZERO preasure on healers, and they can medpack for their companion the whole way through.

 

4) Healers that dps, also use their interrupts- which is their cheapest heal. Non dpsing healers don't pay attention to the boss, and just heal through whatever the dps & tank fail to interrupt. By dpsing, healers learn which abilities the boss uses apply which effects, and they'll start to do things like cleanse slow effects caused by knockbacks. Or better yet, they'll just interrupt the Knockback.

 

5) All fights take less time with a dpsing healer. Which means everyone gets to kill more stuffs, & get more loot.

 

Why do healers really want to dps....

1) The difference between bonus damage & bonus healing. Bonus damage is 50% greater. If I'm geared to lay out good heals, I'm also geared for some solid ranged hits. I've cleared several of the HM's with 3 healers & a tank, without ever hitting an enrage timer. I think that says something about the dps potential of healers.

 

2) Bumping the top of the resource bar. On most fights my resource bar will fill up if I don't dps, and letting it get full is just wasted force energy. Why wouldn't I use it to dps? At the onset of every fight, I could sit there and wait for something heal, and miss out on 20 seconds of passive regen ~ OR ~ kill an add the dps are ignoring / add my great AoE damage to the pile. There is a talent in the seer tree that improves the damage/healing of all AoE - the AoE damage is actually really good, and has NO cd. Dps spec sages don't often take the talent, because it only improves 1 ability. My Healer Quake is better than your DPS sage's Quake.

 

3) Dpsing shortens the fight, and reduces the actual quantity of healing required to down bosses. So, the harder I dps, the more I can afford to dps. As a dpsing healer, backing up a quality tank, I rarely run out of force. Before I started dpsing, it would happen on almost every boss fight, because of the damage that the DPS players would take.

 

4) For some reason there always seems to be a weak or a strong hanging around that is almost dead, but the tank and dps don't see it. I see it because I'm at max range. It's doing damage~ why shouldnt' I down it with a single cast of project? The damage mitigated by killing that weak, saves me the cost of healing the damage it would have dealt. And healing that damage is almost always more expenssive than killing the wounded add.

 

5) Because I dps, I don't need the DPS players to save poor little ol' me from the weak adds that always seem to run straight for me. The same adds that tanks often ignore, expecting DPSer's to burn down, eventhough many won't.

 

TL;DR dropping mitigation stats is just selfish M'kay....

 

You also don't seem to have understood my point. As my mitigation has increased, my healer can afford to let my HP drop lower because my TTL is a lot longer. Now TTL at 40% hp is close to what my fresh 50 TTL was at 80%+. However, that seems counter-intuitive at first. I have better gear, why am I taking more damage? Because my healer isn't healing me as frequently. Really, it just looked like I was taking more damage because my health was dropping lower than it had previously. My OP was an inquiry as to if other tanks had experienced a similar thing.

 

The only downside of this situation is that my HP threshold for popping a CD is usually around 20-30% depending on the fight. Because thats the point where I'm buying my healer an extra few seconds to heal me, however, that becomes an issue if thats the point my healer starts to heal me, especially if I've popped Enure and its about to end. Easily fixed by a quick chat or VoIP but as general practice can cause a wipe.

 

I was not saying that my healer shouldn't DPS. I like that my healer doesn't have to heal very often. It also helps when we get DPS that are terrible at moving out of red circles or following a kill order. But honestly, we are talking completely different levels of content. I'm concerned with HM EC and your talking about HM FPs. My healer and I can 2 man all HM FPs except LI to give you an indication of difficulty.

 

Also, 3 (over) geared healers are always gonna out DPS 2 under geared DPS. Stats for healing and DPS are extremely similar: accuracy for DPS and different weightings (ie 40% crit being useful for healer, but often too much for DPS). Often what you get from a DPS tree is:

- Improved resource management for DPS abilities

- Extra DPS abilities

- Improved damage on DPS abilities

- Procs

In a healing tree you get just change D for H and its the same. You can still do heal in a DPS tree or DPS in a heal tree, but you will do less than if you specced for it. Your heal per ability or damage per ability is usually less than 20% different specced. Procs/Resource management/extra abilities make up the rest of the difference. So while your Disturbance still hits hard, over time you are dealing significantly less DPS than a DPS spec in the same gear. Tanking is another beast, our secondary stats are different so our DPS will never even come close to a true DPS's.

 

As a Sage you also have an armor boost on your HoT which you should be trying to keep up on your tank at all times. It reduces the damage they take and gives a small amount of healing and gives you the Conveyance proc for when you need to actually heal. You should DPS when you don't need to heal, but you shouldn't DPS at the expense of healing.

 

Again I have meandered off topic but there you go.

 

TL;DR: I have better gear, why am I taking more damage? Because my healer isn't healing me as frequently. Really, it just looked like I was taking more damage because my health was dropping lower than it had previously and I wondered if this was common or just me and my healer.

[Cleet_Xia]

I was not saying that my healer shouldn't DPS. I like that my healer doesn't have to heal very often. It also helps when we get DPS that are terrible at moving out of red circles or following a kill order. But honestly, we are talking completely different levels of content. I'm concerned with HM EC and your talking about HM FPs. My healer and I can 2 man all HM FPs except LI to give you an indication of difficulty.

 

Also, 3 (over) geared healers are always gonna out DPS 2 under geared DPS. Stats for healing and DPS are extremely similar: accuracy for DPS and different weightings (ie 40% crit being useful for healer, but often too much for DPS). Often what you get from a DPS tree is:

- Improved resource management for DPS abilities

- Extra DPS abilities

- Improved damage on DPS abilities

- Procs

 

Tanking is another beast, our secondary stats are different so our DPS will never even come close to a true DPS's.

 

TL;DR: I have better gear, why am I taking more damage? Because my healer isn't healing me as frequently. Really, it just looked like I was taking more damage because my health was dropping lower than it had previously and I wondered if this was common or just me and my healer.

 

Based on these things.....

 

Let me start by apologizing. I let the title of the thread put me straight into fake tank rage. And I read your original post with rage glasses on. The group finder has had too many fake tanks for me lately I guess.

 

We're actually on the same page.

 

Has your healer always DPS'd? If not, it's possible she's trying to string 3 disturbance casts for the proc & then letting them fall off. That will not work on a boss fight, except at the outset, without a tank who is severely overgeared for the content. And the force armor proc from rejuvenate has to take priority over a 3 stack of concentration, otherwise the extra regen just goes right back to healing. It is far more effective to build a 3 stack and maintain it, than it is to let it fall off. This is exactly what I did when I first started trying to use disturbance for the proc with my healing sage. It's far more effective to just pepper in a single disturbance every 4-6 casts. You can never do it optimally by casting it just in time to refresh the stack just before it falls off, unless your Alacrity is just right - and the fight mechanics permit you to turret cast.

 

The state of playing a healing sage right now~

1) Boss fights are the most mentally taxing exercise, in the game, for healing. <-- see big period

 

2) Most healers at some point in their growth were healing FP boss fights without actually watching the fight at all, because the buff icons of other group members are so damn small.

 

3) Boss fights really are not very enjoyable to play on level for healers, because it grossly limits which abilities you get to use. And everytime you repeat them, it is almost exactly the same experience. The only differences are created by players making mistakes, and that simply increases the anxiety level. It's difficult to be rewarded by your performance when it was only possible because someone else messed up. But if no one messes up-after a few times, it's not very rewarding either.

 

4) It is extremely rare for anyone to acknowledge those mistakes were made, or to congratulate healers for healing through them. Been playing my main since DEC- it's happened exactly twice.

 

5) people don't say, "we need a good healer", most of the time the attitude is that any healer can do the job. But then, the first reaction to a wipe is, "This healer suxorz"

 

6) The itemisation of mods in our gear just plain sucks.

 

7) our healing relic is a worse than worthless, white elephant.

 

8) The trash fights between the bosses, are actually more fun for healers, but everyone wants to skip that part. Blowing through without using proper mechanics or CC whenever possible, is just plain abussive, eventhough it barely saves any time.

 

9) The Black Hole Heroic 4 is more fun to heal than a HM

 

10) Pvp doesn't really exist for 50% of sage healers, and most of the others only want the relics, or the 2 piece set bonus

 

11) the 4 piece PvE set bonus is garbage

 

12) Patch 1.2 nerfed us so bad it was game breaking for a lot of sages (actually improved mine, but I digress)

 

13) 9/10 pugs have either a)a dps spec fake tanking b)dps making pulls c)a total lack of CC d)players not using their out of combat heals e)tanks making pulls while we are using our out of combat regen f)no one using interrupts unless forced to g)no one using deffensive CDs h) all of the above or some combination thereof ~ all of which increase the load on the healer.

 

The result is eventually becoming burnt out on healing. ~We just aint feelin no love... symphtoms include glazing over of the eyes, tank's health falling below 50%

 

I've quit 2 guilds already because of too many guildies refusing to even consider playing in a way that was enjoyable to heal. I am about to quit a third. All along, I've maintained unguilded toons to play on when i didn't feel like being harassed to heal through BS. I only heal HM for that once every few weeks when I draw a good group, and it's fun. I don't even care about trying to heal Ops anymore, because it's hard enough to find a good 4 man group. Most players are less interested in playing well, and more interested in zerging through to see what loot they get.

 

As for Healing NiM & HM Ops, there probably isn't an oportunity for healers to really do anything besides play "walking medpack" For all the endgame content I've seen you can do that with as few as 5 hotkeys, if both relics are passive. If you want to be a good medpack the number climbs to 10.

[gumbydpl]

One thing I (as a tank) was unaware of until recently: Scoundrel healers have one ability that is VERY good, but only if the heal target is below 30%. If he wants to use that, then he has to let my HP dip a bit more.

 

I am a Scoundrel healer and the skill you are referring to is Emergency Medpack. It is a core part of our rotation, but you can and should use it more than if your target is under 30% HP. The "very good" part of it is if your target is under 30% Hp then it is basically free(costs one stack of Upper Hand, then refunds it). It is my go to heal that I use the most (in conjunction with Slow Release Medpack).