Guardian DPS - What's The Real Deal?

[Hizoka]

I'm Vig and I can stay within 100DPS of our Sentinels with equal gear. Plus for as much as Sentinels bring, when you've got a boss to 3% and the tank goes down, a Guardian can pop Soresu, taunt, hit blade barrier and pull out the win. However I agree that Vig needs small changes to bring it up to a Sentinel's DPS. Adjustment of dot damages, and an AOE damage reduction being about it. Other than that? It's all about if you want 1 saber, 2, and if you want to cause or control the chaos.

 

the thing is they are not supposed to match the DPS of a sentinel. They are very viable.. yet everyone wants to beat sent DPS when the devs have said over and over, Gunslingers and Sentinels will be better damage then everyone else because that is all they do. I really can;t understand why that concept is something people totally utterly fail at comprehending.

 

 

Vigi DPS is really good when played right, it will not beat a sentinel but at the same time its one of the closest thing to sentinel DPS in the game while not being a sentinel.

[Hizoka]

I disagree, I have come across many sents on my server that lose to me one v one. I'm not saying its easy, mostly I win at 1% HP due to Enure, but I still win. And Higher damage output? When I remain constantly active in a WZ I NEVER lose on meters.

 

thats cause 9 out of 10 sentinels suck like a brand new hoover. Its a FOTM they herd its OP and they roll it and do not have close to the ability needed to play it well. A good sentinel will never lose to a guardian on equal footing.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Hizoka

[wispersixty]

thats cause 9 out of 10 sentinels suck like a brand new hoover. Its a FOTM they herd its OP and they roll it and do not have close to the ability needed to play it well. A good sentinel will never lose to a guardian on equal footing.

 

If ur talking about a duel, again we can agree to disagree. But if you're talking raw damage output in a WZ. You sir are dead wrong. Focus Guardians will always beat sents / mara's on meters in WZs given similar gear / skill. Simply due to the type of damage they deal. When every 12 secs i can AoE crit 5 people for 5-7k sents / mara's just cant match that kind of damage. Unless we're talking huttball.

[Yamirashi]

the thing is they are not supposed to match the DPS of a sentinel. They are very viable.. yet everyone wants to beat sent DPS when the devs have said over and over, Gunslingers and Sentinels will be better damage then everyone else because that is all they do. I really can;t understand why that concept is something people totally utterly fail at comprehending.

 

Link one... All I've ever seen is people getting mad at the devs who refuse to say this because the devs claim that Guardian DPS should be just as good as Sentinel DPS whether they have options or not. Guardians have a choice between 2 styles of DPS and 1 Tank, where Sentinel has a choice between 3 styles of DPS, but that doesn't mean they should be better at it than guardians. That has been what I've heard from the Devs since this game was in Beta. And I've heard people QQ about it every time the devs would say it. Now everyone is upset because it hasn't turned out to be true and you realize why the devs wanted it to be equal DPS in the first place. You should chose the class and style DPS you want to and be equal to any other DPS in the game, not having to chose sentinel/gunslinger because its innately better and will always be better.

[Jageera]

If ur talking about a duel, again we can agree to disagree.

That's a different Twilek.

But if you're talking raw damage output in a WZ. You sir are dead wrong. Focus Guardians will always beat sents / mara's on meters in WZs given similar gear / skill. Simply due to the type of damage they deal. When every 12 secs i can AoE crit 5 people for 5-7k sents / mara's just cant match that kind of damage. Unless we're talking huttball.

You do realize that Sentinels can spec Focus, right? In fact, most good Sents go Focus for Rated. The difference in damage is their offhand damage on melee hits and our 10% bonus for a couple seconds after Leap from PVP gear. Otherwise, it's exactly the same.

 

Oh, and another thing about Focus Guardians vs. Focus Sentinels: as I've mentioned several times before, all good Sentinels pick up Defensive Roll. This gives good Sentinels autowin vs. Focus Guardians.

[Savej]

dps guardian vs dps sentinel 1v1 should be no contest. The guardian shines in 2v2+ if he uses his taunts and guard; a guardian + sent might beat 2 sents. I play both classes extensively and while my focus guardian can top my watchman's damage in a wz, my watchman doesn't ever lose in duels or 1v1s against dps guards/juggs. It just doesn't happen unless all of my cooldowns are shot at the beginning of the fight and even then I'll beat most.

[Andrew_Past]

I don't understand how people are losing 1v1 so much. On my Guardian, I only know of one sentinel that I can't beat in a duel 1v1 on a consistent basis (I still beat him about 30% of the time.)

 

Edit: This is out of WZs, so in WZs, I would have the benefit of having a WZ medpac which heals based on a percentage. So, with enure activate, it heals me for about 7.5k. This is much better than the rakata medpac, and would probably allow me to beat the said sentinel consistently. This is evidenced by the fact that I win the vast majority of my fights against sents/maruaders in WZs.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Andrew_Past

[Jageera]

I don't understand how people are losing 1v1 so much. On my Guardian, I only know of one sentinel that I can't beat in a duel 1v1 on a consistent basis (I still beat him about 30% of the time.)

 

Edit: This is out of WZs, so in WZs, I would have the benefit of having a WZ medpac which heals based on a percentage. So, with enure activate, it heals me for about 7.5k. This is much better than the rakata medpac, and would probably allow me to beat the said sentinel consistently. This is evidenced by the fact that I win the vast majority of my fights against sents/maruaders in WZs.

In other words, there's one decent Sentinel on your server. We've said it all over that most Sents are garbage.

[Andrew_Past]

In other words, there's one decent Sentinel on your server. We've said it all over that most Sents are garbage.

 

Or, may it be possible, that Guardians are fine and people need to stop QQing and learn their class/the game? Ever consider that option?

Edited July 10, 2012 by Andrew_Past

[Jageera]

Or, may it be possible, that Guardians are fine and people need to stop QQing and learn their class/the game? Ever consider that option?

Guardians are fine. The only part of Guardian that hasn't been fine is the Defense tree. I'm not QQing and know the game well enough. Doesn't keep me from being realistic about this particular dueling scenario. Sent's just got the edge in this battle.

[Andrew_Past]

Guardians are fine. The only part of Guardian that hasn't been fine is the Defense tree. I'm not QQing and know the game well enough. Doesn't keep me from being realistic about this particular dueling scenario. Sent's just got the edge in this battle.

 

I disagree based off of experience in extensive dueling and rated wzs.

[Jageera]

I disagree based off of experience in extensive dueling and rated wzs.

That's cool man. We've discussed it to death. Thread's good to go.

[wispersixty]

That's a different Twilek.You do realize that Sentinels can spec Focus, right? In fact, most good Sents go Focus for Rated. The difference in damage is their offhand damage on melee hits and our 10% bonus for a couple seconds after Leap from PVP gear. Otherwise, it's exactly the same.

 

Oh, and another thing about Focus Guardians vs. Focus Sentinels: as I've mentioned several times before, all good Sentinels pick up Defensive Roll. This gives good Sentinels autowin vs. Focus Guardians.

 

Nothing in any MMO is autowin unless ur Orangemarmalade. And we play on vastly different servers. I have yet to see a good focus spec Sent. EVERY Sent on my server who is worth anything plays Watchmen, just the way it rolls on my server i guess. I feel as tho the focus tree lacks Defense and everytime i see a focus Sent they get rolled by me, as a focus guardian its pretty easy to beat other focus guardians and sents simply because I know the roto, very easy to stop smash damage. Any skilled player can easily work around it. I mean thats the reason i play it, because skilled players can easily work around it therefore making it harder to play sometimes. I am just speaking from personal experience here and it very well could be the way you spin it. I'm just saying, on My server, I have yet to lose to a Sent on meters in WZ's when We spend equal time being active.

[Swarlesx]

I have played both classes and I didn't see to big of a gap in damage. But sentinel was easier to play. I found that my DoTs were doing most of the work for me. I personally prefer Vig Guardian. It is fun to see all the nice DoT numbers jumping around as Sentinel but I found the class to be a little boring. As guardian you do get some abilities that sentinels don't. If you utilize your defensive abilities and powers like force push it can make fights against sentinels and marauders easier to handle.

[RyderQuanTy]

I hae played both gardians and i like vigilance better i like the single target damage and it has the best survivability of all the dpsers in heavy armor. My pvp rotation is FL- MS- Sunder- PB- OHS-BS-FF- Gardian leap-(let the dot role and protect now) Taunt- Force leap - if your in a croud throw in FS and aoe taunt use force push and isolate and begin. use stasis as needed and use saber throw befor leap or hold it to range atack a node when on defence. i keep focused in cool down and usef force focus to pop it.

 

Vig vs Sent depends on sent spec.

 

whatchmen and combat although combat it harder should be kited when rebuke is active forget about kiting focus.

 

assuming they use rebuk to start go w/ with enure sunder and ff

 

kit 6 sec u should take a hit or 2 and could still have a hit left on enure

 

they will come to u force focus MS blaid barrior sunder pb ohs bs stasis if ms reset force push if MS if not go sunder pb hold fp and fs for camo

Edited July 12, 2012 by RyderQuanTy

[Draqsko]

I hae played both gardians and i like vigilance better i like the single target damage and it has the best survivability of all the dpsers in heavy armor. My pvp rotation is FL- MS- Sunder- PB- OHS-BS-FF- Gardian leap-(let the dot role and protect now) Taunt- Force leap - if your in a croud throw in FS and aoe taunt use force push and isolate and begin. use stasis as needed and use saber throw befor leap or hold it to range atack a node when on defence. i keep focused in cool down and usef force focus to pop it.

 

Vig vs Sent depends on sent spec.

 

whatchmen and combat although combat it harder should be kited when rebuke is active forget about kiting focus.

 

assuming they use rebuk to start go w/ with enure sunder and ff

 

kit 6 sec u should take a hit or 2 and could still have a hit left on enure

 

they will come to u force focus MS blaid barrior sunder pb ohs bs stasis if ms reset force push if MS if not go sunder pb hold fp and fs for camo

 

Enure is imaginary hp by the way, the only time you use it is if you are about to die, and know you can kill the person attacking you in the time limit of enure, with an extra 30% hp. Soon as enure drops off you, you lose all the hp off your current total that it gives you. So using enure to suck up hits is only worth it if you are about to be killed, and you are close to killing the person hitting you. When it drops, then you'll have 1 hp remaining if your remaining hp is less than the buff enure adds, or you'll have the remaining hp left after you subtract enure's buff when it drops.

 

You won't have plasma brand and blade barrier. It's physically impossible to have 31 points in Vigilance, and more than 10 points in Defense, you couldn't even get Warding Call when you take Plasma Brand.

[Fardarter]

the thing is they are not supposed to match the DPS of a sentinel. They are very viable.. yet everyone wants to beat sent DPS when the devs have said over and over, Gunslingers and Sentinels will be better damage then everyone else because that is all they do. I really can;t understand why that concept is something people totally utterly fail at comprehending.

 

 

Vigi DPS is really good when played right, it will not beat a sentinel but at the same time its one of the closest thing to sentinel DPS in the game while not being a sentinel.

 

Just because a class has the option to tank or heal does not mean they are spec'd to. if you are spec'd dps you are dps regardless of class. You could make this argument better if multispecs were in the game, they're not. Heavy armor is overrated, it does little by itself. Only with shield + tank stance does the armor really make a difference.By doing so you are gimping your dps severely since so much of said damage is tied to your dps stance. Same goes for heals, if you are not spec' d to heal it really isnt worthwhile and will sap your resources too quickly to be useful. Based on this a DPS spec regardless of class should be more or less equal. I would argue melee classes should do more damage per hit since they are at a distinct disadvantage to ranged in terms of time to target and cc. My guardian is only mid 30s so i haven't seen what they can do at 50 yet but I do have a 50 sent and a 45 marauder. I would argue a watchman sent is just as durable if not more so than a dps guardian, if you play it right you can heal a ton as a sent and their defensives are just awesome.

 

If you played Sents in beta you know that the whole zen mechanic was added at the last second and made the class very powerful. Guardians as the other melee class never got that treatment and I believe that is why they are a weaker class. If you look at the numbers of sents vs guards I think it about sums it up. For whatever reason they are a much more attractive class.

[Sjax]

If you look at the numbers of sents vs guards I think it about sums it up. For whatever reason they are a much more attractive class.

 

By what? A hundred forum posts? I can understand that you personally favor sentinels and marauders but don't let that fool you into thinking they are a much more attractive class. They are a much more attractive class than a Guardian if you prefer to have three damage specializations, that much is true.

[Jageera]

By what? A hundred forum posts? I can understand that you personally favor sentinels and marauders but don't let that fool you into thinking they are a much more attractive class. They are a much more attractive class than a Guardian if you prefer to have three damage specializations, that much is true.

It's three specs that are all very good in a PVP environment, which cannot be said for the Guardian. One of the Guardian's trees has been garbage since the class was programmed. DPS Vig wasn't viable until 1.2; just before 1.2, PVP Guardians were pigeon-holed into Focus or Hyrbid tank. Now, DPS Vig is catching up (but still behind), Hyrbid Tank isn't as good (but still very viable), and Defense is even worse than it was.

 

Compare that three very, very, very good trees that all DPS like crazy and are not broken in the least in the Sentinel. (And yeah, Combat was bugged and broken pre-1.2, but not garbage) Oh yeah, and they have 3 AC-wide defensive CDs to the Guardian's 1. Transcendence and Inspiration easily make up for tanking mechanics and friendly leap, imo, but that's subjective.

 

However, nothing beats a Guardian in Huttball. Especially if said Guardian has Unremitting.

[Xavory]

Most pvp servers have dueling tournaments I would assume, yes? Post me the brackets from a dueling tournament on a pvp server with a guardian or jugg winning the tournament. Shouldn't be a problem if there are so many "baws" duelists out there that beat marauders/sents all the time, right?

 

Until we can /copy to a test server, this is the only way to really put the " i beat XXX all the time" debate/debacle in context. On our server, there is no Guardian/Jugg that can kill our Marauder, regardless of which spec he picks. In annihilation he can probably 1v2 90% of them......

Edited July 13, 2012 by Xavory

[Kaorunandrak]

To be honest I have not had any issues in either pvp or in pve with my guardian I use a hybrid build with a focus on vigilance and the rest going into deffense. This has made me difficult to kill and I inflict tons of damage setting npc's and pc's on fire with bladestorm and overhead slash. I don't see how soresu form gimps my character at all in terms of damage or survivability. However I will say between my Sith Marauder and my jedi Guardian I do like playing my guardian more as he SEEMS IMHO to be good at everything no matter what I'm doing. My marauder isn't really plagued by anything and it is a great class and character I just feel my guardian is better at whatever I am wanting to do.

[Nyo-Than]

question, i have recently started a focus guardian and i'm unsure what form is best for use in a wz? i use soresu since i seem to last longer in wz's. also what should i have in my offhand, shield or focus?

[Alec_Fortescue]

Hi, just gonna throw in my two coins regarding Vigilance/Vengeance WZ and Fleet dummy DPS.

 

I am not full Campaign (hell, got even Columi mods...) and this is my average result from 3-4 minute combat with the strongest dummy:

http://www.torparse.com/a/740

 

And warzones:

http://postimage.org/image/ojserx1ov/ -- 550k reached too, but not documented, though.

 

http://postimage.org/image/tlxc406c9/ -- 300k single target damage in Denova (totally different from Voidstar) :-)

 

I am not even in fully augmented and modified War Hero.

 

Rage is cheap.

[Draqsko]

question, i have recently started a focus guardian and i'm unsure what form is best for use in a wz? i use soresu since i seem to last longer in wz's. also what should i have in my offhand, shield or focus?

 

For focus, you want to use Shii-Cho form, and offhand focus.. Soresu is for tanks, pure and hybrid.. And you won't get much use out of shield without using Soresu.