Healing is fine, they said. Just gear up, they said.

[Veeius]

And as a healer I should be able to heal myself against one dps with ease.

 

Absolutely wrong. At the far far far far outside, you should ******BARELY****** be able to heal yourself against 1 dps. If you can easily outheal 1 dps, than NO ONE COULD EVER DIE, because in a group you have guards, you have cross heals, you have peals. you could NEVER die if you could outheal a dps in that situation.

 

How should I be able to support my team if I die from one dps with no chance but running.

 

you take a dps out of the fight while that person runs after you. Also, your team fails for not pealing.

 

I think a dps should be able to make me heal just myself in order to survive, but he should not be able to kill me.

 

Again, you fix it so that's the case, then when you get guard, it's going to take 3 or 4 guys just to take out a healer/tank combo, then add on cross heals, add on peels, and healers just won't die, which means no one else will die, which means pvp will SUCK.

[Khoraji]

 

Simply not true. DPS work just fine on their own. Tanks also do pretty good on their own... their guard protects DPS just as much as it does healers, and they are also capable of doing relevant damage. Frankly, you could remove healers from this game right now and I feel like nobody would actually notice.

 

I take it you dont play rated... DPS melt like crazy and so do tanks without the healers (sorcs included)

[Rogozhi]

I think that's the fix right there. The AE heal should have a second buff that interacts with guard. If someone guards a Sorc/Sage healer with the AE heal specced they get a 20% damage boost buff.

 

Healers get nothing more than guard so are not imbalanced and tanks get DPS to do as much damage as all the DPS classes do these days anyways. Tanks doing their job of guarding is rewarded and further they can actually protect healers with the extra damage they would do.

 

What difference is more classes doing more damage at this point. This kind of fix is something BW would do as well..anything to lower TTK and BW will throw millions at it to get it implemented.

 

First: Tanks would become imbalanced.

 

Second: BW has been trying to increase TTK.

 

Refer to: Relic Changes 1.3

[LancelotOC]

First: Tanks would become imbalanced.

 

Second: BW has been trying to increase TTK.

 

Refer to: Relic Changes 1.3

 

So what if they get imbalanced. Why not tanks be top dogs this round. For us sor/sage healers at least it would be better. That a class is oped on the dps side is no different than it is now. The threads were here with us complaining from before 1.2 . The Sorc/Sage healers complaints are the most ongoing theme on these forums.

 

BW may be trying to reduce TTK but they also are trying to balance things. That you'd get every healer guarded would let them get more static data on the state of team play and Guard's effect.

 

They release things mostly blind anyways as not enough test on test server. Why were we all ok with them testing other things on live all these months but testing oped tanks in the mix would not be ok. I dont think people would generally mind this type of fix. To not effect PVE they make it an expertise damage bonus mutipler. Tanks that guard get double the expertise effect for their damage.

 

Subscriber wise sorc/sage healer players would finally get a respite from being melted and tanks could even try being tanky for a change. Yes some tanks will stay dps and use this to further them but they will be limited to the 15 range limitation for the dps buff. You will probobly get stronger commitment from tank playing subscribers as well. The only ones who wouldn't be excited about it would be egocentric types playing the stronger classses that wouldnt want to share the DPS pedestal with tanks. Those folks would get over it because they not getting straight nerfed just getting other classes being brought up to them.

Edited July 12, 2012 by LancelotOC

[Never_Hesitate]

First: Tanks would become imbalanced.

 

Second: BW has been trying to increase TTK.

 

Refer to: Relic Changes 1.3

 

The TTK went down with 1.3

The burst every 2 min went down but the sustained dmg went up.

[Never_Hesitate]

So what if they get imbalanced. Why not tanks be top dogs this round. For us sor/sage healers at least it would be better. That a class is oped on the dps side is no different than it is now. The threads were here with us complaining from before 1.2 . The Sorc/Sage healers complaints are the most ongoing theme on these forums.

 

BW may be trying to reduce TTK but they also are trying to balance things. That you'd get every healer guarded would let them get more static data on the state of team play and Guard's effect.

 

They release things mostly blind anyways as not enough test on test server. Why were we all ok with them testing other things on live all these months but testing oped tanks in the mix would not be ok. I dont think people would generally mind this type of fix. To not effect PVE they make it an expertise damage bonus mutipler. Tanks that guard get double the expertise effect for their damage.

 

Subscriber wise sorc/sage healer players would finally get a respite from being melted and tanks could even try being tanky for a change. Yes some tanks will stay dps and use this to further them but they will be limited to the 15 range limitation for the dps buff. You will probobly get stronger commitment from tank playing subscribers as well. The only ones who wouldn't be excited about it would be egocentric types playing the stronger classses that wouldnt want to share the DPS pedestal with tanks. Those folks would get over it because they not getting straight nerfed just getting other classes being brought up to them.

 

A better idea would to reduce the dmg the tank takes.

Because a tank is a defensive class not an offensive one.

[MbaxterBeau]

And why cant you stun him + heal yourself back up when you are un-stunned?

 

There is no single class that can do 15k-19k damage within 4 seconds, sorry but that only happens when you are getting focused, at which point you SHOULD die. Dieing is a part of pvp, especially against a group of people who know how to play together.

 

 

 

It gives you that opportunity against sub-par competition (to say the least). AKA it means nothing.

 

 

 

So your just going to completely ignore daily and weekly rewards to get your point accross huh?

 

10750 comms for full BM if you didnt save anything while pvping 10-49 (your own fault, you should have 5500 comms saved)

 

What did I say, a MAX of 2 weeks right?

Lets say you only do the daily and then logoff every day. It takes 3 wins or 6 losses, lets just say you win 2 and lose 2 every day. That is 420 comms a day

14 days of winning 2 and losing 2 wz's: 5880

14 dailies = 2800 comms

2 weeklies = 1200 comms

That is 9880 while only playing 1 hour a day for 2 weeks. Play for an extra hour during the weekends and you have your full BM set in 2 weeks. And that is without saving comms in 10-49 like you should have.

 

 

 

Read above, why has it taken you so long to get BM gear?

 

 

 

Do you never get white-barred or ever use your stun breaker? Where is your team? Where is your guard? Do you ever use YOUR stun?

 

I am telling you 1v1 healer vs dps is a stalemate for me at 1338 expertise and 20k HP.

 

As your title suggests, gear up and you will be fine.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about but good try telling a healer how good their survivabilty is. You sound like someone who 1. Has never pvp'd past level 50 2. Never played as a sorcerer healer. I'm going with both 1 & 2 lol

[MbaxterBeau]

i would agree with the "healer needs tank to be viable" if all dps classes actually had a debuff on them that they would make 50% less damage if not on a 10m radius of another dps or tank.

 

Cut the crap please, why do i need babysitting to be viable and no other role in the game needs?

 

"healers are too strong with guards and team mates!!"

 

oh yeah? Tell me which class/role isnt too strong with adequade support behind them?

 

My rated groups guards important dps people when needed, we peel off dps when they are being *****, that makes them very strong indeed.

 

You guys are so full of crap its coming out from the top of your heads.

 

^^ this!!!

[islander]

I have an undergeared smugg, and a barely geared bounty hunter.

 

If a mara gets on me and I don't have guard and I don't have peals and I don't have cross heals, I die, and I die FAST.

 

IF I have guard, peels, and cross heals - 3/4ths of their team won't take me down.

 

Put another way - in groups we're fine. If you try to rambo, you're going to get smacked down. If they fixed it so we could do good in 1v1, then you could put every single person on their team on my undergeared ***, and with 1 other healer, a guardian, and mabbe 1 dps, I'd spend the whole match alternating between hotting myself and /clubdance.

 

If your team is letting you die, that's their bag, not bw's.

 

There is some truth to this.

 

I'd just say that the main problem most rational sorcs/sages have, is that we are, hands down, the least surviviable healer. What do we have in its place? Nothing really. A force speed burst for 2 seconds every 30. Whirlwind with a long cast bar. It's not enough. The irony about sorcerers/sages is that in order to be more surviviable, you get to play DPS.

 

Your point about actual team play (which barely exists in 8 man's, much less pugs) is completely valid. I am shocked at how stupid other healers are sometimes. I personally function as a secondary healer. My FIRST healing target is the primary/full spec healer. My second target is whoever is guarding me (if applicable) after that it's common sense targets.

 

I was keeping a merc healer upright the other night for 2/3 of voidstar, and finally he realized "gee, maybe if afto dies I will die fast" so he started focusing on me when I was getting aggro.

Edited July 12, 2012 by islander

[LegionAlpha]

No. Healers are the most powerful class on the battlefield. Gear up to end game gear,L2P, and join an 8man with a competent tank.

 

/thread

 

Ugh I remember face rolling ur 8 man for a whole day last week. Haven't played on that server in a while cuz I'm playing on my other toon on a different one. You really need to learn to play cuz you are just awful.

[BurnsTwoThree]

Ugh I remember face rolling ur 8 man for a whole day last week. Haven't played on that server in a while cuz I'm playing on my other toon on a different one. You really need to learn to play cuz you are just awful.

 

He's European, you're American.

 

He's awful because he thinks killing undergeared players isn't the reason he's 2400.

You're awful because you're not even European.

[Never_Hesitate]

He's European, you're American.

 

He's awful because he thinks killing undergeared players isn't the reason he's 2400.

You're awful because you're not even European.

 

Nice.

[upzie]

Hillarious what effect Dmasterr's words got on you guys, a good guess is that there are some truth to them, and you dont like hearing it

[Tathais]

I take it you dont play rated... DPS melt like crazy and so do tanks without the healers (sorcs included)

 

Would that not further suggest that damage is too high?

 

The point, though, was that DPS can do DPS on their own and kill things. Tanks can guard anyone and mitigate damage. Healers, or at least Sorc/Sage healers, cannot do anything without a tank guarding and a full team baby sitting them. Even then, there's still a few situations where, because of leap/pull, there's not a whole lot you can do to save them.

 

If the other healers don't take this level of incoming damage, it means their team gets time to assist them. This isn't the case with Sorc... it's pretty easy for a PT to grapple them into the team, or for a few marauders to leap to someone and destroy them. These are things that even a top-level team would have a hard time reacting to, and dealing with.

[Never_Hesitate]

Hillarious what effect Dmasterr's words got on you guys, a good guess is that there are some truth to them, and you dont like hearing it

 

And maybe there is some truth in our words as well and he doesn't like hearing it.

[BurnsTwoThree]

And maybe there is some truth in our words as well and he doesn't like hearing it.

 

There's more truth in what were saying as half the things he's saying is just "L2P" to people who aren't playing OP classes.

[Khoraji]

You have no idea what you're talking about but good try telling a healer how good their survivabilty is. You sound like someone who 1. Has never pvp'd past level 50 2. Never played as a sorcerer healer. I'm going with both 1 & 2 lol

 

Can you give any insight into how i was wrong in the post you quoted?

 

 

didnt think so. troll

[Khoraji]

Would that not further suggest that damage is too high?

 

The point, though, was that DPS can do DPS on their own and kill things. Tanks can guard anyone and mitigate damage. Healers, or at least Sorc/Sage healers, cannot do anything without a tank guarding and a full team baby sitting them. Even then, there's still a few situations where, because of leap/pull, there's not a whole lot you can do to save them.

 

If the other healers don't take this level of incoming damage, it means their team gets time to assist them. This isn't the case with Sorc... it's pretty easy for a PT to grapple them into the team, or for a few marauders to leap to someone and destroy them. These are things that even a top-level team would have a hard time reacting to, and dealing with.

 

No it doesnt suggest that at all. When half the team is beating on someone, they SHOULD melt without a healer. Does it suck getting focused? Of course, but thats the whole point. Focus is the only way to kill someone in ranked pvp.

 

And yes, sorcs are squishy little bugs, especially without a guard. But they are still able to heal, all I have been trying to say this whole time is that you are over-exaggerating the problem a bit. You dont die in 2 seconds to a single marauder, you die in 2 seconds to 2 marauder, a PT, and a sniper all hitting you at once. I play with a sorc healer pretty much every day, does he die more than me? Yes, but he also heals for just as much as me if not higher depending on the map.

[Sock_Bramson]

As I've said, I do think sorcs/sages could use some very minor improvements. However, we are by no means broken. I've been having a blast is rateds and will continue to do so. Hell, I'd have to admit that the best healer I've seen on our server is a sage who's full heal spec, supposedly the most useless heal spec for pvp. (I still prefer my corruption/lit. spec because I enjoy it's play-style more) The point being that there are sorc/sage healers out there (more than just me and dude-man mc'sage on our server), who consistently do well in rateds.

 

Healers aren't gimped for relying on their teammates; that's the nature of the role. Every class relies on others to do well in WZs because that is the nature of 8v8 play. Every team needs a good mix of classes and roles to do well. Try playing a game with only DPS PTs and Maras against a well-balanced team with at least one healer and you'll see that DPS does, in fact, need help. Try playing a game without any gaurds or taunts against a team with at least one good tank and you'll soon wish you had one yourself. And, obviously, a team without any DPS is going to have a terrible time.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[islander]

Well, in 8 vs 8 there's passive reliance on others (i.e. not being queued with 3-4 actually bad players) versus active reliance on others, which is more subtle (tank specs who know to guard a healer and proactively ask/do so).

 

A PvPer can be highly skilled but not be the latter. You'll still win warzones with this type of player, but it's easier to do so if he's both passive good, and actively as well.

[DirtyNades]

I don't see why people whine so much! I play a 50 bounty hunter healer and I have no pvp gear what so ever, so guess what? Yeah you guessed it I have no expertise! And it takes about 20-30 hits to kill me, and that's if they stun me at the right times or interrupt. Stop complaining and sitting there getting beat on learn to play.

[islander]

I don't see why people whine so much! I play a 50 bounty hunter healer and I have no pvp gear what so ever, so guess what? Yeah you guessed it I have no expertise! And it takes about 20-30 hits to kill me, and that's if they stun me at the right times or interrupt. Stop complaining and sitting there getting beat on learn to play.

 

You were facing bad opponents, and you have medium armor.

The difference between light and medium is substantial, by itself.

Edited July 12, 2012 by islander

[Khoraji]

You were facing bad opponents, and you have medium armor.

The difference between light and medium is substantial, by itself.

 

You mean heavy armor...

[sanchito]

Just wanted to chime in to say that in my opinion, a sage healer has 2 options; you either run with a dedicated tank, or with a 21 point build.

 

With a 31 point healer build you just dont have the tools to stay alive as soon as 2 (equally geared) dps decide to kill you. While your still gonna die to them eventually with a 21 point build, you can really annoy them for quite some time, while bubbling the rest of your team and keeping them alive longer. In pugs, frequently the dps atacking me just look for easier targets after a while...

Edited July 12, 2012 by sanchito

[Tathais]

No it doesnt suggest that at all. When half the team is beating on someone, they SHOULD melt without a healer. Does it suck getting focused? Of course, but thats the whole point. Focus is the only way to kill someone in ranked pvp.

 

I will grant you that this is how SWTOR works, and actually how most games work. I'm not a fan that there is no counter to coordinated focus DPS. I feel like, in order to maintain a skill based contest, you should be able to counter this. I think the problem is that SWTOR is the worst of the bunch. Damage in this game is the highest out of any PvP MMO I've played, including vanilla WoW where trinketed POM/Pyro was king. Sure you'd get one-shot in those days, but at least it was only once every three minutes

 

Anyway, it's fair to say there's a distinct difference between how it works and how I think it should work. I can accept this... I can't accept it coming from one player though (cont'd below).

 

And yes, sorcs are squishy little bugs, especially without a guard. But they are still able to heal, all I have been trying to say this whole time is that you are over-exaggerating the problem a bit. You dont die in 2 seconds to a single marauder, you die in 2 seconds to 2 marauder, a PT, and a sniper all hitting you at once. I play with a sorc healer pretty much every day, does he die more than me? Yes, but he also heals for just as much as me if not higher depending on the map.

 

I think this is our main source of contention... that you think I'm lying/over-exaggerating the problem but I'm really not. I'm rational enough to admit if I'm wrong, and have no need to get my back up over and internet argument and would be happy to have this situation not happen because there was some easy fix. There isn't... we've got 40+ pages of thread discussing it and I'm still a little dismayed that we're hung up on the same point.

 

It feels like we're failing to meet eye to eye on two points here:

 

1) Incoming damage on Sorc/Sage is very high... to the point where 1v1 a Sage isn't able to successfully heal themselves.

 

For this I've given you a screenshot of the kinds of damage we take. It was 2/3's of my life delivered in two seconds. It happened, and there's nothing I can do in order to counter it. It's too much too quickly, and the tools I have at my disposal don't allow me to counter it, or recover from it. So yes, I am dying to a single marauder that quickly... I'm dying even more quickly to focused fire. I don't know how else to convey this point other than to ask you to play a BM Sorc in PuG WZ to get a feel for what I'm experiencing. The implications of that last statement tie into the next point...

 

2) This game should only be balanced around, and accessible to, all levels of play.

 

This game, or any single AC/spec, shouldn't require you to dedicate your life to it in order to play and enjoy it. Not everybody can do this, not everybody wants to do this. I'm not saying the game shouldn't have balanced competitive play, just that this balance should include casual play as well. This is not something that is hard to achieve and several suggestions have been made already, it's just something that needs to be done. So if Sorc's are fine in your high-level ranked matches, they certainly are not in PuG WZ playing without a coordinated team. Balance is possible here...

 

Keep in mind that we do pay the same $15 a month as you do, and we are entitled to a fair, balanced, and fun experience. You are also entitled to this. If it's not provided, a lot of folks will pack up and move on for greener pastures, which may well be fine as far as your concerned, and this is probably true, but only for the short term. This game is built upon the existence of a community and if that community enjoying themselves, portions of it will move on. Ultimately, it will fall apart.

 

From all perspectives, this game has thus far seen exactly that. Upon release servers were full and PvP queues were popping frequently. Over time server populations have thinned and PvP queues stopped occurring because people weren't enjoying it (for any number of reasons). Server transfers have alleviated the impact of fewer players, but the evidence of the trend is there. People are leaving SWTOR. BW should probably start paying attention to why people are unhappy... and for a lot of people in this thread including myself, it's because they are getting killed very quickly in PvP through no direct fault of their own, and they aren't enjoying it.