Healing is fine, they said. Just gear up, they said.

[Tathais]

That plague in WoW was mostly due to how diminishing returns system worked.

 

Here? with resolve being a binary system, and easy to "cap".I disagree with the above.

 

Gear is irrelevant, to game balance. and the rest is Skill >=Team>class.

 

There was a thread floating about that detailed the differences in stats for each tier of gear. It was actually a pretty big difference. You'd be kidding yourself if you thought gear was irrelevant. That's part of the problem outlined in the OP. I was getting crushed in recruit and I was told that if I got BM, all would be well. I got BM but I'm still getting crushed by others in BM, and absolutely destroyed by people in WH. Refer to the screenshot posted somewhere in the 23-27 page range where a Marauder does 10k damage to me in a very short timespan (less than 2 seconds).

 

It's been 40 pages of thread and you keep saying the same thing. You're fine if you get a team to baby sit you. This doesn't make you fine. Other healers stand on their own, DPS stand on their own. Having a team makes those classes better, but they play just fine on their own. This is more true of DPS than it is of merc/op healers. Sorc/Sage on the other hand, appears to be absolutely worthless without a team. That's a clear imbalance.

 

Additionally, you keep throwing L2P and skill > ____ around like it's an instant solution. Not everybody has a team to play with and PuG WZ exist to be played. Like it or not, there's still a pretty large class imbalance. It comes right back to what I've been saying this whole time. If healers with guard are too stong, and healers without guard are too weak, make healers stronger and guard weaker.

 

No class should be in such a binary situation. It's why you have people shelving Sorc/Sage characters left right and center. Apparently you find a few people who stuck it out and have a really good team to support them, but the average case is that the class is just not working. So congrats on finding an exception, but it does not define the rule.

[Iggster]

I started this game as a Sage and have only used the healing tree since the adv class. I'm only level 33 since I keep getting distracted levelling alts.

 

I've only recently started playing WZ's. And I've noticed my ability to survive doesn't come from my healing... It comes from my ability to remain unnoticed. However, once I've been spotted I very rarely survive, my only hope is someone starts attacking my attacker, since it's near impossible to squeeze off my big heals without being interrupted/cc'd.

[Retro_Chrome]

No. Healers are the most powerful class on the battlefield. Gear up to end game gear,L2P, and join an 8man with a competent tank.

 

/thread

 

 

i hate you dmaster for your attitude towards people but when you are right, you are right and this is spot on.

[Never_Hesitate]

 

I will step out of this thread, and try to keep my forum posting to a minimum, since there is no reasoning with players who can not understand game mechanics and pvp.

 

Go on step out of this thread.

 

Gear is irrelevant, to game balance. and the rest is Skill >=Team>class.

I would love it to work this way, but sadly it doesn't.

That's one thing, which is wrong in tor.

[Dmasterr]

I would love it to work this way, but sadly it doesn't.

That's one thing, which is wrong in tor.

 

And why do you say it does not?

 

Class is not important as long as you are good enough. I had guilds be quite insistent that i play rwz with them on my dps sage, after i quit Sphinx.

 

My concealment operative is a key member of the rank 1 team on Europe. There is a high rated team that sports 1 sorc heal (full corruption) and 2 sorc dps in their main team.

 

And skill is >= team, because no team of good players will carry your butt, you need to at least pull your own weight.

 

So you see, ... Skill >=team>class, when people play the game as it is meant to be played.

 

But if you are mediocre and play with mediocre players, off course your view of the game is skewed

 

Also gear is a non-issue regarding game balance in MMO's, they are balanced around end game gear not greens and blues and whatever. Character progression is part of MMO games.

[Tathais]

And why do you say it does not?

 

Class is not important as long as you are good enough. I had guilds be quite insistent that i play rwz with them on my dps sage, after i quit Sphinx.

 

My concealment operative is a key member of the rank 1 team on Europe. There is a high rated team that sports 1 sorc heal (full corruption) and 2 sorc dps in their main team.

 

And skill is >= team, because no team of good players will carry your butt, you need to at least pull your own weight.

 

So you see, ... Skill >=team>class, when people play the game as it is meant to be played.

 

But if you are mediocre and play with mediocre players, off course your view of the game is skewed

 

Also gear is a non-issue regarding game balance in MMO's, they are balanced around end game gear not greens and blues and whatever. Character progression is part of MMO games.

 

No response to any of the above, eh?

 

One high rated Sorc on one high rated team at the upper levels of play doesn't make the class fine. I'm also not sure what you're basing these "highest ranked" statements on... to my knowledge we only have local server rankings and no world-wide rankings. There also haven't been any kind of e-sports tournaments for SWTOR as of yet, have there? (Honest question there, not sarcasm. I really don't know... so I'm asking.)

 

A lot of your evidence for Sorc being fine is based on a very small set of data. A handful of people in the perfect scenario are on high ranked teams. This doesn't mean the class is fine, it means a few highly skilled players have managed to succeed in spite of the odds. This will always happen... if there's 51 aces in a deck of cards there's still a chance of drawing a non-ace. I can't help but wonder if that high ranked Sorc player would be more effective as another healer... though to be fair, Sorc does bring unique utility to the game.

 

See my above post. Sorc should be accessible at all levels of play and shouldn't require a full set of WH gear along with a fully coordinated team to be mediocre. No other class has this requirement... and no other role has this requirement. Both DPS and Tanks stand on their own.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Tathais

[Dmasterr]

it means a few highly skilled players have managed to succeed in spite of the odds.

What odds? they are subjected to the same game mechanics as everybody else. There are no odds, there is just class potential within game mechanics limits.

 

This will always happen... if there's 51 aces in a deck of cards there's still a chance of drawing a non-ace.

How can you compare it to something purely random? you do not get good by RNG.

 

See my above post. Sorc should be accessible at all levels of play and shouldn't require a full set of WH gear along with a fully coordinated team to be mediocre. No other class has this requirement... and no other role has this requirement. Both DPS and Tanks stand on their own.

 

They are accessible on all levels of play, and do not require full WH . They require equal set of gear to their opponents. You can not reasonably expect to have the same performance in recruit gear as in WH.

 

Yes, all classes have that requirement. In a team enviroment. Tanks need healers, healers need tanks, and dps needs everything else (tanks, healers, and dps).

 

You want to survive focus fire from multiple opponents without any help from your team? SERIOUSLY?

Edited July 11, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Never_Hesitate]

Yes, all classes have that requirement. In a team enviroment. Tanks need healers, healers need tanks, and dps needs everything else(tanks, healers, and dps).

 

Here lays the problem:

A heal needs a tank. -> Good luck with that in a pug

A tank needs a heal. -> Not really

A dps needs everything else -> Really in PvP?

 

You want to survive focus fire from multiple opponents without any help from your team? SERIOUSLY?

 

And as a healer I should be able to heal myself against one dps with ease.

How should I be able to support my team if I die from one dps with no chance but running.

I think a dps should be able to make me heal just myself in order to survive, but he should not be able to kill me.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Never_Hesitate

[Darth_Philar]

Here lays the problem:

A heal needs a tank. -> Good luck with that in a pug

A tank needs a heal. -> Not really

A dps needs everything else -> Really in PvP?

 

 

 

And as a healer I should be able to heal myself against one dps with ease.

How should I be able to support my team if I die from one dps with no chance but running.

I think a dps should be able to make me heal just myself in order to survive, but he should not be able to kill me.

 

I would modify this to say that in PvP, 1 healer should be impossible for 1 DPS to kill (assuming equal gear and skill) but while being focused by the lone DPS, the healer should be required to focus all of his healing on himself to survive. This is currently not the case. Sorcerer healers cannot survive in any 1v1 situation and are forced to flee the fight completely or die.

[Dmasterr]

Here lays the problem:

A heal needs a tank. -> Good luck with that in a pug

A tank needs a heal. -> Not really

A dps needs everything else -> Really in PvP?

When was it ever a good idea to balance the game around pugs where the majority of players are mediocre at best. How can you balance a team game, around bad team play???

And as a healer I should be able to heal myself against one dps with ease.

No, you should be able to heal yourself against 1 dps . period. Having 1 dps on you should not be something trivial.

How should I be able to support my team if I die from one dps with no chance but running.

You are both taken out of the game, and is a fair trade... assuming 1v1 and no help from either side.Why should a healer be worth more than any other role?

I think a dps should be able to make me heal just myself in order to survive, but he should not be able to kill me.

 

Not only this last line contradicts your previous statements, but is in effect right now!. 1 dps can not kill a healer 1v1 with los. (provided ~equal gear level and skill)

[Never_Hesitate]

I would modify this to say that in PvP, 1 healer should be impossible for 1 DPS to kill (assuming equal gear and skill) but while being focused by the lone DPS, the healer should be required to focus all of his healing on himself to survive. This is currently not the case. Sorcerer healers cannot survive in any 1v1 situation and are forced to flee the fight completely or die.

 

Thanks that's what I meant.

[Tathais]

What odds? they are subjected to the same game mechanics as everybody else. There are no odds, there is just class potential within game mechanics limits.

 

The odds in making a weak class work for them. It's a figure of speech, the same as applied to a low-seed sports player "beating the odds" to win a championship. High ranked Sorc/Sage may exist, I'll take your word for it, but they are few and far between. It doesn't mean the class is balanced.

 

They are accessible on all levels of play, and do not require full WH . They require equal set of gear to their opponents. You can not reasonably expect to have the same performance in recruit gear as in WH.

 

I can't and don't reasonably expect equivalent performance, but I can and do expect reasonably close performance. A higher tier of gear should be better, certainly, but not so much that those in lower tiers have absolutely no chance. Especially because all three tiers are thrown together in the same queue for all warzones, both ranked and unranked. If there were separate tiers for each level of play, I would be more inclined to see your point here.

 

Yes, all classes have that requirement. In a team enviroment. Tanks need healers, healers need tanks, and dps needs everything else(tanks, healers, and dps).

 

Absolutely untrue. Tanks can guard anybody, and also bring good utility. They can do this without healers. Arguably, their DPS is lower... so without DPS it would make for a very long game. DPS is able to perform their job even without the other two classes. In fact, coordinated DPS will always win against coordinated healers, simply because the GCD limits a timely response. Try it... get 4 healers and 4 DPS. Have the 4 DPS unload all their attacks at once and see if the target lives. They won't. If a single Marauder can do 10k damage to me in 2 seconds (when I have BM gear) there's no way anybody can heal through 40k in 2 seconds.

 

You want to survive focus fire from multiple opponents without any help from your team? SERIOUSLY?

 

I'll let this slide becuase I think it's the first time you've said it, even though this has been addressed many times throughout the course of this thread. No, I'm not asking to survive focus fire from multiple opponents unaided. I'm asking to survive unaided against a single opponent unaided. Right now I can't even do that. Full BM taking 10k in 2 seconds. This isn't skill, there's a problem with the class. I thought it was a problem with damage values, but apparently other healers don't take these kinds of hits.

[Khoraji]

 

 

get 4 healers and 4 DPS. Have the 4 DPS unload all their attacks at once and see if the target lives. They won't. If a single Marauder can do 10k damage to me in 2 seconds (when I have BM gear) there's no way anybody can heal through 40k in 2 seconds.

 

Of course they wont live, you are always providing "examples" of situations where the healers just stand there.

 

How about you time it so that all 4 healers heal the target at the same time the 4 DPS do their DMG. I bet you the target will survive. Healing numbers/burst > DMG numbers/burst on average.

[Roast-Beast]

It seems to me the only words worth reading on this thread are in yellow. I am fully stat perfect combat medic, and I don't die. We do not run a tank, occasionally we run 3 healers (2 CM + 1 Scoundrel) Healers survivability has multiple synergistic properties. Your Damage classes must be good. Your off healer must be good. your strat must be good. your tactics must be good. and you must have communication! death is inevitable in rated wz's so dieing once, twice, three times is what it is. (my average death is 2 per game) this is because with my class i can hold off 4-5 "good" players for a decent amount of time, so my tactics in a 3 healer team is actually to go and solo as many opponents as possible.

 

Learn to fight, learn to live, learn to play. /thread

[Darth_Philar]

It seems to me the only words worth reading on this thread are in yellow. I am fully stat perfect combat medic, and I don't die. We do not run a tank, occasionally we run 3 healers (2 CM + 1 Scoundrel) Healers survivability has multiple synergistic properties. Your Damage classes must be good. Your off healer must be good. your strat must be good. your tactics must be good. and you must have communication! death is inevitable in rated wz's so dieing once, twice, three times is what it is. (my average death is 2 per game) this is because with my class i can hold off 4-5 "good" players for a decent amount of time, so my tactics in a 3 healer team is actually to go and solo as many opponents as possible.

 

Learn to fight, learn to live, learn to play. /thread

 

Learn to read more than the thread title. This is about Sorcerer Healers so your entire post is completely irrelevent.

[Khoraji]

Learn to read more than the thread title. This is about Sorcerer Healers so your entire post is completely irrelevent.

 

He would have to read multiple pages until the OP decided to change his mind about the other 2 healer classes.

[LancelotOC]

If a sorc needs a tank then how come a tank doesn't need a healer. If this was the design intent then they should have made it more mutually symbiotic by giving tanks a bonus for guarding healers.

 

If tanks got a 20% damage bonus when guarding a Sorc it would all make sence.

 

As it is now basically people are sugesting for Sorc healers to play they have to grovel at tanks feet for a guard or otherwise play a different pvp game for their pvp fix.

 

Please don't say tanks need a healer for heals.. we heal everyone equally as needed. If anything we heal DPS more since they are the ones getting the needed kills. If a tank is guarding we heal them, if they dont guard us we still heal them.

 

Or are we expected to not heal tanks unless they guard us and follow us around on a 15 range leash?

 

Silly design and those who defend it equally as silly. I'm sorry if people dont see it this way. Just because it seems likely this is what BW's intent was it makes absolutly no sence to me that people defend it and think it shouldnt be changed to something better. Just about anyone who plays a Sorc/Sage pure healer thinks it's a less than ideal mechanic and everyone who doesn't play one thinks it's good enough.

 

Why shouldn't it be changed to something better? It feels like this is some pissing match rather than a discussion of how to make the game better with people just taking sides rather than all coming to some consensus on what would make it better for healing Sorc/Sages and not unbalance the game.

 

It can be made better.. why not make it better? Why are we stuck with this design when the majority of people affected by it don't like it and the rest of the people affected by it arguing against making it better seemingly arguing just for the sake of arguing.

[Khoraji]

If a sorc needs a tank then how come a tank doesn't need a healer. If this was the design intent then they should have made it more mutually symbiotic by giving tanks a bonus for guarding healers.

 

 

 

Sorc/healers needs a tank... and EVERYONE needs a healer.

[islander]

sorc and sages healers deserve free beer.

[Tathais]

He would have to read multiple pages until the OP decided to change his mind about the other 2 healer classes.

 

Maybe it's just the way you wrote it, but you come off as extremely negative here. Is a discussion where something is learned and opinions change a bad thing?

 

Haha, maybe it's just a concept foreign to you Ok shameless dig there... but anyway, if I misread you I apologize. To the guy you quoted, yes apparently other healers are fine. I'm play a Sorc/Sage so I can only comment on what I'm experiencing. If you're not having these problems, great!

 

Sorc/healers needs a tank... and EVERYONE needs a healer.

 

Simply not true. DPS work just fine on their own. Tanks also do pretty good on their own... their guard protects DPS just as much as it does healers, and they are also capable of doing relevant damage. Frankly, you could remove healers from this game right now and I feel like nobody would actually notice.

[Veeius]

I have an undergeared smugg, and a barely geared bounty hunter.

 

If a mara gets on me and I don't have guard and I don't have peals and I don't have cross heals, I die, and I die FAST.

 

IF I have guard, peels, and cross heals - 3/4ths of their team won't take me down.

 

Put another way - in groups we're fine. If you try to rambo, you're going to get smacked down. If they fixed it so we could do good in 1v1, then you could put every single person on their team on my undergeared ***, and with 1 other healer, a guardian, and mabbe 1 dps, I'd spend the whole match alternating between hotting myself and /clubdance.

 

If your team is letting you die, that's their bag, not bw's.

[Rogozhi]

If a sorc needs a tank then how come a tank doesn't need a healer. If this was the design intent then they should have made it more mutually symbiotic by giving tanks a bonus for guarding healers.

 

If tanks got a 20% damage bonus when guarding a Sorc it would all make sence.

 

As it is now basically people are sugesting for Sorc healers to play they have to grovel at tanks feet for a guard or otherwise play a different pvp game for their pvp fix.

 

Please don't say tanks need a healer for heals.. we heal everyone equally as needed. If anything we heal DPS more since they are the ones getting the needed kills. If a tank is guarding we heal them, if they dont guard us we still heal them.

 

Or are we expected to not heal tanks unless they guard us and follow us around on a 15 range leash?

 

Silly design and those who defend it equally as silly. I'm sorry if people dont see it this way. Just because it seems likely this is what BW's intent was it makes absolutly no sence to me that people defend it and think it shouldnt be changed to something better. Just about anyone who plays a Sorc/Sage pure healer thinks it's a less than ideal mechanic and everyone who doesn't play one thinks it's good enough.

 

Why shouldn't it be changed to something better? It feels like this is some pissing match rather than a discussion of how to make the game better with people just taking sides rather than all coming to some consensus on what would make it better for healing Sorc/Sages and not unbalance the game.

 

It can be made better.. why not make it better? Why are we stuck with this design when the majority of people affected by it don't like it and the rest of the people affected by it arguing against making it better seemingly arguing just for the sake of arguing.

 

First: The primary incentive for a tank to guard his healers is to keep the healer alive and see his team to a win. Unfortunately people don't seem to grasp this concept very well and instead play the tank as a very tough DPS while neglecting their role of meat shield and peeler. My experience playing tanks, unfortunately not in SWTOR yet, is that it is a playstyle between DPS and healer. You have to remain aware of your teammates health and react when FF starts to happen. I don't see this happening very often.

 

Second: Some of the best teams I've seen in ranked on my server run with a sorc healer. Further, some of the best WZs I've played have been with me as my BG Merc paired with a Sorc healer. I set them as my focus target and make sure they stay alive, while they in turn pump out way more healing to the entire group than I could ever manage. Of course all of this falls apart if the tanks and DPS are neglecting to peel for us. My Merc may be able to stand toe to toe with a fully geared Marauder, but doing so takes me out of the game, and unless a DPS comes around to attack the Marauder, completely useless. This is a team game and as people have said previously it is balanced around team play---AS IT SHOULD BE.

 

Third: If you're having trouble with a bad team say something about it. When I'm in a WZ where I'm spending more time running back from spawn than I am healing I tell the team to start getting their act together. Sometimes all it takes is reminding the DPS to peel or the tank to guard SOMEONE.

 

Lastly: These forums are rife with really bad players. Take a stroll over to the Merc forums and you'll see they wrote off Merc healers as the worst in the game after 1.2. Now I see requests for them in RWZ teams in general chat. A lot of the people posting in forums are just baddies that need to L2P.

[LancelotOC]

I think that's the fix right there. The AE heal should have a second buff that interacts with guard. If someone guards a Sorc/Sage healer with the AE heal specced they get a 20% damage boost buff.

 

Healers get nothing more than guard so are not imbalanced and tanks get DPS to do as much damage as all the DPS classes do these days anyways. Tanks doing their job of guarding is rewarded and further they can actually protect healers with the extra damage they would do.

 

What difference is more classes doing more damage at this point. This kind of fix is something BW would do as well..anything to lower TTK and BW will throw millions at it to get it implemented.

Edited July 11, 2012 by LancelotOC

[Tathais]

I have an undergeared smugg, and a barely geared bounty hunter.

 

If a mara gets on me and I don't have guard and I don't have peals and I don't have cross heals, I die, and I die FAST.

 

IF I have guard, peels, and cross heals - 3/4ths of their team won't take me down.

 

Put another way - in groups we're fine. If you try to rambo, you're going to get smacked down. If they fixed it so we could do good in 1v1, then you could put every single person on their team on my undergeared ***, and with 1 other healer, a guardian, and mabbe 1 dps, I'd spend the whole match alternating between hotting myself and /clubdance.

 

If your team is letting you die, that's their bag, not bw's.

 

Would that not suggest that perhaps guard is too strong? Also it's apparently more a problem with sorc/sage... the other healers appear to have more survivability than we do. Anyway, if you're terrible w/o guard and godmode with it, then things should probably get normalized so you're all right without guard and pretty good with it.

[Laforet]

I would agree with the "healer needs tank to be viable" if all DPS classes actually had a debuff on them that they would make 50% less damage if not on a 10m radius of another DPS or tank.

 

Cut the crap please, why do i need babysitting to be viable and no other role in the game needs?

 

"Healers are too strong with guards and team mates!!"

 

Oh yeah? TELL ME WHICH CLASS/ROLE ISNT TOO STRONG WITH ADEQUADE SUPPORT BEHIND THEM?

 

My rated groups guards important DPS people when needed, we peel off dps when they are being *****, that makes them very strong indeed.

 

You guys are so full of crap its coming out from the top of your heads.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Laforet