Our Data from Ranked WZs Shows PTs/Maras Perhaps Not So OPd

[DarthNuke]

 

Class # Median DMG Average DMG

PowerTech/Vanguard 372 322k 364k

Marauders/Sentinels 402 295k 339k

Snipers/Gunslingers 21 295k 341k

Sorc/Sage 50 288k 322k

Jugg/Guardian 42 286k 323k

Assassin/Shadow 83 277k 297k

Operative/Scoundrel 22 254k 265k

Merc/Commando 20 238k 242k

 

I knew it was bad...but.....wow. The damage numbers aren't optimal data points, based on WZ objectives and undergeared recruits. We all know how out of control the geared out Pyros and Maras are blowing stuff up.

 

The ratio of classes though. That's a telling tale.

 

Nerfs inbound, I'll bet on it.

[Annex]

I got news for you... If BioWare nerfs the class based on what is being played in WZ's... The Sentinel/Marauder population would retaliate. We'd all roll Sorcerers specifically to overpopulate the class and get them nerfed. Anyone who had any beef with any class would do the same.

 

BioWare has already said the metrics are fine. They aren't nerfing Sentinels. Please stop trying to get them nerfed.

 

BS. Half the sentinel pop are rerollers to FOTM.

 

They will simply play their old class again.

 

BW will be making balance changes, you wait. Noone can ignore a 30x class imba in RWZ. Not even BW.

[Achyllis]

I knew it was bad...but.....wow. The damage numbers aren't optimal data points, based on WZ objectives and undergeared recruits. We all know how out of control the geared out Pyros and Maras are blowing stuff up.

 

The ratio of classes though. That's a telling tale.

 

Nerfs inbound, I'll bet on it.

 

No nerfs coming. BW wants fewer ACs to balance so they have made several worthless for PvP. This way players reroll and take care of balance issues for them. Not to mention that every level 50 alt is free money for BW.

[fungihoujo]

BS. Half the sentinel pop are rerollers to FOTM.

 

They will simply play their old class again.

 

BW will be making balance changes, you wait. Noone can ignore a 30x class imba in RWZ. Not even BW.

 

BW "Is that a challenge?"

 

BW can ignore it- they *********** ignored a 400k sub loss. Guaranteed when another 400k leave at the end of August they'll ignore that too. SWTOR will drop below a million subs if 1.4 doesn't reign in PTs and marauders, and overall the low TTK- while giving something to DPS ops, sorcs, mercs.

 

Y'know, it'd be beneficial to you whining about how many healers there are in WZ right now cross healing and all that for those classes to get DPS buffs too. Even as bad as healing is right now- fact is, for all three classes, DPS is considerably worse. I didn't heal before 1.2, not much anyway- I went it a few times, but 90% of the time I was a DPS sorc, and I'm not the only one- but we all recognized, and same with mercs and ops- that even with healing being nerfed so hard, you were more valuable as a healer.

 

If BW made our DPS specs actually viable- able to kill, move and survive like marauders, PTs and sins- you'd see many of those healers go back to being DPS- because most of those healers, like me, were DPS before. But as long as those DPS specs are worthless- people who want to be DPS, but don't have the time to both level to 50, patience to do so through pve (since levelling in pvp is slow as hell), as well as gear up to BM again or worse- to WH which is a dreadfully massive grind- they have a geared 50, they'll just switch to healing.

 

Now, would they go back to DPS? Would have to regear a little- but honestly other than alacrity for the most part healing gear is fine for DPS- might have to get a few pieces with the right set bonuses.

 

 

PS- I do like the extra data that showed sorcs die considerably more than any other AC- proves everything we've been saying completely correct.

[AlyxDinas]

The Sentinel/Marauder population would retaliate. We'd all roll Sorcerers specifically to overpopulate the class and get them nerfed.

 

Why do you insist upon speaking for people other than yourself?

[Ashanor]

Problem with this assessment.

 

You have a larger sample size for Vang/Pyro and Sent/Maur. That is a little unfair don't you think. Your sample size of all the other classes is relatively small in comparison. This can easily skew results.

 

On top of this, you must consider this. Melee assist trains are ALWAYS popular in MMO PvP. What classes best represent melee DPS in this game? That's right, Sentinel and Vanguard (Marauder and Powertech). The other "melee dps" specs are very underwhelming. Scoundrel? DPS Guardian? lol

Edited July 8, 2012 by Ashanor

[Synxos]

Do people still not get that his data shows PTs and Maras are indeed op?

[fungihoujo]

Do people still not get that his data shows PTs and Maras are indeed op?

 

No, I think everyone gets that by now... well, except for a couple of players who only have marauders anyway and fear the nerf.

[Ntranced]

No, I think everyone gets that by now... well, except for a couple of players who only have marauders anyway and fear the nerf.

 

There can't be many that were originally Marauders?

[Beakertanks]

Not so sure about Mara's but I am a shadow tank. Nerf the stuffing out of Powertech DPS though. They are most certainly OP. As an example did a rated huttball yesterday and for 14 of the 16 players the highest DPS was 74k. The two Powertechs did over 200k. Broken for sure.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Do people still not get that his data shows PTs and Maras are indeed op?

 

His data shows that they are heavily played out of a sample size of around 10 teams. They do not show that they are overpowered.

[BurnsTwoThree]

His data shows that they are heavily played out of a sample size of around 10 teams. They do not show that they are overpowered.

 

Yeah they're totally played for any other reason than that. Don't kid yourself.

 

The fact that people constantly play against them and can see the numbers they put out in conjunction with the OPs numbers is what makes it incredibly obvious that they are overpowered.

 

Stop purposely covering your eyes to everything you don't want to see.

Edited July 9, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[ProfessorWalsh]

Yeah they're totally played for any other reason than that. Don't kid yourself.

 

The fact that people constantly play against them and can see the numbers they put out in conjunction with the OPs numbers is what makes it incredibly obvious that they are overpowered.

 

Stop purposely covering your eyes to everything you don't want to see.

 

I shouldn't reply to this.

 

However...

 

I am not covering my eyes to anything. You need to stop looking for problems that don't exist and focus on learning how to play your class better.

 

The data shows that all the DPS classes are pretty close together. BioWare said Sentinels/Marauders were the highest damage class, and then the highest damage ranged class were the Gunslingers and Snipers. The damage numbers confirm this. The thing is this game has 2 kinds of DPS.

 

Single target DPS and AoE DPS.

 

Sorcerers are usually AoE DPS which are very advantageous when trying to prevent a cap.

Marauders are usually single target DPS which are very advantageous when trying to acquire a cap.

 

Use your tools and all is well.

 

My point stands, you can't take the numbers, sampled from probably 10 different teams, and call it "assured" by any stretch. This is especially true when using rated Warzones because the game tries to put rated people up against similarly rated people. If, on the OP's server, a team that runs say 4 Marauders, or 2 Marauders and 2 Pyrotechs, happens to be close to their rating then they may face that team 3, 4, or even 5 times as much as anyone else.

 

If that is the case then of course they are going to show up higher.

 

The only way to know for sure is if the OP put up a list of the number of actual players rather than just what classes appeared in their maps.

 

Like I said, on Ebon Hawk the Sentinel isn't the highest played class, nor is the Vanguard, if they were as OP'ed as you say there would be a lot more of them.

[matslarson]

Sorcerers are usually AoE DPS which are very advantageous when trying to prevent a cap.

Marauders are usually single target DPS which are very advantageous when trying to acquire a cap.

 

This may be the first ever example of factual information posted by Professor Walsh.

 

However...

 

The pvp maps in this game are themselves tuned to give the defenders a significant advantage, meaning characters with a defensive advantage are completely unnecessary when you can stack offensive DPS and rely on the maps' built-in defensive advantages while bursting down your opponents.

 

If it was just as easy, for example, to take a point on ACW as it was to defend it, your point would be both factual and valid.

[stringcat]

This is true, it is much easier to LoS my Sniper then my Powertech.

 

But my sniper puts out more burst, Uptime i'd probably say my Powertech has more "durability" but i'd say my sniper is more annoying till i die...

 

Mainly because if I catch you out solo on my Sniper, and I want to be a dick...I don't actually have to kill ya, I can basically perma keep you in the area with CC alone.

 

This is fun. This one healer I babysat started punching me in frustration.

 

Alas, people typically rescue their healers. (Sometimes "finally" rather than "at once" in PUG groups)

[warultima]

All I see again from the OP's 1st post is theres more marauders in rWZ then all Snipers, Operatives, Assassins, Sorcs, Mercs, Juggs combined.

 

The total # Marauders + Power Techs are more than double the total # of the rest of the 6 classes.

 

On average in rWZ it's 16 times more likely to get at least 1 Maras or PTs than the 1 of the rest 6 ACs.

 

Maras and PTs just coincidentally happen to be the highest total damage dealers out of all the ACs, beating out even most frequent the AoE users with main single target dps.

 

Then the OP posted the kill/death ratio.

It showed that sorcs are indeed the squishiest class in the entire game. Sorcs die the most. Sorcs has some of the lowest damage per death ratio. And the "high mobility" aspect of Sorcs did NOT help them survive better than nearly pure turrent classes like snipers. In fact sniper is the most immobile class that helds the crown of damage/kill vs death ratio.

 

In conclusion of mainly the 2 posts (around 290 total rWZ games played according to the OP)

 

The statement "Sorcs are given the crappiest burst in the entire game + the crappiest survivalbility in the entire due to them being super mobile and can chain CC someone to death and are unlikely to die" is false. At least in rated WZ sorcs utilities and controls and mobility did NOT help them ENOUGH compare to the overall performance of the other 7 ACs. not only they did less damage less burst and they also DIE the MOST.

 

The statement "There's no AC discrepency in rWZ, PT and Mara is not more popular than [insert any other 6 ACs on the imp side] in rWZ" is false they are easily 1000% (10 times) more popular than some of the ACs recorded.

 

Some uncertain statements collected from some posters that cannot be proven by the given data.

 

1. All good players simply happen to pick Marauder or a Power Tech as their AC of choice in rWZ.

 

2. All PT and Maras players in rWZ are 8 to 10 times more skilled than all the players of the other 6 ACs judging by their sample size vs the rest.

 

3. Powertech and Maras are NOT overpowered, they do happen to dish out on average the most damage than any other ACs but it's only a little so its negligible.

 

4. PT and Maras are NOT overpowered, they did the most damage on average because all good and skill players play them hence its reasonable they do better than the players playing the other 6 ACs. The players of Snipers, Operatives, Assassins, Sorcs, Mercs, Juggs are doing less damage simply because they were out played by the PT/Mara players even tho PT/Mara are about 800% more popular in rWZs.

 

5. In rWZ AoE/DoT/Splash dps are as good as healthy single target heavy burst in rWZ.

 

6. The other 6 ACs are fine, people just need to learn to play like how all the PT/Mara players in rWZ has learned to play extremely skillfully.

 

just top of my head...

[Carcarah]

Mate, you've posted the data but looks like data analysis is not your stronger skill.

 

The first three classes PT + Mara + Guns do in average a min and a max dps of 304 amd 348

The remaining 5 classes do in average a min and a max dps of 228 amd 289

 

This means that in average PT + Mara + Guns do between 21% and 33% more dmg than any other classes.

 

But this gets worst since some of the remaining classes have AoE as their main PvP spec means that single target dmg of PT + Mara + Guns is way way way higher then 33%.

 

Thanks for your effort in trying to convince the community that your FTW class is not OP.

 

Now that you have the entire raw data, run some statistic analysis (use excel its easy) and tell us in a normal distribution what is the probability with 95% confidence a PT or a Marauder will do more than 500 dps and compare to other classes.

[BurnsTwoThree]

The data shows that all the DPS classes are pretty close together. BioWare said Sentinels/Marauders were the highest damage class,.

 

Source?

 

Sorry but your single target classes do far too much damage in bursts and the numbers are for far too high for any other class in this game at the moment. The only thing they are balanced for is high-end PvE which we both know you do not take a part in.

 

No one cares if they are the top damage dealing classes in the game. If they are going to be top damage classes like you consistently lie about them to be then fine, let them put out more damage than the other classes.

 

The issue is that they hit far too high of numbers way too easily with the amount of control each class has. If they are going to be that powerful they either need to have vastly less control or less uptime. 100% uptime for classes that can hit for 30% of your health at any given time is not balanced by any means nor is it "looking" for a reason to have them nerfed. It is more than justified for those two classes to have drastic reduction in burst and given far better sustained damage.

Also the issue is NOT solely overall damage output. It's TTK and it is also the max hits that classes can achieve at this stage of the game being scaled poorly.

 

Misconceptions are bad, you should stop them.

 

 

Professor Walsh: "Bioware said so" ™

 

When the extent of your knowledge is "Bioware said so" you should stop posting.

 

Mate, you've posted the data but looks like data analysis is not your stronger skill.

 

Thanks for your effort in trying to convince the community that your FTW class is not OP.

This guy sums you up pretty well there Walsh.

Edited July 9, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[KhalDrogoe]

Everyone is missing the point of this thread. The bottom line... Buff Mercenary Pyrotechs.

 

The rest of the classes are fine to me it seems.

Edited July 9, 2012 by KhalDrogoe

[shegoy]

Were here basing our opinions off total dps/ class/spec numbers.

 

What about all the other factors can we assume all the other classes involved in the matches have their gear and stats optimised to the best it can be in regard to everyone involved? are these so called OP classes breaking the damage board with sub par gear stats , Are healers being marked and focus dropped making them appear to be more squishy than they are?

 

No we cant unless someone sets up an experiment to gather full data including class/spec numbers gear and stat break downs for each class involved who did what damage, who was being healed and buffed etc.

 

I have a lvl 32 PT Pyro who iv levelled up through PVP, and although i can be in the top 3 damage dealer wise if im left alone to single out targets, the leader board itself doesn't show the full picture. I don't personally feel my sole contribution is capable of turning the tide of a battle against competent player/s that know what their doing and have good teamwork and i surely don't have an easy time attempting to either, Sorc healers can be my easiest targets however i can struggle to take down a Commando Healer by locking him out of his heal rotation it becomes impossible if he is being supported, un-supported myself i go down pretty quickly the minute the flame icon above my head is spotted im focused down and dead within 3-4 sec.

 

There are two sides to every Argument and until you can broaden your mind as too look outside of the tunnel vision you have acquired against the damage dealing capability and numbers and see the factors that make up that damage and why that person was allowed to accumulate such numbers i.e being ignored on the battlefield as you where all focusing on healers etc, maybe his survivability was exceptional along with his dps due to him being supported with heals,shielded etc. the one thing we can not record from stating numbers is team play and strategy

 

I don't worry about the total damage done at the end of the match any more as it does not reflect mine or anyone else's contribution to playing the objective and prefer to give my nomination of MVP to the best healer or objective/protection score and so do not see myself as a pvp breaking class either as WZ's are won based on objectives rather than damage dealt, i too have many bad days in pvp and it will be the same at 50, it has all to do with the competence and teamwork of the opponents i face.

Edited July 9, 2012 by shegoy

[RendakFel]

if you want a completely mirrored game, try checkers. I hear it is cheap. If you like a challenge, try chess. ELO in chess is crazy.

 

Each class has strengths and weaknesses. A well apportioned RWZ team built to top the rankings will have a plethora of classes because the utlity each brings in necessary in the various different warzones. However, these teams will also NOT contain certain classes. The perception of PT's and Mara's as over powered because of their capacity to be a "TDM" style class, doesn't reflect an accurate view of the state of the whole game.

 

Powertechs and Marauders are main stay bruiser classes designed to hold and/or break the middle of a warzone "line". The numbers other players get seem low because they try and play any other non-PT/Mara like a PT/Marauder. Yeah, its shocking, but a DPS commando isn't a Marauder, and won't do well if they try to go toe to toe with a marauder like a marauder goes toe to toe with them. This is symptomatic of players not comprehending that playing their class is less about some PvE rotation, and more about understanding how to play YOUR CLASS verse OTHER CLASSES in organized GROUP COMBAT. Optimal dps rotations to maximize dps output matter in pve, but have little bearing on pvp. The mark of playing skilled opponents is in discovering that you are never permitted to perform optimally or without harassment. Due to this, front loaded classes appear to be "OP" because they are able to dish out their dmg on their terms, prior to being interrupted. Dmg is important, but not more then objectives. It is the objective of rwz to "win" objectively. Pure dmg won't get you there, as is evident by the lack of 8 dps teams. Out gunning the other team obviously makes it easier, however.

 

This isn't really a Learn 2 Play issue, as forum go-ers like to over simplify it as. More or less, its learn to team build. Burst and survivability are core aspects of pvp, but no more so then organization. Attempting to override good organization by stacking Pyro tech's or Marauders will only carry a team as far as running into a team that has good organization.

 

I personally don't think the issue is that TTK is too short. 2k+ rated teams vs. 2k+ rated teams generally result in a near stalemate unless one side out maneuvers the other side tactically. These games generally have a very low body count (around 20kills for a full Voidstar, with multiple players breaking 6-800k dmg).

 

Trying to balance the game around unranked, pug warzones is stupid. TTK is super short in unranked warzones, because you have people (like me), in absolute best in slot 3 shotting people in Recruit gear with green relics. Sure, it doesn't seem balanced, and it shouldn't. If you want to eliminate burst, just rewind this game to January, when the forums were literally exploding with posts about QQ MOAR LIGHTNING, and warzones with 6 dps sorcs. If you want to removed burst, get ready for perma snares from sorcs (again).

 

Imo, the only AC that absolutely must be on a RWZ in a high rating is a Marauder/Sentinel AC. With no adrenals, the Bloodthirst buff is too crucial, never mind predation. Good snipers are extremely rare, but that is the only thing keeping them off this list in greater numbers. The class isn't easy to play and very few can handle the abilities + awareness + resource management. This is not to say its balanced. DPS sorcs and DPS/healer merc's have no real business in high rated RWZ teams currently. These classes need buffs to make them viable for consideration.

 

TLDR: PT's/Mara's are over represented more due to the difficulties in effectively playing the competitively balanced AC's (Snipers/DPS Operatives). 2k+ RWZ indicate the issue isn't with PT's/Mara's, its with the under performance of other classes to make them viable in the mix. I.E. it's not the damage numbers being dished out, is the lack of other classes from being able to reach those numbers more readily.

[fungihoujo]

This may be the first ever example of factual information posted by Professor Walsh.

 

However...

 

The pvp maps in this game are themselves tuned to give the defenders a significant advantage, meaning characters with a defensive advantage are completely unnecessary when you can stack offensive DPS and rely on the maps' built-in defensive advantages while bursting down your opponents.

 

If it was just as easy, for example, to take a point on ACW as it was to defend it, your point would be both factual and valid.

 

This right here- and frankly, with how fast a sorc will crumple- it'd be better to bring a stealth class along for harrying the enemy who is trying to cap, since they won't die the second they interrupt.

[shegoy]

Healers in numbers in a WZ are a problem due to cross healing each-other which probably fuelled the QQ about them in the past by them keeping themselves alive whilst stil offering heals to team m8's you need Maras/PTs because they are the only ones with burst strong enough to shut healers down

[BurnsTwoThree]

Healers in numbers in a WZ are a problem due to cross healing each-other which probably fuelled the QQ about them in the past by them keeping themselves alive whilst stil offering heals to team m8's you need Maras/PTs because they are the only ones with burst strong enough to shut healers down

 

Yeah when there's 4-5 in normal WZs.

 

You wouldn't get anything accomplished in RWZs and you would subject yourself to "ties" aka random wins/losses if you tried that in RWZs.

 

The problem is that they made changes based on a faulty PvP system with tons of casual players chiming in on how they couldn't make a dent on a healer when geared DPS could solo any healers they wanted to.

[TonyDragonflame]

Results of pre-season of ranked wz will be:

 

1. Team imbalance: 9/10 best pvp teams are Imperials

 

2. Class imbalance: 8/10 best pvp teams including:

pt dps

pt tanks

maras

snipers

sorc healers

op healers

sin tanks

 

other 2/10 best teams also can have:

jugg dps

jugg tanks

sin dps

merc healers

 

no one good team (with seldom exceptions) have not:

op dps

merc dps

sorc dps